Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Red Rick]

I'm usually not a fan of whining. But Remco is right to moan his ass off. The coach should be sacked. Remco could have got a medal. Wout couldn't. The end.

That's all after finding out Van Aert had a bad day. They were a good Stuyven sprint away from silver so that should hardly be the reason.

I think it is a no-go to first say you agree to the tactics and then go complain about it in the media. It only creates a rift in the national team for future races.

 

[topcat]

That's all after finding out Van Aert had a bad day. They were a good Stuyven sprint away from silver so that should hardly be the reason.

I think it is a no-go to first say you agree to the tactics and then go complain about it in the media. It only creates a rift in the national team for future races.

Stuyven couldn't sprint cause he did too much work for Wout. Then after all that work from Stuyven and Remco, Wout pops up " It's only me. Actually I'm dead, try to make the best out of this mess". There has to be a Remco option (and a Vino option).
Anyway, the coach should be the fall guy here.

 

[noob]

Anyone remember how someone wrote during the tour that if he was Vingegaard he would feel lonely (not having enough help from his team). The tweet Pog liked.

Also where can I see that talkshow? Not that I will understand a thing, but I want to see the spectacle of a cycling show discussing tactics with those random people :O

 

[Mayomaniac]

I'm usually not a fan of whining. But Remco is right to moan his ass off. The coach should be sacked. Remco could have got a medal. Wout couldn't. The end.

The thing is, what if Remco gets a medal (not gold) but Wout ends up winning the bunch sprint behind?
You get the same kind of drama that we have now. I don't want to defend the coach too much because their tactics didn't make too much sense, but would you trust Remco's tactics in a big race if he can't just drop the other with pure strength? He hasn't shown that he's a tactical master and he has no sprint, are you sure that he wouldn't pull much more than all the other riders in the front group? No team radios, that also makes it a bit harder. They probably could have avoided this kind of thing by openly talking it out with all the team members involved before the race, trying to get a special permission after talking 1 on 1 with your coach is also a bit sneaky, tbh.

 

[tobydawq]

Anyone remember how someone wrote during the tour that if he was Vingegaard he would feel lonely (not having enough help from his team). The tweet Pog liked.

Also where can I see that talkshow? Not that I will understand a thing, but I want to see the spectacle of a cycling show discussing tactics with those random people :O

I think that was Janez Brajkovic (I didn't see Tadej liking it, though) but it seems like he has deleted his Twitter account.

 

[Blanco]

Stuyven couldn't sprint cause he did too much work for Wout. Then after all that work from Stuyven and Remco, Wout pops up " It's only me. Actually I'm dead, try to make the best out of this mess". There has to be a Remco option (and a Vino option).
Anyway, the coach should be the fall guy here.

Coach should be the fall guy indeed, and Remco could just keep his mouth shut about it. But he couldn't do it...

 

[noob]

I think that was Janez Brajkovic (I didn't see Tadej liking it, though) but it seems like he has deleted his Twitter account.

Tadej did like it. There was a ps in LR podcast and I went to twitter to check it out myself, and it was hilarious

 

[Extinction]

Evenepoel if in good shape, now has the right to demand that he be co-leader if Wout is fit. Then, as they say, let the best man win (or loose as the case may be). But let them both be protected. At any rate, the Belgian coach this year should be uncerimoniously fired, for what a moronic gameplan, what a waste of talent. How is this possible coming from Belgium, I ask myself?

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Haha, gotta say I enjoy some nice internal fighting of overpowered teams/nations, too bad they won't race together for 12 months now.

In principle, Remco is right but if he can't make his stance in the teammeeting beforehand clear it's a bit cheap to complain afterwards.
In a way it's a bit amusing how both him and WVA have now missed the opportunity to look the gracious nice guys. Remco should've just played nice along afterwards, say something like "I gave it all, the crowds were amazing, sadly it didn't work out for us" and everyone loves him and he gets his chance probably next time. And WVA could've responded to his complaints with a simple "I understand his frustrations, he probably had the best legs that day, we made tactical mistakes." - gracious leader, story over. Instead he bitches back and looks even more egoistic.
But I guess that's just normal among overly motivated elite athletes, lot of ego clashing, at least its good for entertainment value.

 

[peterfin]

I think that 95% of the people who discuss this "Remco vs Wout battle" haven't actually seen the Extra Time show. While De Wolf and Van der Poel were questioning the tactics and De Wolf in a very blunt way, Remco was very mature and honest in his answers and was not questioning the coach. Yes, he had some doubts about his own role and he was also honest in telling the coach during the race (while being in a great spot) that his legs where very good but the coach confirmed that they would still go all-in for Wout with Jasper apparantly as a fall back and not him. It was only then that things where absolutely clear for him. To me this means that, before that moment, Vanthourenout never said in very clear words that Remco was only there to help. Remco was fine with it. He actually said that it was better this way. Of course, in the end he was disappointed that there was no medal for Belgium while there were opportunities (for him and Jasper). He had hoped that Wout was honest about his "bad legs" from the moment he felt it.

To me, it looks like the media wants to polarise things. It helps in selling articles. They also know that Remco is very open in his communication, something I like about him but that can be misused. I can also imagine that Wout, being emotionally involved, was not at all pleased with the show and in particular with the words of De Wolf. If he listened carefully, he would understand that Remco was not making a 180 degree turn. Both have clashed indirectly before when Remco made that comment about Groenewegen after his crash with Jacobsen. I think we will see more of this in the future and Remco will probably end up being the "bad guy" every single time, not because of who he his but due to his direct style of communication. If you can't do good after putting aside your own ambitions and going all-in for the team, there is little more you can do besides keeping your mouth shut. However, I think (and hope) he will never do that.

 

[Wvv]

In a way it's a bit amusing how both him and WVA have now missed the opportunity to look the gracious nice guys. Remco should've just played nice along afterwards, say something like "I gave it all, the crowds were amazing, sadly it didn't work out for us" and everyone loves him and he gets his chance probably next time. And WVA could've responded to his complaints with a simple "I understand his frustrations, he probably had the best legs that day, we made tactical mistakes." - gracious leader, story over. Instead he bitches back and looks even more egoistic.
But I guess that's just normal among overly motivated elite athletes, lot of ego clashing, at least its good for entertainment value.

Agreed.

I think that 95% of the people who discuss this "Remco vs Wout battle" haven't actually seen the Extra Time show. While De Wolf and Van der Poel were questioning the tactics and De Wolf in a very blunt way, Remco was very mature and honest in his answers and was not questioning the coach. Yes, he had some doubts about his own role and he was also honest in telling the coach during the race (while being in a great spot) that his legs where very good but the coach confirmed that they would still go all-in for Wout with Jasper apparantly as a fall back and not him. It was only then that things where absolutely clear for him. To me this means that, before that moment, Vanthourenout never said in very clear words that Remco was only there to help. Remco was fine with it. He actually said that it was better this way. Of course, in the end he was disappointed that there was no medal for Belgium while there were opportunities (for him and Jasper). He had hoped that Wout was honest about his "bad legs" from the moment he felt it.

To me, it looks like the media wants to polarise things. It helps in selling articles. They also know that Remco is very open in his communication, something I like about him but that can be misused. I can also imagine that Wout, being emotionally involved, was not at all pleased with the show and in particular with the words of De Wolf. If he listened carefully, he would understand that Remco was not making a 180 degree turn. Both have clashed indirectly before when Remco made that comment about Groenewegen after his crash with Jacobsen. I think we will see more of this in the future and Remco will probably end up being the "bad guy" every single time, not because of who he his but due to his direct style of communication. If you can't do good after putting aside your own ambitions and going all-in for the team, there is little more you can do besides keeping your mouth shut. However, I think (and hope) he will never do that.

Agreed.

 

[Volderke]

I am now a bit more critical of Remco. His words were really those of a 21-year old who still has a lot to learn.
He might be right he could have done better, but it's not smart to say it out loud after the race. Especially not when he did some dubious moves:

1. while Remco said he was ordered to not let any dangerous move go, you could argue that Cosnefroy, at km 180, is NOT dangerous. He is only dangerous BECAUSE Evenepoel choose to follow and to pull with him. A smart response was to not follow that move, and only react when 3-4 more riders from other countries would react. Or another smart response would be to let another rider of the Belgian team follow the move without taking pulls (someone like Benoot, Teuns, Campenaerts,...). Remco decided to follow, and with that move alone he overreacted with doing his job he was supposed to do, and compromised his potential of riding alongside the favourites until very deep in the finale.
2. In hindsight, WvA and Stuyven did way too much work to chase the Evenepoel group. They didn't have to do anything than to follow Alaphilippe. At that moment, they decided it would be wise to get to the front ASAP and get rid of anyone else in the chasing group. Fact is that they had 3 more Belgians in that chase group (but also Pogacar, Almeida, Sagan, Matthews,...). So they ordered Remco to set the pace so no one would come back. If Remco really wanted to help WvA, he should have tried to pull as long as possible, not as hard as possible until he would crack completely.
3. If Remco knew that WvA and Stuyven were team leaders, he should know that making the race super hard is NOT the best way to bring those riders to the local laps, with guys like Alaphilippe in the same group.

The evil guy on my right shoulder asks if Remco knew this, and thought 'well, I will show them I have better legs, and with those better legs I will crush WvA and Stuyven, and if they are good enough they'll survive and maybe win this and I will be the perfect helper, and if not, Alaphilippe will win this and I can claim I was one of the best and they served me wrong with my role in this race'.

 

[kingjr]

The evil guy on my right shoulder asks if Remco knew this, and thought 'well, I will show them I have better legs, and with those better legs I will crush WvA and Stuyven, and if they are good enough they'll survive and maybe win this and I will be the perfect helper, and if not, Alaphilippe will win this and I can claim I was one of the best and they served me wrong with my role in this race'.

That's actually what, before the race, I thought (and hoped) would happen, but when he followed Cosnefroy I thought "guess not"... it just seemed way too early from any viewpoint.

 

[Red Rick]

Maybe he thought he'd get a better group by joining the Cosnefroy attack than he ended up getting, but it's still just not a smart move in any case.

I wonder if Stuyven and Van Aert simply didn't trust Evenepoel enough or if they were really worried about guys like Sagan and Pogacar who were all struggling badly.

Lot of bad tactics all around. I'd say Stuyven should be the final pure domestique remaining on the circuit or a plan B for the Van Aert role if something happens, but Evenepoel should 100% have been the alternate leader.

 

[Extinction]

Haha, gotta say I enjoy some nice internal fighting of overpowered teams/nations, too bad they won't race together for 12 months now.

In principle, Remco is right but if he can't make his stance in the teammeeting beforehand clear it's a bit cheap to complain afterwards.
In a way it's a bit amusing how both him and WVA have now missed the opportunity to look the gracious nice guys. Remco should've just played nice along afterwards, say something like "I gave it all, the crowds were amazing, sadly it didn't work out for us" and everyone loves him and he gets his chance probably next time. And WVA could've responded to his complaints with a simple "I understand his frustrations, he probably had the best legs that day, we made tactical mistakes." - gracious leader, story over. Instead he bitches back and looks even more egoistic.
But I guess that's just normal among overly motivated elite athletes, lot of ego clashing, at least its good for entertainment value.

To the bold that's not how it works in the real world. Besides Remco was given an ambiguous strategy by those in power, said he needed clarification, because he felt he had the form to be given his chance under certain conditions. He was then given a big fat no, those under certain conditions indeed manifested themselves (namely Wout was wanting in the decisive moment). Consequently, he made his case in the team meeting and thus has every right to make known how poorly managed he was.

Wout, for his part, and I have gotten this sense from his other comments, is an egomaniac tool who thinks the world owes him something. Go and win the Tour then Wout, if you are so good.

 

[Rackham]

In fairness to Remco Evenepoel, it should be noted the entire build up narrative to the world championship was twisted against him.

Wout van Aert himself said one month ago via the media "There should only be one leader... me" (words to that effect). Then Eddie Merckx publicly said Evenepoel isn't a team player (& insinuated he shouldn't have been selected). So Evenepoel's entire performance would be judged on how well he served Wout van Aert. Clearly he wasn't happy about that (hence his requests to be given a free role at some point), but that was the official tactic & pre-race conversation.

And Wout van Aert then went & delivered a subpar performance which only further complicated matters. In reality WvA could have taken some advice from his own teammate Primoz Roglic, i.e. who after the Planche des Belles Filles disaster apologized (he didn't have to per se, but he did) & put all the blame on himself. I mean even if he didn't believe it entirely, it's expected of a team leader to take responsibility & accept responsibility when sh*t hits the fan.

WvA meanwhile just vaguely justified his poor showing with a "I'm human" comment (like that excused the pre-race requests to be sole leader) & didn't really thank anyone or apologize to anyone (& certainly not to Evenepoel).

It's easy to look at this as a matter of a 21 year old showing immaturity & poor judgement with regards to post-race remarks, but the entire "oeuvre" of the world championship (i.e. the rider who wanted to be sole team leader & wanted to control the media & public narrative) was WvA's.

It was basically WvA's very own Planche des Belles Filles moment & his post race attitude pales by comparison to his famous Jumbo Visma teammate. That's just a fact IMO.

 

[peterfin]

I am now a bit more critical of Remco. His words were really those of a 21-year old who still has a lot to learn.
He might be right he could have done better, but it's not smart to say it out loud after the race. Especially not when he did some dubious moves:

1. while Remco said he was ordered to not let any dangerous move go, you could argue that Cosnefroy, at km 180, is NOT dangerous. He is only dangerous BECAUSE Evenepoel choose to follow and to pull with him. A smart response was to not follow that move, and only react when 3-4 more riders from other countries would react. Or another smart response would be to let another rider of the Belgian team follow the move without taking pulls (someone like Benoot, Teuns, Campenaerts,...). Remco decided to follow, and with that move alone he overreacted with doing his job he was supposed to do, and compromised his potential of riding alongside the favourites until very deep in the finale.
2. In hindsight, WvA and Stuyven did way too much work to chase the Evenepoel group. They didn't have to do anything than to follow Alaphilippe. At that moment, they decided it would be wise to get to the front ASAP and get rid of anyone else in the chasing group. Fact is that they had 3 more Belgians in that chase group (but also Pogacar, Almeida, Sagan, Matthews,...). So they ordered Remco to set the pace so no one would come back. If Remco really wanted to help WvA, he should have tried to pull as long as possible, not as hard as possible until he would crack completely.
3. If Remco knew that WvA and Stuyven were team leaders, he should know that making the race super hard is NOT the best way to bring those riders to the local laps, with guys like Alaphilippe in the same group.

The evil guy on my right shoulder asks if Remco knew this, and thought 'well, I will show them I have better legs, and with those better legs I will crush WvA and Stuyven, and if they are good enough they'll survive and maybe win this and I will be the perfect helper, and if not, Alaphilippe will win this and I can claim I was one of the best and they served me wrong with my role in this race'.

I think you are putting too much thought in it. The French said openly that they would attack early so I can imagine that the task was to join the attack whoever was in a good position. It was not a great move indeed, somebody else should have joined the French, but it does tell me that Remco was not racing to win for himself. Also, Remco didn't know how much the gap was behind him when WVA and Stuyven joined. They don't have earphones. WVA told him to pull so he did. How can he properly assess that he is pulling too hard and that the gap was growing to 2 minutes? The coach couldn't get near him. Making the race super hard was part of the game plan and not Remco's idea. The idea was that Belgium had the strongest rider who would outsprint anyone after a hard race.

 

[kingjr]

In fairness to Remco Evenepoel, it should be noted the entire build up narrative to the world championship was twisted against him.

Dunno, he explicitly said after the Euros that he would do everything he can to help Wout.

 

[Bonimenier]

Dunno, he explicitly said after the Euros that he would do everything he can to help Wout.

The critic that he wouldn't ride for anyone else started weeks before that.

 

[Rackham]

Dunno, he explicitly said after the Euros that he would do everything he can to help Wout.

And he had to keep on repeating that like a mantra, or else he'd be condemned as a "bad" rider for the national team.

WvA made this reality (i.e. all for Wout) in the world championship so he has to own it. It's not complicated. The entire narrative was "what's good for Wout van Aert is good for the Belgian team". Any other rider going solo for himself was viewed as a problem. WvA = Belgian National Team on Sunday & vice versa.

WvA faltered in the task he'd asked for (in fact demanded), so he just has to deal with it & own the defeat. That's what team leaders do. The fire WvA refers to (i.e. saying Evenepoel is pouring oil onto it) didn't burn out because WvA himself did nothing to put it out either.

This isn't even rocket science, i.e. most riders man-up & take responsibility when things go bad. That's also how other riders accept to work for them again later.

 

[Volderke]

I think you are putting too much thought in it. The French said openly that they would attack early so I can imagine that the task was to join the attack whoever was in a good position. It was not a great move indeed, somebody else should have joined the French, but it does tell me that Remco was not racing to win for himself. Also, Remco didn't know how much the gap was behind him when WVA and Stuyven joined. They don't have earphones. WVA told him to pull so he did. How can he properly assess that he is pulling too hard and that the gap was growing to 2 minutes? The coach couldn't get near him. Making the race super hard was part of the game plan and not Remco's idea. The idea was that Belgium had the strongest rider who would outsprint anyone after a hard race.

Until Remco's comments, my thoughts were:
"oh well, he reacted too soon in the race, and drilled it too hard when pulling for WvA, but those are rookie mistakes"

After his comments, my thoughts are drifting towards:
"He knew he reacted too soon, but pretended he was asked to do so, and he drilled it too hard to show the outside world he had very good legs, while it's clear WvA didn't benefit from a very hard race, just a controlled race"

Making the race hard was part of the plan. Making the race super hard was Remco's take. If WvA would have had a super day like in the Olympics, he could have pulled off Remco's work. But now, it seems that Remco's work did most damage to the Belgian team, by Remco having to let go too soon, and by wearing out two good shots at the win that are only good shots if it's a closed race, not a wild attacking fest that clearly was playing in the cards of the French, and it was also the way the French tried to do the whole race.

 

[Rackham]

Making the race hard was part of the plan. Making the race super hard was Remco's take. If WvA would have had a super day like in the Olympics, he could have pulled off Remco's work. But now, it seems that Remco's work did most damage to the Belgian team, by Remco having to let go too soon, and by wearing out two good shots at the win that are only good shots if it's a closed race, not a wild attacking fest that clearly was playing in the cards of the French, and it was also the way the French tried to do the whole race.

The problem with the assumption Remco Evenepoel went harder than necessary in that first breakaway is the fact Tim Declercq also worked hard (& he was theoretically well placed to mediate race tactics between Evenepoel's work in the front group versus the rest of the team in the peloton).

Then when Evenepoel was pulling for van Aert in the final 50km (supposedly too hard), why didn't WvA himself tell him to slow down if it was a problem? He was right on his wheel & could have spoken to him.

Again, that's what a team leader does.

 

[noob]

The evil guy on my right shoulder asks if Remco knew this, and thought 'well, I will show them I have better legs, and with those better legs I will crush WvA and Stuyven, and if they are good enough they'll survive and maybe win this and I will be the perfect helper, and if not, Alaphilippe will win this and I can claim I was one of the best and they served me wrong with my role in this race'.

Is Remco capable of thinking that far? Or - since we already have drama - who would benefit to put those thoughts in his head if he himself didnt?

 

[Volderke]

The problem with the assumption Remco Evenepoel went harder than necessary in that first breakaway is the fact Tim Declercq also worked hard (& he was theoretically well placed to mediate race tactics between Evenepoel's work in the front group versus the rest of the team in the peloton).

Then when Evenepoel was pulling for van Aert in the final 50km (supposedly too hard), why didn't WvA himself tell him to slow down if it was a problem? He was right on his wheel & could have spoken to him.

Again, that's what a team leader does.

In that breakaway with Declercq, I saw Evenepoel pulling way more than Declercq. I feel Declercq didn't have much in the legs anymore, and on the hills he barely hang on. You could say it was necessary that Remco drilled it, to make the Italians chase...

With regards to WvA's role: He wasn't in the wheel for long (like most!) because Evenepoel's drag is more or less non-existent! And yes, van Aert should have told him to slow down a bit. But Evenepoel should also have known that, after they had a 1-minute lead, he shouldn't have drilled it anymore in order to make the gap grow even more. I feel the damage to WvA was already done (by Evenepoel riding so hard) before those 50K, and the final pull of Evenepoel was not really deteriorating WvA or Stuyven, but it didn't help Evenepoel latching on a bit longer on the local laps to set the pace.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

I find it funny that come the end of the year, this lad could have more pages than Valverde who has been a pro nearly as long as Remco been alive. You would have thought they have a very similar palmares, or is it the potential this lad has. Loving the drama and entertainment and shall wait for the "this lad will win more world titles than Valverde before he's 25" comments.