Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[red_flanders]

I don't see all the statements from Remco and all these guys, but I'd like to see which statements are "borderline", because to me mostly he's just very frank about what his ambitions are. Which strikes me as very typical if my Mom and the rest of my Flemish family are any indication. They kind of just state things as they see them. Very nice, very kind and considerate, very classy, but very straightforward.

Maybe he is arrogant as many have said, I've just not seen it, but I don't read Flemish. Appreciate the translations @Logic-is-your-friend

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Why? He is just more ambitious than Van Aert. Nothing wrong with that.

What makes you say he's more ambitious than van Aert? Or why would you consider van Aert to be less ambitious? Because he worked for Roglic in the Tour?

 

[Big Doopie]

Why is it so bad to not want to ride like Kwiatkowski or Van Aert? I hate seeing good riders wasted like that, and it kills the racing.

i fear that you may be missing the point.

that is not the point. and that is not what VDP was intimating...

 

[red_flanders]

Yeah, I see VDP's comments as being more that he's about all kinds of racing, including MTB and Cross, where WVA is willing to spend a lot of time and effort to commit to the road, including riding big Tours as a dom. VDP has other ambitions, and that's fine for both of them.

 

[Big Doopie]

Best to take whatever you read with a pinch of salt before verifying. Same thing with Evenepoel losing 5kg according to CN (which was false). Or same thing with him having to lose weight in order to do Grand Tours (the initial quote was about van Aert, not Evenepoel).

Same here, the original quote is not at all as extreme:

“Al vind ik vind zijn uitspraken soms op het randje, maar iedereen is zoals hij is: als hij de dingen zo wil zeggen, moet hij dat vooral doen”, klinkt het. “Voor ons kan dat arrogant overkomen, maar in zijn ogen geeft het waarschijnlijk vooral blijk van zelfvertrouwen. Nu, hij mag dan grootse uitspraken doen, vaak antwoordt hij ook met de pedalen. Straf, hoor! Weet je, ik heb ook al gezegd dat ik in de drie disciplines wereldtop wil worden, mét Olympisch goud op de mountainbike. Dat zijn óók ambitieuze uitspraken.”

google translated:

“Although I sometimes find his statements borderline, but everyone is the way he is: if he wants to say things that way, he should do it,” he says. “This may seem arrogant to us, but in his view it probably mainly shows self-confidence. Well, he may make great statements, but he often answers with the pedals too. Punishment! You know, I also said that I want to become world top in the three disciplines, with Olympic gold on the mountain bike. These are also ambitious statements. ”

all good and fair points. and tx for the clarification.

i still find it "ironic" that he chooses to call Remco's statements "borderline arrogant" (a negative, no matter how he then qualifies it), however his similar or arguably more "arrogant" statements, he chooses to describe as simply being "ambitious" (not a specifically negative attribute).

I kind of smiled at the lack of self-awareness.

 

[tobydawq]

Because he worked for Roglic in the Tour?

Yes. And did the Dauphiné in his service instead of winning Lombardia.

 

[BlueRoads]

Arrogant does not seem the best word for Evenepoel. Who was it who said "he likes to be talked about"? Was it Gilbert? Anyway, I thought that described very well the picture I have of him.
I have always thought of van der Poel as a kind of Eton-student, with a slight, casual arrogance. Well, again, just my picture...
I don't expect van Aert to be a domestique for Roglic very much longer. I guess this season was a kind of transition season, with his crash and him still doing a lot of CX. I would imagine him to, while still doing some CX, turn his focus even more to the road where he then should be able to achieve amazing things. Van der Poel has probably found his identity in being the complete crossover-rider, a rather independent soul whose team focuses on him and gives him all freedom while supporting his ambitions.
But then of course goals may change when unexpected things just happen, so we will see how all of this plays out, quite exciting.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Yes. And did the Dauphiné in his service instead of winning Lombardia.

He won a stage in the Dauphiné, while van der Poel never expected to (or could) win Lombardia. So, i don't really agree. One could say it is thanks to van Aert's ambition and willpower that he became WC 2016 CX, when he powered through while van der Poel just hung his head. Same story in 2018, when van Aert was said not to have a chance. I think you are mistaking "being a teammate" with "lack of ambition". The fact that he has already won 3 TDF stages, and chose to ride for one of the major road teams where he is the sole leader in the classics, also contradicts that.

Arrogant does not seem the best word for Evenepoel. Who was it who said "he likes to be talked about"? Was it Gilbert? Anyway, I thought that described very well the picture I have of him.
I have always thought of van der Poel as a kind of Eton-student, with a slight, casual arrogance. Well, again, just my picture...
I don't expect van Aert to be a domestique for Roglic very much longer. I guess this season was a kind of transition season, with his crash and him still doing a lot of CX. I would imagine him to, while still doing some CX, turn his focus even more to the road where he then should be able to achieve amazing things. Van der Poel has probably found his identity in being the complete crossover-rider, a rather independent soul whose team focuses on him and gives him all freedom while supporting his ambitions.
But then of course goals may change when unexpected things just happen, so we will see how all of this plays out, quite exciting.

I think i mentioned it before in this thread, the best word to describe him in Dutch would be "eergierig". But there isn't a fitting English translation that carries the same meaning. Hungry for honor, would be the best way to describe the word. I think it very much suits Evenepoel. I don't think he's arrogant, but he's ridiculously ambitious and self-aware of his talent. I understand some people may mistake that for arrogant, which is also what van der Poel is saying in his own words i believe, but for me there is a difference. If Evenepoel said he wanted to win Lombardia, i did not think that was arrogant, because i actually think he would have won it and that he was able to win it.

 

[Wvv]

I don't see all the statements from Remco and all these guys, but I'd like to see which statements are "borderline", because to me mostly he's just very frank about what his ambitions are. Which strikes me as very typical if my Mom and the rest of my Flemish family are any indication. They kind of just state things as they see them. Very nice, very kind and considerate, very classy, but very straightforward.

To be honest, typical Flemish behaviour in the last decades was considered to be rather modest, often polite but a bit holding back. Wearing your heart on your sleeve was always a more Dutch feature. In the Netherlands they often called us quiet and underhanded, we Flemish people often called them loud and rude.

Of course these are pejorative generalizations. Nowadays, in more recent generations, we see and appreciate more straightforward and exuberant characters. Although you can still find the old-fashioned person that has a hard time to put the self-awareness of someone like Remco in the right context.

Regarding MVDP's statements, there's not much wrong with them. As Logic showed, the full quote is more nuanced. Both he and Remco have a healthy level of arrogance that comes with ambition, if you can call it arrogance at all.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Every sport needs personalities. Remco is "arrogant" but when you can back it up it's not an issue.

That's what VDP is saying.

 

[tobydawq]

He won a stage in the Dauphiné, while van der Poel never expected to (or could) win Lombardia. So, i don't really agree. One could say it is thanks to van Aert's ambition and willpower that he became WC 2016 CX, when he powered through while van der Poel just hung his head. Same story in 2018, when van Aert was said not to have a chance. I think you are mistaking "being a teammate" with "lack of ambition". The fact that he has already won 3 TDF stages, and chose to ride for one of the major road teams where he is the sole leader in the classics, also contradicts that.

I'm talking about Van Aert riding Dauphiné instead of winning Lombardia, I don't see what van der Poel's ride in Lombardia has to do with that...

And "being a teammate" is alright for a lot of riders but imagine Van Aert on the loose in this year's Tour. He could have won six, seven, eight, ten stages. His level may have surprised him as well but if he just rides train the coming years, yes, I would call it a lack of ambition.

I shudder to think Sagan being abused like that instead of entertaining with offensive riding and stage hunting.

 

[Spine Concept]

The funny thing about this whole thing is that VDP didn’t even outright call him arrogant. He also nuanced what might seem like arrogance to “us” is Remco simply glowing with confidence. Moreover, he adds that Remco backs up the “big talk” with his pedals/results. In other words VDP is saying that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with Remco and the things he says.

He’s basically telling the haters to pipe down about the whole “Remco is an arrogant brat” rhetoric. So please stop misconstruing his words.

 

[Big Doopie]

The funny thing about this whole thing is that VDP didn’t even outright call him arrogant. He also nuanced what might seem like arrogance to “us” is Remco simply glowing with confidence. Moreover, he adds that Remco backs up the “big talk” with his pedals/results. In other words VDP is saying that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with Remco and the things he says.

He’s basically telling the haters to pipe down about the whole “Remco is an arrogant brat” rhetoric. So please stop misconstruing his words.

wow that's an interesting spin.

shows how two people can read the same words completely differently. one reads a hardly camouflaged criticism with a qualifier after the damage has already been done. another reads an ardent defense of the person initially accused of being "borderline arrogant".

the world is interesting no doubt.

 

[tobydawq]

wow that's an interesting spin.

shows how two people can read the same words completely differently. one reads a hardly camouflaged criticism with a qualifier after the damage has already been done. another reads an ardent defense of the person initially accused of being "borderline arrogant".

the world is interesting no doubt.

I read it exactly the same way as Spine Concept.

 

[BlueRoads]

I am reading something in the middle, leaning a bit more towards Big Doopie. We need to have another interview and a very, very skilled interviewer who gets the final true intentions out of van der Poel. Maybe try hypnosis if nothing else works.

 

[Sciatic]

Some of this discussion comes down to the meaning of “arrogance.” As Logic mentioned, there a slight difference in the meaning in the Dutch word. The same is true (though subtle) in English. Although most people use “hubris” and “arrogance” as synonyms, there is a difference. While both equate with being presumptuous, hubris is an insolence (originally towards the Greek gods), pride, and “excessive self-confidence” which probably fits many elite athletes. Arrogance is defined as “unduly appropriating authority or importance” and “aggressively conceited or presumptuous. “ (OED). Hubris would be the self-confidence and the conceit to think you can climb to the top, or tackle the top dog. Arrogance is directed at all those around oneself, including those the arrogant person thinks to be beneath them, even if he or she hadn’t shown themselves to be superior (“unduly self-important”. Hubris can be a turn-off to some people who want to see more humility, but arrogance is almost always a turn-off, and basically associated with being an a-hole.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'm talking about Van Aert riding Dauphiné instead of winning Lombardia, I don't see what van der Poel's ride in Lombardia has to do with that...

You said van Aert is less ambitious than van der Poel, as such it makes no sense for van der Poel to enter a race he was never going to win (and he never thought he would win either). Van Aert on the other hand, picked a race he could win (a stage) and did so as well. It is also easy for van der Poel to lay down the law in a small team and do whatever the hell he pleases, as the entire team revolves around him. If he were part of (let's say for argument's sake) the Deceuninck QuickStep Tour de France team, i doubt he could say equally easily "stick it up your ass Patrick, i'm not riding the Dauphiné with the rest of the TDF squad, i'm doing a classic i have no chance of winning instead".

Your argument is surely based on the assumption that van Aert could have won Lombardia... and with Evenepoel's crash that might have been the case, but nobody, not even van Aert, would have believed that at the time. Him not riding Lombardia is in that sense not showing lack of ambition.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

Although this page of the discussion has focused on his “all-roundness” and ability to tackle cobbles and Ardennes, it’s still an age of specialization and I don’t think we’ve seen anyone since the 90s try to maintain a peak from, say E3 through Liege and be competitive for a win throughout. Gilbert is the most recent to win a monument in each category, but those were at different points in his career.
I think you folks are thinking about him doing so at different points in his career, which makes sense, but also kind of moot when we’re still waiting (eagerly) to see when (if) he might get his first monument.

I totally agree. A sensible comment from a cycling connoisseur.

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

What makes you say he's more ambitious than van Aert? Or why would you consider van Aert to be less ambitious? Because he worked for Roglic in the Tour?

In working as "a domestique" in the Tour. By staying, even 2021 past, with the terrible Jumbo-Visma team. Van Aert has been abused by his team(managers) since last year. Remember the way he was left on his own in Paris-Roubaix 2019. And the way he was/is not supported by his team in the classics (just one or two teammates of a certain level, the others second class riders, and no teammates in the final). And the way he was milked in the Tour by his team. Winning six stages there, is perhaps exagerated. But he could have won at least three or four stages and the green jersey if he had received support. The result was that the team missed out not only the green jersey and some stages, but also the yellow jersey.
And yes, Evenepoel has the guts that Van Aert has not. And he has the team, the teammanager, the teamleaders, the teammates who make the difference. Van Aert has not. By signing up by his Jumbo-Visma team, Van Aert will pass up many victories and will lose his best years.

 

[BlueRoads]

In working as "a domestique" in the Tour. By staying, even 2021 past, with the terrible Jumbo-Visma team. Van Aert has been abused by his team(managers) since last year. Remember the way he was left on his own in Paris-Roubaix 2019. And the way he was/is not supported by his team in the classics (just one or two teammates of a certain level, the others second class riders, and no teammates in the final). And the way he was milked in the Tour by his team. Winning six stages there, is perhaps exagerated. But he could have won at least three or four stages and the green jersey if he had received support. The result was that the team missed out not only the green jersey and some stages, but also the yellow jersey.
And yes, Evenepoel has the guts that Van Aert has not. And he has the team, the teammanager, the teamleaders, the teammates who make the difference. Van Aert has not. By signing up by his Jumbo-Visma team, Van Aert will pass up many victories and will lose his best years.

Reading your first sentences I was sure you were being ironic, but you mean it?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Reading your first sentences I was sure you were being ironic, but you mean it?

Who are you taking to? Not in a Taxidriver way.

 

[tobydawq]

Who are you taking to? Not in a Taxidriver way.

Zoef-lightning (I assume you have him blocked).

 

[Zoef-Lightning]

Reading your first sentences I was sure you were being ironic, but you mean it?

And wat's your point ? Hopefully with a well-constructed argumentation.

 

[BlueRoads]

And wat's your point ? Hopefully with a well-constructed argumentation.

Lol, don't troll me, okay?

The "terrible Jumbo-Visma-team" sounds totally ironic, looking at the fact that they are quite high up in the team's ranking this year, in fact have been a kind of super-team for most of the season.
Maybe van Aert did not get the freedom and support he would have gotten elsewhere. He was not exactly totally tied either. And maybe the coaches and staff are quite good at JV, thereby helping him to perform - the results of the team in general seem to say so.
And "abused"? He's a very, very poular Belgian, I'm sure if he stated he wanted more support, to be more the center of things, he'd get some more. But maybe he was quite okay with the role he got? I never heard him complain, not even between the lines. Maybe that will change in the future, but really I see no "abuse" here, just a guy who had an amazing season and won a monument and a lot of other stuff in one of his first real road seasons, after a really bad crash which was feared to be career-threatening, and in a season messed up by a pandemic.
He had the possibility to explore a bit what he can do in a GT without any pressure on him.

Maybe Evenepoel has more guts, who knows. Surely the fact that Evenepoel chose DQS and van Aert Jumbo is no indication for that at all. You make it sound like van Aert signed for a bad PCT.

I agree that, looking at what he did, his role this year should not be the limit of his wishes. I'm sure it isn't. To say he's wasting his best years does not make sense. If he has the quality and wish to go for the yellow jersey, Jumbo have the team-members and staff to make that possible. Surely in that case he'd not rate Dumoulin and Kuss as team-mates below Alaphilippe and Almeida.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Zoef-lightning (I assume you have him blocked).

Indeed.

(I just noticed, unlike on other forums, you can't read the text someone else quoted from a person you blocked, and you don't even see a message saying there was a message of someone you blocked, in case you wanted to see what was said... so it looked like Blue was talking to me or to himself, which was why i had no idea what he meant.)