Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[kingjr]

I think having a winner's mentality is showing a willingness to do whatever it takes to win (excluding illegal means), how exactly that plays out depends on each individual rider and circumstances.

 

[Netserk]

I think having a winner's mentality is showing a willingness to do whatever it takes to win (excluding illegal means), how exactly that plays out depends on each individual rider and circumstances.

Vino and Contador are the first that comes to my mind.

 

[peterfin]

Naturally Gemini craps out the standard motivational speech stuff out for 'winning mentality' and we're really only talking in circles because people always equate mentality with outcome when the athlete they like wins and talk about poor menality when the athlete they dislike loses.

Why? because it's inherently *** lazy.

So within that, if you're going to use specific definitions of winning mentality, I'm going to be able to give counterexamples to show why it's wrong. And complaining about cherry picking itself is just an often used crutch for poor argumentation anyway.

In this case, Evenepoel blaming things outside of his own control for losses is not a one time event. It's something he does all the time.

You are mixing up his extroverted character with his mentality. Sometimes he is right, sometimes he overreacts and sometimes he is wrong and you need to give him a moment to see things clearly.

 

[Extinction]

@Netserk Vingegaard does not have the same winner's mentality. No idea how a dedicated Vingegaard supporter can state that with a straight face. That's like Evenepoel supporters claiming Evenepoel always remains levelheaded. Both statements are equally absurd.

Examples? Remember the Bambi nickname you gave Evenepoel and why? Well, last year all three of them were ahead of the peloton in the gravel stage in the Tour. Remember who didn't want to ride? It wasn't the guy who crashed in every corner on the gravel during his first pro season at Adriatica Ionica. It wasn't the guy who made a spectacle of himself during the 2021 Giro gravel stage. It wasn't the guy who got nicknamed Bambi by you. No, it was the reigning TDF champion who peed his pants. Remember Itzulia 2022, when Alaphilippe went on the attack and Vingegaard was in his group, with both Roglic and Evenepoel behind in the peloton? Remember who didn't want to ride? Same dude. That's why people say he doesn't ride like a winner. He rides very calculated and will leave it to others to do the heavy lifting. It may be smart, but it's not what riding like a winner is. He doesn't go to races where he knows his chances are slim, not exactly a winners mentality. He will try to attack only as a last resort.

You are mistaking his perseverance, which he undoubtedly has as evident from overcoming adversity and maximising his chances against the odds, with winner mentality.

Yea, and you forgot to mention Almeida at this last Vuelta, after Vingeggard sat on his wheel for the enth time, saying that "eh, sure, Vingeggard never wants to pull." When Vingeggard does some classics or a Worlds with more than 5000 meters of elevation (or any Worlds for that matter), I'll start to consider him having a similar "winner's mentality" as Evenepoel. I think there is confusion about equating winning the Tour twice against Pogacar with having a hors categorie winner's mentality. Let's face it, any one at his level has one, but Evenepoel's is simply off the charts. He just can't stand losing, which destroys him particularly when he cannot beat two better climbers. To a fault, because I think particularly Pogacar has gotten into his head. Remco has, beyond all his misfortune (serious crashes and illnesses), suffered immensely, because he has not achieved what his winner's mentality (reinforced by having been the best junior in the history of the sport, who then immediatly started winning as a pro) thought he should have by now. That's because he unexpectedly (at the time many, without baseless reason, thought the "new Merckx" had arrived) came up against two better climbers and one better all-rounder. Let's see if Bora can close the gap, which ties into the investment gamble I referred to up-thread, but which evidently nobody thought worthy of commenting upon.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think having a winner's mentality is showing a willingness to do whatever it takes to win (excluding illegal means), how exactly that plays out depends on each individual rider and circumstances.

So wheelsuckers are the biggest winners of them all then.

A winner will take risks in order to get the win against all odds. Not the opposite, which Vingegaard has been known to do, cowering and calculating, only attacking as a last resort.

 

[KoopaCycling]

Last post i'm gonna bother with Netserk 'take'. He cherry picking. if he did not, you'd know i actually post i'm not sure about Vingegaard mentality later on. personally i feel he did not have a winning mentality early on in his career, but is slowly growing one.

i think Vingegaard is growing into his winner mentality. But i think for the longest time he needed to be molded into a winner. Someone that would fight for it. Quiet resilience he had, the will to compete and not lose. Sure. But the will to want to win? I think he needed to grow that. And he is getting better in that aspect as the years roll by.

I will double down on Netserk being a liar. That his lies are easily confirmed by watching the stages. And it does show a lack of self-respect that you double down on a lie about another cyclist cause your feelings for Vingegaard got hurt. Then double down further by only half-posting my post. When that lie is not based on subjective opinion but observable fact. Anyone can see the stages and see the truth. It's an objective fact. Not open to interpretation save for those willing to go that extra mile carrying hidden agendas. That's like me saying Vingegaard only attacked Tadej cause it was the team plan and he needed to follow orders. Not him actually wanting to win the tour. It would be almost as bad a take as what Netserk put forth.

The fact that he needs to lie about another rider cause his feelings got hurt is wild to me. No remorse, no hint of of an apology, nothing. So he is going on ignore.

This is what i said about Vingegaard after looking it up.

I've seen someone comment along the lines that Remco & his fans need not bother with EUC RR cause Pogacar will smash that as well. probably. But remco should still go out there and compete. And his fans should cheer and hope for the win. that is sports. If i wanted someone that rode not to lose and is ultimately fine with being second i'd be a Van aert or Vingegaard fan. I'm not. I cheer for Remco cause he has a winning mentality.

Van Aert is better at GT cause he has a bigger engine. But Van der poel smokes him in palmares cause VDP imo can simply dig deeper in the moment. He'll give it everything in order to win. (I may be wrong about Vingegaard, but i still find it hard to put him alongside Remco, Tadej, VDP when it comes to winning mentality).

 

[AmRacer]

Last post i'm gonna bother with Netserk 'take'. First off he did not quote my full post. If he did you'd know i actually post i'm not sure about Vingegaard mentality later on. personally i feel he did not have a winning mentality early on in his career, but is slowly growing one.

I will double down an Netserk being a liar. That his lies are easily confirmed by watching the stages. And it does show a lack of self-respect that you double down on a lie about another cyclist cause your feelings for Vingegaard got hurt. Then double down further by only half-posting my post.

The fact that he needs to lie about another rider cause his feelings got hurt is wild to me. No remorse, no hint of of an apology, nothing. So he is going on ignore.

This is what i said about Vingegaard after looking it up.

You don't win 2 TdF without extremely high winning mentality, so yes Jonas is on par with the others. And one Vuelta.

 

[HashRouge]

So wheelsuckers are the biggest winners of them all then.

A winner will take risks in order to get the win against all odds. Not the opposite, which Vingegaard has been known to do, cowering and calculating, only attacking as a last resort.

I think this is really unfair on Vingegaard. We can all give examples of his attacking all out, or going all in against Pogacar to try and force a win. Col du Granon, Hautacam 2022, Marie-Blanque, Col de la Loze, Le Lioran, even on Plateau de Beille you can't argue he didn't give it his absolute best shot. He led all the way up Ventoux this year in the hope he'd be able to ride Pogacar off the wheel. He attacked on the first stage of the Dauphine for the hell of it. Sure, you can give examples where he didn't attack when people wanted him to, just like I can give examples of Remco waving the camera moto away in a huff when things aren't going his way, or putting himself out of contention for the win because he's miles back in the peloton and not paying attention when Pogacar attacks. Just because Vinegaard and Remco are different riders with different approaches, doesn't mean that they don't both have a "winner's mentality". I genuinely can't believe people are saying this about 2x Tour de France winner Jonas Vingegaard.

 

[kingjr]

So wheelsuckers are the biggest winners of them all then.

Only if the situation demands it. I believe I have, over the years, frequently seen members of this forum complain that a rider apparently doesn't want to win because they're working together with someone perceived as stronger.

 

[KoopaCycling]

I think this is really unfair on Vingegaard. We can all give examples of his attacking all out, or going all in against Pogacar to try and force a win. Col du Granon, Hautacam 2022, Marie-Blanque, Col de la Loze, Le Lioran, even on Plateau de Beille you can't argue he didn't give it his absolute best shot. He led all the way up Ventoux this year in the hope he'd be able to ride Pogacar off the wheel. He attacked on the first stage of the Dauphine for the hell of it. Sure, you can give examples where he didn't attack when people wanted him to, just like I can give examples of Remco waving the camera moto away in a huff when things aren't going his way, or putting himself out of contention for the win because he's miles back in the peloton and not paying attention when Pogacar attacks. Just because Vinegaard and Remco are different riders with different approaches, doesn't mean that they don't both have a "winner's mentality". I genuinely can't believe people are saying this about 2x Tour de France winner Jonas Vingegaard

Has Jonas a winning mentality these days? probably.

But he himself has spoken about needing to grow self confidence, ... . He's the one that okay'ed Kuss winning the Vuelta. And so on. I believe Jonas wants to win more and more as time passes. But it did not come natural to him. Meanwhile Remco captained his football squad, and whenever possible has chosen to go for the W. Pogacar is a natural winner as well, but has won so much he's now okay with giving away some gifts. There is a difference between wanting to be as competitive as can be and not want to lose and wanting to win. I believe Jonas had the former 2 qualities, and is learning/has learned the latter as time progresses. Whereas i've giving all hope on WVA ever having that winner's mentality, despite him being the champion that he still is.