The revenge of Rasmussen ...

[ak-zaaf]

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/1001/W...ssen-gaat-Rabo-maats-aan-de-galg-praten.dhtml

"Rasmussen is going to talk Rabo-buddies to the gallows"

The Dutch Rabobank cycling formation looks with squeezed buttocks on the doping case in the Austrian blood Human Plasma. The Austrian Minister of Sports has decided to refer the case to the responsible authorities to doping control, reports the Volkskrant. Former Rabo Renner and nearly Tour winner Michael Rasmussen has just published a book soon to open on organized doping within the Dutch team.

The ball went recently to the roles when the Austrian Bernhard Kohl has confirmed that he was a customer at the Vienna blood bank. The climber was in the last Tour de France caught the use of Cera, provided by Human Plasma. Previously even though Michael Boogerd, Thomas Dekker and Denis Menchov in connection with the affair. Rabobank had already know that some riders voluntarily cooperate in the investigation. (DEA)



06/07/09 17u07

if this comes true, this will no doubt be the end of the rabobank cycling team.
now the question is: where will gesink go?


this doping thread might be important enough for the 'main' forum. mods decide.

 

[Bala Verde]

if this comes true, this will no doubt be the end of the rabobank cycling team.
now the question is: where will gesink go?


this doping thread might be important enough for the 'main' forum. mods decide.

COL they have signed every talented rider in the universe

He did not publish a book though, but 'doet een boekje open'

 

[ak-zaaf]

COL they have signed every talented rider in the universe

He did not publish a book though, but 'doet een boekje open'

ah, missed that one.

 

[BroDeal]

Is this also an acknowledgement by Ras that he is not coming back? His ban expires in a little over two weeks.

I have been waiting for someone to spill his guts out of spite. Ras might be the ideal person to do it if no team will hire him He undoubtedly feels he was robbed of a sure TdF win. He could give all sorts of interesting interviews or communicate via the Internet, not having to worry about answering calls to sue him for libel if he is happy living in Mexico. He may have little to lose.

He also rode for CSC in 2002. That was around the time when CSC was hiring riders who had been underperformers who would take a large leap up in abilities after being hired. I don't think there is much love between Riis and Rasmussen.

Too bad he did not race for more major road teams. He also appears to be a loner who did not mind organizing his own doping program, so maybe he does not know as much as a team player would.

Menchov is a dead man. He will be hit from two sides in the next month. It will be funny if the Vuelta is put in the position where Heras' 2005 title was handed to Menchov, who was also doping. Sastre was third. Maybe he picks up a new GT win--unless Ras talks about what was going on at CSC and the title has to be passed down to Mancebo then down to Quesada then down to Plaza then down to Sevilla and finally down to Danielson. Holy crap, Tommy D. wins a GT. I always knew he could do it.

 

[issoisso]

I'm not believing this until I see a more credible source. Rasmussen has a contract with Flaminia to restart racing in a few weeks. He'd be insane to spill the beans now and get suspended for life for doping @ Rabo.

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not believing this until I see a more credible source. Rasmussen has a contract with Flaminia to restart racing in a few weeks. He'd be insane to spill the beans now and get suspended for life for doping @ Rabo.

He certainly would not be suspended for life. He has to commit a doping offense after being notified of the first offense for a lifetime ban. I am not sure whether he could be sanctioned at all for his past behavior. My reading of the WADA code is that he cannot. All previous charges are lumped together and one sanction, the harshest sanction that is applicable to any of the offenses, is applied. Since Ras already served the harshest (and only) sanction that is applied in cycling, he cannot be sanctioned further.

I really wish someone else would read the WADA code and confirm that I am right. It is not very long. It is available as a PDF. There are two relevant sections, and there is some ambiguity in the language. I may not be interpreting it correctly.

 

[luckyboy]

Rasmussen's going to Flaminia too!?

He wouldn't say anything of use if he has another contract then, as IssoIsso said

 

[issoisso]

He certainly would not be suspended for life.

He has to commit a doping offense after being notified of the first offense for a lifetime ban.

He has to breach anti-doping regulations twice. He's done it once. So if he admits the second one...

I am not sure whether he could be sanctioned at all for his past behavior. My reading of the WADA code is that he cannot. All previous charges are lumped together and one sanction, the harshest sanction that is applicable to any of the offenses, is applied. Since Ras already served the harshest (and only) sanction that is applied in cycling, he cannot be sanctioned further.

The first sanction was of a different type than the one he would be admitting to. Infractions can be lumped together if they are the same infraction repeated over a period of time. But in this case it would be two different types of sanctions: avoiding doping controls, and a positive test.

However, he may be cleared if they interpret the letter of the law as "3 doping tests missed = 1 positive". We'll see.

Either way, why now? Why not wait a couple of years until he retires? Strange.

Anyway, if it all checks out as I think it will, then bye Rabo. Too bad Breukink and co. will find a different team to bring their "methodologies to"

 

[issoisso]

Rasmussen's going to Flaminia too!?

He said about a month ago he's got a contract with an italian continental team that's going to ride the Tour of Denmark.

ergo, Ceramica Flaminia.

 

[Bala Verde]

I am not convinced that RAB will pull the plug on the team. It still one of the cheapest way of advertising in the industry, they basically carry dutch cycling and are proud of that, and they 'admitted' guilt by removing/changing the whole organisational structure after the Rasmussen debacle.

I bet they'll stay in business and make up some PR story that they feel confident that the new organisation is capable of dealing with future challenges. The Rasmussen episode has long gone by, so anything he'll tell will unlikely be an argument for Rabobank to quit sponsoring.

Unless of course Erik Breukink himself put the needles in Menchov's arm and Frans Maassen bought Dynepo just over the border in the south of the Netherlands.

 

[BroDeal]

He has to breach anti-doping regulations twice. He's done it once. So if he admits the second one...

From what I remember of the WADA code it is very clear that for a lifetime ban the second offense has to take place after notification of the first. It is not simply two infractions equal a lifetime ban. It is like they ban you for life if you are caught and instead of reforming, you dope again.

 

[issoisso]

From what I remember of the WADA code it is very clear that for a lifetime ban the second offense has to take place after notification of the first. It is not simply two infractions equal a lifetime ban. It is like they ban you for life if you are caught and instead of reforming, you dope again.

If that's the case, it depends what they define as the notification....when he was told he was going to be prosecuted, or when he was told he'd missed the third control.

Option A = no suspension
Option B = suspension

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I'll be surprised if this really happens right now. I can see him spilling his guts - as BroDeal says, he's got to be pretty bitter about being ejected from the 2007 Tour when he must have known he was hardly the only one doping. And he does seem like a loner. Plus, if he's happy to live in Mexico, it's ripe for him to say what he wants....

In a couple of years.

I did read the WADA code, but it's been a bit. I think Iso gave a fairly good interpretation from how I see it. If they are treating the missed tests as "one strike", and that doesn't include what he's about to confess on, then he'd be done. But either way, we all know how this works, if he talks and starts saying they were all on EPO, Biopure, Dynepo, etc. he's not going to get signed by any other team, and the omerta will crash down him really hard. So, even if the UCI doesn't ban him for life, he'll be effectively done simply by speaking out like this.

Agree though that in the long term this is really bad news for Rabobank. It has the potential to cause a huge smear on Menchov and his wins (personally, I still consider Heras the winner of the 2005 Vuelta. He certainly rode more like a champion).

But the person perhaps more hurt by this is Boogerd. The reason I say this is because Michael is one of the most loved Dutch guys in the sport from the last twenty years. He rode his heart out, and seemed very affable. He and Erik Dekker were very popular "brothers".

If this really does start to stink, it might be in Boogerd's interest to be like Erik Zabel, (or Andy Pettite of the Yankees) and give a brief, contrite mea culpa. Saying they were tough times with a lot of doping in cycling when he rode, and he regrets he got involved in that and is sorry if he let anyone down, etc. He probably wouldn't need to say anymore, and any harm to his reputation wouldn't last long. In today's dirty times, he'd probably gain fans for being honest. Dekker would be wise to stand near him and admit the same.

 

[BroDeal]

I take back saying that the WADA code is short. I just took a glance at the latest version and it is many times more complicated than the version from a few years ago. It now uses tables to impose sanction lengths, with different types of rule infractions giving different sanctions. There also appear to be all sorts of special circumstances for use of multiple substances at the same time. I don't care to read it in detail.

Isso's point about the first rule infraction being notification that Ras had missed his third OCC control may very well be on point. Combine that with Dynepo that could be detected in his stored sample or an admission that the team doped for the 2007 TdF, and a lifetime ban may be warranted. It might depend on when Ras was notified or a reasonable attempt was made to notify him that he had missed a third test. Then there is the added complication that not all missed testing was UCI testing. Some controls missed were missed by the Denmark fed were they not?

ClusterF***. Leave it to the lawyers.

 

[Escarabajo]

If this really does start to stink, it might be in Boogerd's interest to be like Erik Zabel, (or Andy Pettite of the Yankees) and give a brief, contrite mea culpa. Saying they were tough times with a lot of doping in cycling when he rode, and he regrets he got involved in that and is sorry if he let anyone down, etc. He probably wouldn't need to say anymore, and any harm to his reputation wouldn't last long. In today's dirty times, he'd probably gain fans for being honest. Dekker would be wise to stand near him and admit the same.

Well yes, but which period does he pick? It has to be the same period as the one Rasmussen is picking. Remember that in T-Mobile they all agreed on 1996 which was well beyond reach of the authorities. I don't think he would come forward and say he doped throughout his career and expect the Dutch people to love him the same way.
Just a thought.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I do love the literal translation 'with squeezed buttocks'.

Rabo officials were all putting on a brave face today, downplaying any possible revelations as much as possible and generally avoiding any direct comment.

I believe I'm right in saying that Rasmussen has never actually been convicted of any kind of 'doping', nor has he ever given a positive sample. Rabo dropped him because it became clear that he had lied about his whereabouts - in the official jargon of the time, a "breach of trust".

I do wonder what he has to tell.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Thomas Dekker and Michael Boogerd will be traveling to Vienna shortly to appear as "witnesses", not as "suspects", according to their Dutch lawyer.

From Dutch teletext

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks Amster. Good point on the timeline. It's a real fine like for Michael (and Thomas) to walk. If they give a blanket "very sorry" comment, people are going to want to know more. Riis and Zabel were wise to talk about 1996 in this regard.

Really hard to say what Michael will say, but it's my opinion that he had better talk quick, or the window is going to close and he's going to go from "everyman hero" we'll forgive, to "shamed goat" liar and cheat pretty quickly.

 

[Bala Verde]

I think, to many people, he already was that. Somehow nobody really seemed to like him, or, to put it differently, they saw him as a freak, the odd one out, the ugly duck. Compared to other dopers, I think he will generally not be welcomed back with open arms.

 

[snackattack]

it's close

Multiple witness testimony in Dutch court on Monday, November 12, 2012

 

[happychappy]

And still no one cares where Gesink went.

 

[bianchigirl]

And who was Rasmussen's personal trainer at rabo? Why geert leinders of course...

 

[DirtyWorks]

I believe I'm right in saying that Rasmussen has never actually been convicted of any kind of 'doping', nor has he ever given a positive sample. Rabo dropped him because it became clear that he had lied about his whereabouts - in the official jargon of the time, a "breach of trust".

I do wonder what he has to tell.

These facts always amazed me. Even though his wildly inconsistent results and a story over at VN about his mountain bike days sealed his fate, the common knowledge story is there's an official doping positive somewhere when in fact there isn't one.

I think the conversation about Rasmussen between Pat and Hein is tempered with the way Landis blew things up when they kept him on the blacklist, probably with Wonderboy demanding he remain unemployed..

I guess if he rides he stays quiet. If he doesn't ride, he has to play a confession as well, if not better than Landis. That's not easy.

 

[Benotti69]

Multiple witness testimony in Dutch court on Monday, November 12, 2012

Will Geert Leinders be dragged into this?

Will all be revealed about Marginal gains?

 

[snackattack]

Will Geert Leinders be dragged into this?

Will all be revealed about Marginal gains?

The witness list is pretty impressive and under oath, where the stakes are overshadowing the € 5.6 million claim.