The "Right" Stuff

[Parera]

Howdy, long time lurker, first time poster. Always enjoyed rummaging through this sub-forum, some informative and illuminating discussions (especially in the wheelbuilding thread). I was looking for some thoughts/feedback on a project working and figured this would be a good place to ask. My question is fairly straightforward but feel an urge to divulge some background information first as I think it would provide a better launching pad for this particular discussion.

Anyways, I got into cycling kind of just on a whim. Wanted something to make my lifestyle a bit more active, cycling always looked fun, so I dove into the pond. A friend pressured me into "supporting your LBS" and I ended up with a clearance frame, pretty nice little ride although a little ill-fitting. I rode quite a bit, had fun with it, did my first century ride, blablabla; it was a fine way to get my feet wet...until some careless driver destroyed the frame. I managed to walk away from that incident without much injury, thankfully, so I embarked on the bike search thing again. This time, I wanted to do it "right." Which means testing a lot of bikes before riding, getting fit, etc...something that is not easy to do in Southern Oregon given the lack of stock for road cycling. So I found myself at one of the big brand stores in Portland, and using a handsome check from the insurers of that wreckless motorist, I found a the bike I preferred the most (a Specialized Roubaix) and got fitted, the works, everything worked great.

Of course, fast forward two years and I've learned a thing or two about buying a complete bike. The components package (particular saddle/bars/wheels/etc) that come in the whole bike-in-a-box are...not good, to put it nicely. Furthermore, I've shed a lot of weight off my person and I'm in considerably better shape than I was when I started cycling, so this "century geometry" of the Roubaix is something I've outgrown I think.

However, the straw that broke the camel's back so speak has come in the form of dealing with Specialized warranty service. The local dealers are basically worthless/apathetic to an obvious frame defect (crack in the top tube), and thought I might get the situation resolved during my next visit to Portland, I just decided to take matters into my own hands and build up a new frameset. But this time, the right way, with parts chosen by me and assembled by my own hand possibly with the assistance of my preferred mechanic in my area.

So that brings me to my question: Campy or Shimano/SRAM? (Oh lord, done to death, I know, but I have some qualifiers before you tell me to "use the search function, die in a fire, etc"). My Roubaix came with 105, but I'm not really committed to anything at this point in time. Recalling comments from other threads/posts, there seems to be people that say Campy is the way to go and those that say Shimano/SRAM work just fine, are good value, etc. The only thing I can say for certain at this moment is that I'm not a fan of Shimano's ergonomics on their 6700/7900 brakehoods.

I would just probably pull the trigger on a Campy Chorus group but I'm hesitant as the aforementioned mechanic (the only dude I trust in my area to do a decent job as he's sold me my mountain bike frame, built me wheels for it, etc) is pretty unfamiliar with Campy. It's not a surprise, as I never see anyone using the stuff in Southern Oregon, and I don't think one shop stocks anything. So I guess my concern is that for me, personally, I just have relatively little exposure to their products (spent a short demo on a campy super record rig, loved the levers) and I have a little hesitancy on sinking some serious cash into something unfamiliar.

I know SRAM is the other option but seeing some friends and their issues with their SRAM MTB groups makes me just as reluctant as I'm with Campy, albeit for different reasons (thought I will say I also like the shape of their hoods as well). I understand SRAM's warranty/customer service is quite good, so maybe that is also something to consider.

Excuse that wall of text, what an eyesore! I guess I'm just leaning towards being adventurous and trying something different, coughing up the cash for a Campy Chorus build with some hand-built wheels. I am simply seeking some more anecdotes/opinions/thoughts on this topic before I invest more money into this little project.

Also, a couple other questions:

-Is there anything above Chorus that is worth upgrading to? Or will Chorus be light/accurate/durable enough?

-Are Campagnolo Record Hubs worthwhile to build up a set of wheels on, or should I look elsewhere?

Once again, please excuse the verbal diarrhea. I can crap out a lot of words with relative ease. Thanks for any replies in advance.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

By process of elimination it sounds like you're ready to get into a Campy group, and Chorus would suit you just fine. Your mechanics unfamiliarity with Campy hasn't got me worried either, from an ex-wrench standpoint Campy was always the easiest to set up. Record hubs are great, some other options out there too especially if you go custom, as you well know seeing as you're a fan the wheebuilders thread.

You may get some positive comments on SRAM, but I came to a realization recently that the SRAM road grouppos came out in a bad economy, they're cheap and most people can put up with the inadequacies. Your attention to detail would lead me to believe that you wouldn't like it. I've been riding Campy groups for about 20 years with the exception of a Suntour Cyclone group in the mid 80's, during my 3 month SCRAM RED trial last year I was wishing for that old Suntour group again, anything else would have been better.

 

[bc_hills]

I don't think the campy/shimano debate is worth the time a lot of people seem to give it. Not worth the time at all. Picking between shimano/campy based on hood comfort is as good a reason I've ever heard.

I've never used any sram drivetrain beyond cranks, so I don't have any opinion, although the considered opinion around here is against it enough that I won't be buying a sram derailleur any time soon...

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I don't think the campy/shimano debate is worth the time a lot of people seem to give it. Not worth the time at all. Picking between shimano/campy based on hood comfort is as good a reason I've ever heard.

Not sure this is a debate, rather someone looking to educate themselves into an informed decision. We went through many Shimano/SRAM/Campy debates when the forum was new, remember. But you're absolutely right about ergonomics. Even though SRAM is reminiscent of 2nd gen Campy ergopower in the hands it's everything else about it that's no good, even with a decent warranty. If ya don't like how Shimano feels, go Campy, and visa versa.

 

[JayKosta]

Campy has that "Italian aura" and is generally well made and functions well.
Shimano is also good for function and durability, plus it is more widely available.
SRAM - I don't know. But, the 'double click' shifters seem like a good idea, if they are durable.
The size and shape of your hand infuences what brifters work best for you.

Regarding the brake hoods, have you removed the bar tape and positioned the hoods to where they are most comfortable for you?

For wheels and tires, I place a higher value on durability than on performance.
Especially when on long 'unsupported' rides, it is nice to be able to ride home...

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[Parera]

Regarding the brake hoods, have you removed the bar tape and positioned the hoods to where they are most comfortable for you?

The box of 4 different alloy handlebars in my garage would seem to indicate that would be the case (one gripe I have about the "big brand bike in a box" setup, you get handlebars that don't work for your anatomy). But yes, moved them up and down, finding limited success.

I'm running Shimano 105 (5600) and I don't find them to be wholly disagreeable, though I should qualify that by saying I spend most of the time in the drops these days. Roubaix's have massive headtubes and being more flexible now I'm keen on a lower position.

The newer Shimano shape just feels odd, like an overly large doorknob or something. I don't know if that is a setup issue or not, but it seems like Shimano running both cables under the bar tape just makes them feel on the "large" side for my slender hands. So are their tweaks for 6700/7900 style hoods that might make their characteristics change to be a bit more inviting?

 

[Parera]

By process of elimination it sounds like you're ready to get into a Campy group, and Chorus would suit you just fine. Your mechanics unfamiliarity with Campy hasn't got me worried either, from an ex-wrench standpoint Campy was always the easiest to set up. Record hubs are great, some other options out there too especially if you go custom, as you well know seeing as you're a fan the wheebuilders thread.

You may get some positive comments on SRAM, but I came to a realization recently that the SRAM road grouppos came out in a bad economy, they're cheap and most people can put up with the inadequacies. Your attention to detail would lead me to believe that you wouldn't like it. I've been riding Campy groups for about 20 years with the exception of a Suntour Cyclone group in the mid 80's, during my 3 month SCRAM RED trial last year I was wishing for that old Suntour group again, anything else would have been better.

Yeah, as I said, I'm learning towards Campy. I like trying new things...

Something that piqued my interest in SRAM is the weight, a Red BB30 group is fairly enticing at so few grams. But, quality seems like a concern and even with a good warranty it might not outweigh the benefits, even though when I hear "sub 15 pounds" my eyes glaze over...

While I have your attention, are there any functional differences between 2010 and 2011 Campy? I've seen some scorching deals on 2010 Record/Super Record bits around the web, so maybe I can mix some of them into my build.

Also, the Campy braking options initially confused me, but a dual/single front & rear setup is fine, no? Single pivot would seem like it would be adequate in the rear...

 

[Benotti69]

I dont understand why people dont mix and match more...

I like shimano brake levers but also love the skeleton calipers of campy...

i always thought Robert Millar's comment about whether he preferred Campy or Shimano was bang on; "doesn't matter what one you are using you always want the other one"

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Yeah, as I said, I'm learning towards Campy. I like trying new things...

Something that piqued my interest in SRAM is the weight, a Red BB30 group is fairly enticing at so few grams. But, quality seems like a concern and even with a good warranty it might not outweigh the benefits, even though when I hear "sub 15 pounds" my eyes glaze over...

While I have your attention, are there any functional differences between 2010 and 2011 Campy? I've seen some scorching deals on 2010 Record/Super Record bits around the web, so maybe I can mix some of them into my build.

Also, the Campy braking options initially confused me, but a dual/single front & rear setup is fine, no? Single pivot would seem like it would be adequate in the rear...

You've got to excuse me but the complete weight of lightweight race bikes means nothing, especially if you're not racing at an elite level, it's all about the fitness of the rider. Sub 15 pounds to me means chincy, fragile, and unstable, no glaze on my eyes. When people talk about ultra lightweight bikes as if Jesus touched them on the head, they inevitably come on forums like these telling us about either what a mistake they made, or broken frame or parts. Campy hasn't changed much over the years mechanically, most of their changes are cosmetic, in fact most pros that are on Campy don't even ride complete Super Record grouppos, mostly Record, it's just a name that they charge more for Ti and ceramic bits. Single pivot rear brakes were done to save a gram or two, and since the majority of your stopping power is at the front dual pivot rears are unnecessary.

 

[ElChingon]

I dont understand why people dont mix and match more...

I like shimano brake levers but also love the skeleton calipers of campy...

i always thought Robert Millar's comment about whether he preferred Campy or Shimano was bang on; "doesn't matter what one you are using you always want the other one"

I have a friend that is beyond mix and match, I need to take a picture of his setup as it will drive some purist totally mad . Mixing and matching works fine but causes again the purist to basically have a heart attack and they try to scare people away from it just because they don't like it or couldn't get it to work.

I usually slow build by using old functional components where I can and upgrade as I find deals that end up making the bike way cheaper, sure it takes time though.

 

[ElChingon]

You've got to excuse me but the complete weight of lightweight race bikes means nothing, especially if you're not racing at an elite level, it's all about the fitness of the rider. Sub 15 pounds to me means chincy, fragile, and unstable, no glaze on my eyes. When people talk about ultra lightweight bikes as if Jesus touched them on the head, they inevitably come on forums like these telling us about either what a mistake they made, or broken frame or parts. Campy hasn't changed much over the years mechanically, most of their changes are cosmetic, in fact most pros that are on Campy don't even ride complete Super Record grouppos, mostly Record, it's just a name that they charge more for Ti and ceramic bits. Single pivot rear brakes were done to save a gram or two, and since the majority of your stopping power is at the front dual pivot rears are unnecessary.

Well in Campy 11 speed the shifter guts are quite different and non-interchangeable as in previous years, yes some are different but I could usually use most of a 10 speed shifter and downgrade it to 9, and a 9 to 10, the derailures have minor differences but basically the same, I'm still having trouble seeing the QS upgrade

Weight is a factor, it may not be a performance factor to the average Joe but it is still a factor, even if its a bragging factor. I like to think a part made light had the engineers (or designers) at least coming up with ways to maintain quality yet reduce the weight of the part. A factor to be pondered and a good coffee stop discussion piece for the ages

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Well in Campy 11 speed the shifter guts are quite different and non-interchangeable as in previous years, yes some are different but I could usually use most of a 10 speed shifter and downgrade it to 9, and a 9 to 10, the derailures have minor differences but basically the same, I'm still having trouble seeing the QS upgrade

Weight is a factor, it may not be a performance factor to the average Joe but it is still a factor, even if its a bragging factor. I like to think a part made light had the engineers (or designers) at least coming up with ways to maintain quality yet reduce the weight of the part. A factor to be pondered and a good coffee stop discussion piece for the ages

Yeah, you're right about the difference between 9/10 and 11. I wouldn't say "quite" different, maybe a little, the general mechanics of how Ergopower operates hasn't changed much at all. We're talking about new groups anyho and 11s has been around for what, 3-4 years now, it's been a minute. I can count on one hand of people I know who still ride Campy 9 or 10s including on this forum.

Weight weenies,,, BOO!

 

[Parera]

You've got to excuse me but the complete weight of lightweight race bikes means nothing, especially if you're not racing at an elite level, it's all about the fitness of the rider. Sub 15 pounds to me means chincy, fragile, and unstable, no glaze on my eyes. When people talk about ultra lightweight bikes as if Jesus touched them on the head, they inevitably come on forums like these telling us about either what a mistake they made, or broken frame or parts. Campy hasn't changed much over the years mechanically, most of their changes are cosmetic, in fact most pros that are on Campy don't even ride complete Super Record grouppos, mostly Record, it's just a name that they charge more for Ti and ceramic bits. Single pivot rear brakes were done to save a gram or two, and since the majority of your stopping power is at the front dual pivot rears are unnecessary.

Yeah, doing the weight weenie thing IS kind of silly, won't argue with that; especially after adding bottles, cages, the hideous-yet-functional-and-somewhat-necessary-seat-bag, pump/CO2, etc that lightweight silliness goes straight out the window. And anyways, at 170lbs a few pounds won't make or break anything.

Additionally, I won't be riding lightweight wheels, instead sturdy, reliable handbuilts, the way to Good Lord intended!

I like the ride quality of carbon fiber for the roads in Southern Oregon, we have that awful country chipseal that can really buzz you on a long ride. Not that I have anything against steel, I seriously considered picking up a Columbus Zona tubed frame from a builder in town but I chose to stick with the frame material that has served me very well, so far. And who knows, maybe if I win the lottery or marry a rich old woman I can get a Landshark.

 

[42x16ss]

Yeah, doing the weight weenie thing IS kind of silly, won't argue with that; especially after adding bottles, cages, the hideous-yet-functional-and-somewhat-necessary-seat-bag, pump/CO2, etc that lightweight silliness goes straight out the window. And anyways, at 170lbs a few pounds won't make or break anything.

Additionally, I won't be riding lightweight wheels, instead sturdy, reliable handbuilts, the way to Good Lord intended!

I like the ride quality of carbon fiber for the roads in Southern Oregon, we have that awful country chipseal that can really buzz you on a long ride. Not that I have anything against steel, I seriously considered picking up a Columbus Zona tubed frame from a builder in town but I chose to stick with the frame material that has served me very well, so far. And who knows, maybe if I win the lottery or marry a rich old woman I can get a Landshark.

Smart opinion to have. As others have said I'd stick with the Campy Chorus for the gruppo - it's perfectly servicable and IMO superior to Ultegra and Force at roughly the same price.

At your weight and with the roads you described I'd go with the Record hubs and get them laced to at least 28 front/32 rear Ambrosio clinchers with either DT or Sapim spokes. That will give you a solid wheel that will roll nicely at a decent weight (and Ambrosio's laced to Record will keep the purists happy )

What frames have you been looking at?

 

[Parera]

What frames have you been looking at?

http://www.desalvocycles.com/index.php

These were the steel frame options I was considering. Tested a buddy's frame, which is quite lovely, but something about it didn't set my hair on fire; I'm 26 and still a sucker for the "sexiness" of a carbon race bike, particularly if it's European. I can transform into a grizzled steel/titanium "purist" when I have some more years under my belt. Anyways, I definitely would like to get a frame built by DeSalvo at some point down the road, terrific folks to deal with (and not far from my home, either!)

Carbon frames I have been looking at are a BMC Race Machine; really like the ride quality (good combination of stiff/light/compliant), seems well engineered despite the funky tubing (love that it's NOT a compact style frame). BMC's geometry is spot on for my physique, too.

I also had a chance at a used but flawless Look 595 (physician's bike, of course...) but ultimately passed on it, the bike felt a bit on the small side. I'm ignoring the big brands this time, Specialized isn't really making anything that is affordable for me (their SL4 starts at $3000, sheesh!) and the only Trek I will ever ride is the 1981 Trek 412 I converted into a fixie beater/errand bike. Giant's compact geometry is kind of an eyesore to me, so no reason to spend money on a bike that looks like crap to my eyes.

Up until a couple months ago I was sold on a Cervelo S2 frame but then I was treated miserably by both Cervelo and a Cervelo dealer on a demo ride event (long story) so I relegated them to the "ignore" category.

Considered a Scott Addict, but those things ride so damn harsh and I'm a bit skeptical of a bike's durability when they are THAT light.

Outside of that, trying to get a frame in the $1300-1800 price range is sort of limiting, dependent on old stock from roughly 2008-2010 models. And of course, been searching in vein for a fair condition Colnago C50, but alas, no luck...

I can get a screaming deal on a new Race Machine so I will probably end up with that...unless BMC is terrible and I should avoid their frames like the plague. I have no opinion on their company other than the demo spin I took on a Race Machine.

 

[Notso Swift]

X's geometry is spot on for my physique, too.

Honestly this is more important than anything else you will enjoy the ride more, and there for you WILL ride more

Don't get me wrong the best bike I have ever had is a LOOK - and I had i am a custom Reynolds 531P steel that I still pine for, though most likely due to a heightened sense of nostalgia, as opposed to reason. But at the end of the day if it doesn't fit it IS crap


EDIT, taking out BMC for 'X' was not in any way a slight against BMC, quite the contrary, i think they are quite good bikes though i would not buy one now because I am an Australian and jumping on the Cadel Band wagon is not PRO! LOL I do have a couple of mates with them and they love them, one has 3!

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Campy has that "Italian aura" and is generally well made and functions well.
Shimano is also good for function and durability, plus it is more widely available.
SRAM - I don't know. But, the 'double click' shifters seem like a good idea, if they are durable.
The size and shape of your hand infuences what brifters work best for you.

Regarding the brake hoods, have you removed the bar tape and positioned the hoods to where they are most comfortable for you?

For wheels and tires, I place a higher value on durability than on performance.
Especially when on long 'unsupported' rides, it is nice to be able to ride home...

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

sram-if they are durable, which IME, they are not. Much more finicky, prone to failure(shifters). RD is a weak point also as well as pulleys, chainrings, BB bearings.

They will warranty anything for any reason regardless of how old they are. Great news but that tells me they know there are problems with some of this stuff and then must not cost much, when they throw the broken shifter away(as the lady on the phone told me, when I asked for a shifter small part).

 

[42x16ss]

Funny thing is, I've been using SRAM Rival on my training bike for nearly 4 years now and it hasn't been too bad (Although the first thing I did do was swap the chain out for an Ultegra). The only real issue I had was with the silly crank design deciding it wanted to start undoing itself halfway through a 6 hour training ride

The hood feel is ok IMO and I like the short throw on the gear levers, especially compared to Shimano. It does need a lot of TLC however - as soon as it even starts getting dirty shift quality goes straight down the drain....

 

[Parera]

Funny thing is, I've been using SRAM Rival on my training bike for nearly 4 years now and it hasn't been too bad (Although the first thing I did do was swap the chain out for an Ultegra). The only real issue I had was with the silly crank design deciding it wanted to start undoing itself halfway through a 6 hour training ride

The hood feel is ok IMO and I like the short throw on the gear levers, especially compared to Shimano. It does need a lot of TLC however - as soon as it even starts getting dirty shift quality goes straight down the drain....

In addition to the aforementioned high end campy project, think I might do a side project for my father. Found a ridiculously inexpensive Cannondale CAAD9 that is just the right size for my old man; he's a tall guy, 6'4" and this frame fits him like a glove). Been pushing him to get a road bike for a while now, only problem is the components on this Cannondale are...awful, to put it lightly. Cheap crank (which is a standard double; too big of gears for the terrain around here) tiagra/sora mix, terrible brakes, wheels, etc. But the frame is sweet, one of those black CAAD9 frames from when they still were making them stateside. Perfect shape save for a blemish on the left seat stay...

Anyways, figured I could of donate my well used 105 for his Cannondale; no sense in getting him a new group when at most he will be doing 50-100 miles week during the warmer months. As an aside, would 175mm cranks be adequate for a man of his height?. However, this project would leave me without a group on my winter bike...

So taking this little thread in the opposite direction, what group should I slap on my Specialized? Is Veloce even worth a look? Centaur is a bit spendy while Rival and 105 5700 are about the same price, yet the hood issue with Shimano would rear its ugly head again. Although, as I think I previously mentioned, the Roubaix's geometry kind of has me riding in the drops anyways...thoughts?

 

[Notso Swift]

175mm cranks will be fine, getting longer isn't actually that easy (limited supply but all the big boys do have them) and I would argue that with age the angular movement is easier on knees and it allows a higher cadence to be maintained in those lower gears, also providing less stress on the body
BTW I am 195cm, so just a little taller than you old man, I am a spinner AND a sprinter, even in the sprints I am more likely to be doing 130-140 than cranking the 53-11. I was thinking about shorter cranks for a while there, allowing me to be more planted in the seat at those high cadences
PS is a it a compact, if so perfect

 

[Parera]

175mm cranks will be fine, getting longer isn't actually that easy (limited supply but all the big boys do have them) and I would argue that with age the angular movement is easier on knees and it allows a higher cadence to be maintained in those lower gears, also providing less stress on the body
BTW I am 195cm, so just a little taller than you old man, I am a spinner AND a sprinter, even in the sprints I am more likely to be doing 130-140 than cranking the 53-11. I was thinking about shorter cranks for a while there, allowing me to be more planted in the seat at those high cadences
PS is a it a compact, if so perfect

Yeah, Compact 50/34. Figured I could get him a 11-28 for the back, would let him get up anything that's under 8-9% while keeping a good cadence.

 

[42x16ss]

Yeah, Compact 50/34. Figured I could get him a 11-28 for the back, would let him get up anything that's under 8-9% while keeping a good cadence.

That would be perfect, huge spread of of gears and the chainring size combined with the crank length will be easy on the knees too....

 

[Parera]

As for myself, should I stick with 175mm? I'm 6'1.5", well proportioned (ie not lanky limbed/long torso). 175mm is what ive been using for 2 seasons, my MTB is also. Would I benefit bumping down to a 172.5mm, especially if I go with a standard double?

 

[42x16ss]

As for myself, should I stick with 175mm? I'm 6'1.5", well proportioned (ie not lanky limbed/long torso). 175mm is what ive been using for 2 seasons, my MTB is also. Would I benefit bumping down to a 172.5mm, especially if I go with a standard double?

Give the 172.5 a try. On the road you will usually ride at a higher cadence than the MTB and this will help you to spin a little more. If you are thinking of racing the shorter cranks will make it slightly easier to respond to accelerations in the bunch as well.

The only correct answer is to try them both and go with what you prefer

 

[Parera]

Hmm. Sounds like a plan; with all these bike projects going around I can just stick with 175mm compact chainring for the winter rig, and get some campy 172.5 cranks for my new baby.

Quick question; there's no huge drawback installing campy cranks to a BB30 frame, yes? Adapter cups and I'm good to go? Or will someone cry foul that someone is "not using a BB30 frame to its fullest potential!!"