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theyoungest said:
Whether true or not that aside was not central to my point...... but who is going to threaten what?
Nearly said:
Stage wins, polka dots with Feillu, combativity prize.
All of these are more than Evans will manage at the Tour, especially if he does the sensible thing and tries to win the Giro, where he'll have a good chance. Without Evans BMC are nothing Tour-wise. If he's got plenty left in the tank he could threaten the top 10, maybe top 5 if things go his way (don't get angry, ACF, I'm proposing this on the back of a podium Giro placing, hence I'm perhaps underselling the chances a fresh Evans would have). If not he could go the way of the likes of Sastre (17th), Evans himself (30th), Pellizotti (43rd) and Menchov (65th) last year. Only last year Cervélo and Liquigas, at least, had plenty of other guys to achieve stuff to cover for that disappointment. BMC won't, therefore their Tour is entirely contingent on Evans doing well.
But as I said, I don't agree with the decision, mostly because of them talking about how the early season was important, and basically selling the smaller teams down the river. BMC allegedly have the sixth biggest budget in the péloton, yet an embarrassing lack of depth. Now, however, I hope they do well at the Tour, otherwise we'll be ruing them not inviting Vacansoleil because if Evans isn't 100% we'll be moaning that Vacan would have brought so much more.
theyoungest said:
They have done ok, but nothing spectacular. For instance during Paris-Nice, most important stage race in spring, they were pretty much invisible.
Libertine Seguros said:
Maybe and I would have liked to see them get a chance (but not at the expense of BMC/Evans although as I say it should not have come down to that choice). I suspect though that with the TdF teams bringing their 'A' teams to town (when they may not all have had the understandable early season "look at me" focus of the likes of Vacansoleil) it might not have proved so easy.
Your mention of Feillu of course reminds me that Vacansoleil in their own modest way have attempted to buy their way in.
Nearly said:
If Romain and Brice Feillu combined earn half of what an Evans or a Ballan earn I'll eat my cycling shoes (which are sweaty and disgusting as all hell
). Getting some reasonably high-profile French riders was certainly done with a eye towards the Tour, but it really is comparing apples and oranges.Buying their way into races (in a sense) would be getting someone like Thomas Dekker when his ban ends, which I imagine Vacansoleil will almost certainly try to do come July '11. If and when that happens I'll be one of the first to give them proper sh!t for that.
Dekker_Tifosi said:
I would like to question your first two points:
1) A dodgy team manager. If you are going to call lelangue a "dodgy team manager" then you would have to call a far proportion of team managers "dodgy as well.
2) BMC have supposedly spent the big bucks to get evans but when he is getting a considerable amount less than he did at lotto (can't disclose how much), it doesn't seem that they are "swimming in it"
3) I agrree with, the cobbled bmc team really need to perform big time this weekend and next weekend to show that they aren't one dimensional.
Congrats, you've picked the only race to which they were invited where they were (mostly) invisible, due--for instance--to Hoogerland's three crashes, and Brice Feillu's usual early season suckage.Von Mises said:
Although Vacansoleil might want to sign Dekker (in fact, just like you I think that is what will happen) it won't help them getting into ASO races, where they're not going to be happy to see ol' glamour boy Thomas.Moondance said:If Romain and Brice Feillu combined earn half of what an Evans or a Ballan earn I'll eat my cycling shoes (which are sweaty and disgusting as all hell
Buying their way into races (in a sense) would be getting someone like Thomas Dekker when his ban ends, which I imagine Vacansoleil will almost certainly try to do come July '11. If and when that happens I'll be one of the first to give them proper sh!t for that.
theyoungest said:
If it was a question of getting a Wild Card I'd agree (or Vacansoleil would have to make a backroom deal where they'd agree to leave Dekker behind). But if, as has been said (don't know if it's confirmed) that the top 17 teams in the UCI World Rankings get an automatic Tour place, a rider like Dekker would obviously help out Vancansoleil a great deal, given that he's capable of getting placings in races like the ENECO Tour, Romandie, Amstel Gold etc., which might take Vacs. into the upper echelons of the rankings. And the Tom Boonen case from last year proves that the ASO cannot force an already invited team to leave behind a rider against the teams' will.
It's a big hypothetical I'm scetching, I know.... And I'd much rather that Vancansoleil don't bother with Dekker at all. But a relatively cheap Dekker in 2011 will be far too great of a get for Luijkx and van der Schueren to turn down.
Moondance said:
Yet the Valverde case from last year kind of proves that they can, since he was initially hoping to ride as far as Verbier then abandon before going into Italy.
Then again I suppose the ASO would say they have no interest in inviting somebody who has no intention of racing the race, and GC contenders would have been happy to let him go since they knew he couldn't complete the race, which could have caused the ASO embarrassment if he started picking up stage wins left right and centre.
Libertine Seguros said:
Yes, the cases are slightly different. Valverde was/is banned from a (very small) part of the Tour, while Boonen was just seriously disapproved of. Former dopers are also seriously (most of the time) disapproved of, but technically they are allowed to race anywhere. I guess if it comes down to it Vacansoleil will always be able to go to court citing the landmark precedent of Tommeke v. ASO Directors Against Recreational Drug Use
As far as Dekker's "recreational" dynepo use is concerned, not really a precedent, is it?Moondance said:Yes, the cases are slightly different. Valverde was/is banned from a (very small) part of the Tour, while Boonen was just seriously disapproved of. Former dopers are also seriously (most of the time) disapproved of, but technically they are allowed to race anywhere. I guess if it comes down to it Vacansoleil will always be able to go to court citing the landmark precedent of Tommeke v. ASO Directors Against Recreational Drug Use
The ASO did manage to keep Basso out of the Tour, so maybe there's some sort of agreement to have EPO convicts lay low for a little while.
I really hope they don't sign dekker.
I think the guy deserves another chance, but hopefully he gets it elsewhere.
They need to sign a big name of some sort though. I'd really like vasc. to push for PT status somewhere down the line.
I think the guy deserves another chance, but hopefully he gets it elsewhere.
They need to sign a big name of some sort though. I'd really like vasc. to push for PT status somewhere down the line.
Timmy-loves-Rabo said:
I hope they don't either.... But unfortunately it makes too much sense for them not too. Signing him would be big news in the Netherlands and will get them significant amounts of expose (easily more than any other rider they can sign, within reason) and he would likely deliver pretty good results. Also he'll be relatively cheap too get since I imagine no major teams would be interested in him during his first year(s) back.
Strangely it'll probably also be the best move for Dekker himself, since he'll be able to get back into racing without the pressure of riding for a major team, and won't be expected to immeadiately recapture his 2007-early '08 form [insert reference to you-know-what here].
Several days behind the thread momentum on this, as I have been busy. But since I have been vocal about this earlier in this thread, I don't want to ignore it totally either.
Congrats auscyclefan94 on getting your man in the Tour.
Mayor suck for Vacansoleil, all the more since they and their Sponsor had all the reasons to be increasingly proud on what they were bringing to cycling, and how, and in a few weeks their entire balloon has been shot down from all angles. I think their worst news is not missing all the races per se, but that if in 2011 UCI WC ranking is really gonna matter, not racing in so many point gathering races is really really gonna hurt twice. If this is an French underhand way to increase the chances of French teams to make the cut, it would be cunning in the extreme.
But if I was Vacansoleil I would yank any future sponsorship of ASO events, as proven to be totally fruitless, they have arguably slid back on the invite scale, and invest in a strategy that would get their shirts in these high profile ASO races that doesn't rely on the organisers, or the current lot in charge.
Which only translates into one viable route: getting within that WC cut-off position, wherever it is set.
Yes, this suddenly makes Dekker probably the best thing they can do. I'd hate it, but ASO's blanket exclusion has left only one entry door open. It's a pro-profit organisation, and they can do what the hell they like, but the next time anyone at ASO steps on a high horse regarding "promoting clean riding" and "the good of the sport", I hope someone opens their mouths and does a proper foie gras on them, with their own words and all top-5 finish and long breakaway Vacansoleil shirts from the season so far.
I do want the big wild card names with B-teams to suck at the Giro, and BMC if Cadel won't go full (and I mean full) throttle, I do want BMC to suck at the TdF if he has nothing left in the tank post-giro, and I do want the invited wild cards that bring b-teams to them suck big time at the classics and the races they were sparing themselves for.
This has far less to do with chauvinism, than with the fact that I don't want to see the organisers that went for the names rewarded for ignoring actual results and just taking a punt.
Auscyclefan, when I finger BMC in particular it is not that I have strong feelings against Cadel, but simply that I find the total squad so lacking in width and strength, that their blanket inclusion across the entire wild card season so far does seem to be at the cost of Vacansoleil, who are faced with a near blanket exclusion.
It's pathetic and unjust (not that BMC can help that), and I do hope that organisers get duller races and exhausted or strength-preserving competitors as a result. Just to stop this from becoming the best way forwards for all. I think name-chasing by big money sponsors will harm cycling in the long run.
I think Sky has shown themselves to be a strong team, often side by side with Saxo, and with cracking results too. They have made their case.
Which leaves the unproven squads that have jumped out of nowhere. (or bottom 2009 WC raking, or thereabouts). BMC and RSH.
With Armstrong not it, RadioShack would be a heck of a lot higher on my WTF list, but with that man in the line-up, a TdF wild card is an automatic. Unfortunately. Although I think he got on better than most expected today, especially those that mainly trawled for the worst bulge-stills to prove a point.
In my opinion, the sooner he leaves the sport, the better. I expect he will do decent at the Tour, but the also-"battle" will distract from far more interesting riders and battle stories for the duration. Each year that excellent current and upcoming riders, and their battles, get overshadowed by the return-of-lance circus only adds to the void that hardly-regular-race-watchers will have to overcome when he leaves (and takes his team-lance generation with him).
I could live with a Vacansoleil exclusion of the TdF and a BMC inclusion if Vacansoleil had been put in races that were hungry for too. This way, meh.... I was looking forward to the Tour, first time in ages, but I now really hope that the cobbles will be neutralised by GC interested parties, with BMC, Sky, RSH et al at the helm. And that come the mountains Evans will suck, Wigans really won't have it, and Armstrong will blow. Only because I dislike the way ASO went about this. If it was this clear that results really didn't matter, at least stop the pretence and just make the announcement two months ago. Would be a heck of a lot fairer on those that really tried to claim that "Spring result" spot. (Sour, Skill, and Vacansoleil)
I was curious if ASO would judge it could afford to say a royal FU to the commitment of a sponsor like Vacansoleil for its "minor" races, a sponsor who had flagged up that it would increase its investment in cycling year on year. They obviously prized one more year with RSH (without knowing their attraction value for next year), BMC (a one rider team, and, sorry to say it auscyclingfan, running seriously in the falling leaves stage of his career), and Sky (which in contrast shows more "lasting" promise).
You know, to be frank... somehow, Dekker in a Vacansoleil shirt winning an big ASO race would be putting a wide smile on my face. And I'd still hate it for Vacansoleil, who could have become a team that could have been steered past Dekker onto greater things. With their current attitude and this treatment...no chance in hell, it seems.
I do hope that the Vuelta has better grace, and actually welcomes back the team that made a lot of ripples last year. If they get passed up for that too, if I was Vacansoleil, I'd consider looking elsewhere for a fairer return on genuine across-the-board investment.
And for now, fork... knife...hat...pepper.... I might be a while.
Congrats auscyclefan94 on getting your man in the Tour.
Mayor suck for Vacansoleil, all the more since they and their Sponsor had all the reasons to be increasingly proud on what they were bringing to cycling, and how, and in a few weeks their entire balloon has been shot down from all angles. I think their worst news is not missing all the races per se, but that if in 2011 UCI WC ranking is really gonna matter, not racing in so many point gathering races is really really gonna hurt twice. If this is an French underhand way to increase the chances of French teams to make the cut, it would be cunning in the extreme.
But if I was Vacansoleil I would yank any future sponsorship of ASO events, as proven to be totally fruitless, they have arguably slid back on the invite scale, and invest in a strategy that would get their shirts in these high profile ASO races that doesn't rely on the organisers, or the current lot in charge.
Which only translates into one viable route: getting within that WC cut-off position, wherever it is set.
Yes, this suddenly makes Dekker probably the best thing they can do. I'd hate it, but ASO's blanket exclusion has left only one entry door open. It's a pro-profit organisation, and they can do what the hell they like, but the next time anyone at ASO steps on a high horse regarding "promoting clean riding" and "the good of the sport", I hope someone opens their mouths and does a proper foie gras on them, with their own words and all top-5 finish and long breakaway Vacansoleil shirts from the season so far.
I do want the big wild card names with B-teams to suck at the Giro, and BMC if Cadel won't go full (and I mean full) throttle, I do want BMC to suck at the TdF if he has nothing left in the tank post-giro, and I do want the invited wild cards that bring b-teams to them suck big time at the classics and the races they were sparing themselves for.
This has far less to do with chauvinism, than with the fact that I don't want to see the organisers that went for the names rewarded for ignoring actual results and just taking a punt.
Auscyclefan, when I finger BMC in particular it is not that I have strong feelings against Cadel, but simply that I find the total squad so lacking in width and strength, that their blanket inclusion across the entire wild card season so far does seem to be at the cost of Vacansoleil, who are faced with a near blanket exclusion.
It's pathetic and unjust (not that BMC can help that), and I do hope that organisers get duller races and exhausted or strength-preserving competitors as a result. Just to stop this from becoming the best way forwards for all. I think name-chasing by big money sponsors will harm cycling in the long run.
I think Sky has shown themselves to be a strong team, often side by side with Saxo, and with cracking results too. They have made their case.
Which leaves the unproven squads that have jumped out of nowhere. (or bottom 2009 WC raking, or thereabouts). BMC and RSH.
With Armstrong not it, RadioShack would be a heck of a lot higher on my WTF list, but with that man in the line-up, a TdF wild card is an automatic. Unfortunately. Although I think he got on better than most expected today, especially those that mainly trawled for the worst bulge-stills to prove a point.
In my opinion, the sooner he leaves the sport, the better. I expect he will do decent at the Tour, but the also-"battle" will distract from far more interesting riders and battle stories for the duration. Each year that excellent current and upcoming riders, and their battles, get overshadowed by the return-of-lance circus only adds to the void that hardly-regular-race-watchers will have to overcome when he leaves (and takes his team-lance generation with him).
I could live with a Vacansoleil exclusion of the TdF and a BMC inclusion if Vacansoleil had been put in races that were hungry for too. This way, meh.... I was looking forward to the Tour, first time in ages, but I now really hope that the cobbles will be neutralised by GC interested parties, with BMC, Sky, RSH et al at the helm. And that come the mountains Evans will suck, Wigans really won't have it, and Armstrong will blow. Only because I dislike the way ASO went about this. If it was this clear that results really didn't matter, at least stop the pretence and just make the announcement two months ago. Would be a heck of a lot fairer on those that really tried to claim that "Spring result" spot. (Sour, Skill, and Vacansoleil)
I was curious if ASO would judge it could afford to say a royal FU to the commitment of a sponsor like Vacansoleil for its "minor" races, a sponsor who had flagged up that it would increase its investment in cycling year on year. They obviously prized one more year with RSH (without knowing their attraction value for next year), BMC (a one rider team, and, sorry to say it auscyclingfan, running seriously in the falling leaves stage of his career), and Sky (which in contrast shows more "lasting" promise).
You know, to be frank... somehow, Dekker in a Vacansoleil shirt winning an big ASO race would be putting a wide smile on my face. And I'd still hate it for Vacansoleil, who could have become a team that could have been steered past Dekker onto greater things. With their current attitude and this treatment...no chance in hell, it seems.
I do hope that the Vuelta has better grace, and actually welcomes back the team that made a lot of ripples last year. If they get passed up for that too, if I was Vacansoleil, I'd consider looking elsewhere for a fairer return on genuine across-the-board investment.
And for now, fork... knife...hat...pepper.... I might be a while.
If this Italian police raid business heats up, will Lampre be dis-invited from the Tour? That could free up a spot for Vacansoleil to get in after all.
It's a great scenario, lose an italian team who goes missing at tour time anyway, for vacansoliel, who with 4th place again showed they are a quality team.
Edit I also note carrara is riding well in italy, up there with scarponi who beat evans at tirreno
Edit I also note carrara is riding well in italy, up there with scarponi who beat evans at tirreno
This thread kid of reminds me of the F1 debates going into the season on which teams got the entry slots and which ones didn't. The fact of the matter is once the season got going those debates totally disappeared. The best teams were at the front and the crappy (mostly new) ones were at the back and no one cares about them.
Clemson Cycling said:
Which is exactly why it doesn't remind me of F1.
It's obvious that several people do care about these "crappy ones" all year round, and aren't infatuated exclusively by the big ones. Probably because they get more results than media exposure suggests. And that Vacansoleil, so far with stunning regularity, is actually the peculiar "crappy one" which they are all trying to chase down, "up front". And is getting desired podia places too (or missing them by a whisker).
That's exactly why cycling now isn't like F1 at all (which also seem to struggle to fill the start grid rather than have tricky choices about which team to leave out).
If we had crappy teams all consigned to the back, as seems to be the F1 nature of things, fair enough, great observation.
But going back to last Fall, that inconsequential-in-the-back position is actually held by some of the Big Ones, with this season well underway again. Heck, some parts of the calendar are coming to a close again.
Skill and Vacansoleil riders have triggered quite a bit of new and (so far) lasting interest, even with "normal folk" who don't follow the sport with close attention. If anything, certainly here, there are several people who care an awful lot, about the "smaller" teams and riders. Some people are starting to care about Vacansoleil in the NL in a way that they stopped caring about Rabo. Money can't buy everything.
People were not talking about Vacansoleil in the Vuelta because they were at the back. I bet that they wouldn't be at the back in the Tour or LBL either, given the chance.
karlboss said:
Carrara is a good rider for short stage races and hilly one day events.
Hoogerland proved to be better last year at Vuelta.
Between them, BMC, Retirement Shack, Cervelo, Garmin and Sky have a day in yellow, 2 riders low in the top 10, the team classification, Hushovd's stage, and a 2nd/3rd in the points classification.
Glad that Vacansoleil/Skil/Saur missed out for this.
Glad that Vacansoleil/Skil/Saur missed out for this.
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