The twilight zone called Portugal.

[Elos Anjos]

Yeah, you are going to probably deny that this isn't the common behaviour of 'Super Dragões', well known to do the same to several football referees. An organisation that has several members working in a private security company, who is the same company who has been protecting W52 in the last cycling races they attended.

An organization known for backing the current president of the sports team and his squad, who has several associations to corruption and who has a son very active in dealing the assets of the team, at times in clear prejudice of the sporting interest of the team.

And an organization where some members are associated with drug trafficking and with internal disputes that resulted in the killing of one of them by other members of the support group during the last football title celebrations which sparked a climate of threats and attacks throughout the city of Porto (a great city, not to be associated with the club - which had everything to be a reputable club if not for the group of shady people who took its reigns) in the subsequent weeks.

Of course the comparison with football had to come up

I don't deny that Super Dragões are a troublesome bunch. But your whole "argument" was not there. It's just what-aboutism. Sorry, but you're not dealing here with the common thug.

There's a long stretch about the case you're trying to make. It doesn't hold up. Guilty by association would make every organization crumble.

 

[baojoao]

Porto suspending sponsership was expected or not. Obviously they'll try to put the blame on others. To be honest i was expecting them to end "sponsership", but just suspension...
We don't know that much about this situation, but no one can deny that W52 Porto allready had several riders suspended in the past few years, and kept on going with the "sponsership" because they were winning.
About the threats to ADOP members, no surprise at all. Regular day in Portugal.

I just hope for no problems in the last stage

 

[PhiLiz]

I don't even particularly blame Porco for the doping case itself. This team always reeked ever since its inception in 2013 as OFM - Quinta do Lixo with the likes of Doposo, Marque, Caldeira and so on. They've always been a dirty bunch even before Quintanilha entered the team alongside W52 (one year before Porco got involved). It got worse in the years to come, of course, with a guy like Nuno Ribeiro in charge and Balarcon going full Chernobyl.

Porco had, in fact, little to do with the team aside from naming rights, a small fraction of the budget and the team bus. Of course it's funny the way they claimed every glory moment over the last few years and, now, they've already suspended the sponsorship. Guilty by association? Please, Porco was more than happy to associate themselves with the team while collecting the trophies for the museum.

Now, Porco is to blame for some other things: the 2019 ITT that ended in Porto (the city) was already shameful (Brandão was threatened, insulted and spat on) and now we have threats to the ADOP director. This is quite common behaviour from some Porco supporters and not at all surprising. I had warned last week that violence was a possibility. I also fear for riders' safety during Volta.

Then, all this BS about "the tests were clean" and "innuendo" is a joke. The watts produced in Portugal (not just by W52-Porco but also ex-Efapel, now Glassdrive and some other teams) were laughable, every team has some connection to past doping cases and the difference between the Portuguese team performances in Portugal and outside of it really say it all. Porco was just one of them, but also the worst offenders in the last few years. Only someone that is clueless about "clinical" issues can try to justify what's happening as "only speculation" or something absurd like that.

 

[Elos Anjos]

The point is logical, not historical or social. Cherry-picking is not a proof whatosever.
The fact that you are associated with your parents and they are poor and dumb doesn't make you necessarily poor and dumb.
The fact that an employer accepts bribes doesn't necessarily make every employee below or above also bribable.

You are all mixing up some fans behavior, WC52 beahavior and the club in a giant illogical mess. Witch-hunting.

I don't care less if someone in the club is guilty or not. I'm just stating that there is no evidence.

 

[PhiLiz]

Oh, now it's "WC52" (where did the "C" came from, btw?)! All these years, while they were winning it was this:

 

[Elos Anjos]

Pathetic

So, if I show you a litte boy sitting with Obama does that make him responsible for bombing Syria?

"Your honor, as you can see, this picture clearly shows the culprits".

"Hmm...yes....how couldn't I see...years of studying...so clever...case closed."

 

[Elos Anjos]

Not much difference from ancient phrenology methods: how can we find the accused is guilty?

Just look at his face...he looks like a doper.

 

[PhiLiz]

I really don't have any interest in discussing this clown show in football terms which has been your intention all along. In cycling terms it's impossible, I'm afraid, my interlocutor doesn't even know the proper name of the team in question...

Anyway, it's nice for everyone to understand that even with all the criminal proceedings, all the nuclear performances, previous doping bans and the record of someone like Nuno Ribeiro, there's still room for this kind of """arguments""" when one of the most obviously doped teams in the world faces some consequences.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Well, that was quick.

When an "argument" is considered posting a picture with the president of FC Porto club I'm quite sad because it means you're not capable of addressing my points.

It gets comical when you're the one complaining about footbal after mixing up everything.

I have better things to do than pollishing a thurd (pede para cagar e sai )

 

[PhiLiz]

You have excellent "arguments" about the case indeed. Have you learned the name of the team by now?

You're just salty because your club was in bed with the most doped up team in Portugal. Win at all costs, cOnTrA tUdO e CoNtRa tOdOs!!!!11111

Those photos really """showed""" how disconnected the club was from the winnings of the cycling team and how Porco never collected all the glory from "W52" results. Top kek.

 

[Ripper]

You have excellent "arguments" about the case indeed. Have you learned the name of the team by now?

You're just salty because your club was in bed with the most doped up team in Portugal. Win at all costs, cOnTrA tUdO e CoNtRa tOdOs!!!!11111

Those photos really """showed""" how disconnected the club was from the winnings of the cycling team and how Porco never collected all the glory from "W52" results. Top kek.

What is "kek"? Is it LOL?

Also, not sure what the argument of Elos Anjos is?

 

[ngent41]

What is "kek"? Is it LOL?

Ya, it means LOL, it comes from world of warcraft.

 

[Elos Anjos]

What is "kek"? Is it LOL?

Also, not sure what the argument of Elos Anjos is?

I reckon you didn't have time to read or perhaps just didn't care about what was being said.

It's a bit hard to explain as you seem to be out of the Portuguese context but it all goes down to if you're guilty by association or not.

W52 are doped to their gills. OK, everyone agrees with that. Also, they have a "naming" and "sponsoring" contract with the most important club from Porto city. It's main sports activity is football, although they have more sports.

The point is that they have been the most successful team for decades, inside and outside the Portuguese championships.

1) On why they have been successful is a matter of hot dispute, either to bribes or to sportmanship, but mainly because Portuguese sports scene puts much emotional investment on footbal. There is a wide, very wide audience in both Portuguese newspapers and television that thrives on every weekly scandal between Portuguese footbal teams.

2) I won't dabble more on that, but here's the point: the nitwits above see the W52 UCI suspension as a clear confirmation that the entire club is also guilty, that top managers all knew about it and have been doing that in all other sports and are liable for that. This confirms their narrative on the why above in 1) and provides an argument for why other teams have been losing.

3) That is why, without any evidence (well, one nitwit provided a picture, poor fella), they use the suspension not to discuss the state of Portuguese cycling in general but to witchhunt. Seriously, how stupid can you be? Even a *** frehsman law student can see that a picture doesn'mean squat. So, there you have it. It's not about fact checking, it's about holding up the narrative that they have inside their brains all along and that pertains mainly the football team.

4) footbal behavior in Portugal is an image of the country: poor, ***, stupid. We would be much better without it. It's not just Super Dragões, NN, JuveLeo that are criminal. It's also these cheap "jokes" and the idea that you're guilty by association. It's a tribal sports for tribal mentalities.

Finally, I couldn't care less if top managers are guilty or not. If there is evidence, bring them down.

 

[PhiLiz]

What is "kek"? Is it LOL?

Also, not sure what the argument of Elos Anjos is?

It's LOL, yes.

Argument? Summarized: "PORCO DINDU NUFFIN!!!!!1111"

Typical andrade: throw big parties and make a big fuss about winning Grandíssima, have the trophies in their museum and then, when everything blows up:

just the secondary sponsor
only naming rights
can't be guilty by association

Like I said and was conveniently ignored: the team was dirty before, no doubt about it. Every single team in Portugal is. However, it'd be foolish to ignore the way Porco took advantage of the dirty victories and stayed with their sponsorship after several doping scandals. They'd have continued to support the team had the UCI not intervened.

 

[Ricco']

I reckon you didn't have time to read or perhaps just didn't care about what was being said.

It's a bit hard to explain as you seem to be out of the Portuguese context but it all goes down to if you're guilty by association or not.

W52 are doped to their gills. OK, everyone agrees with that. Also, they have a "naming" and "sponsoring" contract with the most important club from Porto city. It's main sports activity is football, although they have more sports.

The point is that they have been the most successful team for decades, inside and outside the Portuguese championships.

1) On why they have been successful is a matter of hot dispute, either to bribes or to sportmanship, but mainly because Portuguese sports scene puts much emotional investment on footbal. There is a wide, very wide audience in both Portuguese newspapers and television that thrives on every weekly scandal between Portuguese footbal teams.

2) I won't dabble more on that, but here's the point: the nitwits above see the W52 UCI suspension as a clear confirmation that the entire club is also guilty, that top managers all knew about it and have been doing that in all other sports and are liable for that. This confirms their narrative on the why above in 1) and provides an argument for why other teams have been losing.

3) That is why, without any evidence (well, one nitwit provided a picture, poor fella), they use the suspension not to discuss the state of Portuguese cycling in general but to witchhunt. Seriously, how stupid can you be? Even a *** frehsman law student can see that a picture doesn'mean squat. So, there you have it. It's not about fact checking, it's about holding up the narrative that they have inside their brains all along and that pertains mainly the football team.

4) footbal behavior in Portugal is an image of the country: poor, ***, stupid. We would be much better without it. It's not just Super Dragões, NN, JuveLeo that are criminal. It's also these cheap "jokes" and the idea that you're guilty by association. It's a tribal sports for tribal mentalities.

Finally, I couldn't care less if top managers are guilty or not. If there is evidence, bring them down.

You missed the point. I'm not saying that the club is into the doping scheme of the cycling team or that they knew about that. I think it's a bit naive for anyone to be sponsoring a team and be oblivious to the results and performances that are acheived (either Porto with Alarcon, Veloso, etc.; Efapel/Glassdrive with SuperMaurio; Louletano in the past with Garcia de Mateos; Boavista with Benta) but that only with this team, when someone goes against them, we have this threatening behaviour that is extensible and similar to cases in several other sports where the club is involved and that comes always from the same group of individuals who have several close contacts with the top management of the club.

And it's not because I support other club. I couldn't care less about football and I just want that every football club in Portugal stays well away from cycling, specially the biggest three clubs. They have tainted already several sports and portuguese cycling scene is very damaged already to keep having this scandals.

 

[Elos Anjos]

So, basically you believe that the threat to ADOP president necessarily came from the top, and even not from the pope himself, that he allowed himself other managers to "take care" of this annoying individual who uncovered the doping running through W52.

Newsflash: people have free will. They can do stupid things because they choose to, even if from the outside it seems that they were told to.

Every hooligan or other violent or criminal behavior can, and in most cases is completely explained because some jerk-off decided to act like that. You don't need to explain their behavior by appealing to orders from above.

You're basically making a fallacy.

Why does this actually happen? Tribal thinking is part of the football fanbase related to the main big three clubs in Portugal.

 

[baojoao]

So, basically you believe that the threat to ADOP president necessarily came from the top, and even not from the pope himself, that he allowed himself other managers to "take care" of this annoying individual who uncovered the doping running through W52.

Newsflash: people have free will. They can do stupid things because they choose to, even if from the outside it seems that they were told to.

Every hooligan or other violent or criminal behavior can, and in most cases is completely explained because some jerk-off decided to act like that. You don't need to explain their behavior by appealing to orders from above.

You're basically making a fallacy.

Why does this actually happen? Tribal thinking is part of the football fanbase related to the main big three clubs in Portugal.

Porto had the opportunity to suspend or to end the sponsorship to W52 after severel bans. Why did they kept the sponsorship? Was it because they were winning?


The dominance of W52 Porto was always so strange(or not, i guess we all "knew" why, even you). And if the name on the team was Sporting or Benfica (the club i support) it would have been also strange(or not). Trying to take the criticism and this decision on a "conspiracy against Porto and W52" is just ridiculous.

I don't know what the future will bring, we don't even know a lot about this, but i hope that they catch all the guys destroying this sport, from w52 Porto or any other teams. I'm losing interest in portuguese cycling year after year, and mate, i love riding my bike and i spent hours watching almost every cycling competition, but in Portugal...fuckin' disaster. I just hope someone clean these guys destroying cycling, starting with Volta a Portugal director Joaquim Gomes(awful work, and those words about ADOP, my goodness). We have teams with managers that where banned because of doping, medical staff linked to doping in Maia MSS, that returned to cycling. I just wanted this UCI suspension a few days further, to know which riders Quintanilha was signing. Would have loved to see.




PS: i'm a Benfica supporter, and every year i go to Serra da Estrela and never had a bad gesture or words to cyclists from Sporting or Porto, so please don’t take this to football or an attack on FC Porto

 

[Elos Anjos]

Porto had the opportunity to suspend or to end the sponsorship to W52 after severel bans. Why did they kept the sponsorship? Was it because they were winning?

I can't answer you that. And no one on this forum can. My whole point was about drawing a line by saying that tribal thinking/witch hunting goes both ways.

After Alarcon, winning seems a good excuse for W52 doing business as usual. Probably he was the one who went full whistleblowing.

Probably someone asked and took people's word on it. It's the shortest path, although liable to deceive. If you sponsor a team and are suspicious that your athletes are winning because they're doping the only way to be sure is to test them. But perhaps only anti-doping authorities have the know-how and the technology to do that.

Either way, there's a long line between a team or an athlete doping and having a whole program initiated by the sponsors. That can be our business as outsiders, but only in terms of allegations. Let the law do what's there to do.

Probably that is what UCI understood in the 90's and 2000's: too much control and you will kill the sport by casting away valuable sponsors. So probably what's going on right now is UCI going after small teams to show that they mean business but ignoring some performances in World Tour.

 

[Ricco']

No way it was Alarcon the whistleblower I think, not with the W52 owner and team boss bankrolling his legal defense.

The guy who went away from pro cycling a few weeks before this exploded always felt strange somewhat to me (a young guy who came recently to the team and didn't want to be a part d the scheme?) but maybe the reasons he invoked were really true - after all he had a similar situation before coming back to Portugal from Caja Rural's junior team after not feeling adapted being away from home.

 

[PhiLiz]

Balarcon being the whistleblower is at the same time a ridiculous and hilarious theory. Gotta love casuals.

 

[Tim Cahill]

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No way it was Alarcon the whistleblower I think, not with the W52 owner and team boss bankrolling his legal defense.

The guy who went away from pro cycling a few weeks before this exploded always felt strange somewhat to me (a young guy who came recently to the team and didn't want to be a part d the scheme?) but maybe the reasons he invoked were really true - after all he had a similar situation before coming back to Portugal from Caja Rural's junior team after not feeling adapted being away from home.

For those adhering to the Tyler Hamilton timescale, O Gran Camiño finished on Mota's 1007th day as a pro cyclist.

 

[PhiLiz]

PJ faz buscas no ciclismo a dois dias da Volta a Portugal

www.jn.pt

Another round of searches and arrests two days before Grandíssima.

 

[baojoao]

PJ faz buscas no ciclismo a dois dias da Volta a Portugal

www.jn.pt

Another round of searches and arrests two days before Grandíssima.

Itwill be funny to see Volta a Portugal only with foreign teams

 

[PhiLiz]

Ace confirms that Francisco Campos, a former Porco rider now in Efapel, is one of the arguidos (a slightly more serious status than person of interest). A Bola also talks about 10 people arrested. Daniel Freitas from Boavista arrested as well. Efapel, Glassdrive and Boavista searched by the cops.

Joaquim Gomes, Grandíssima director, says he's ashamed and doesn't discard a cancellation... The same guy that a few days ago still allowed W52-Porco to register. Also the same guy that has allowed Grandíssima to be a thermonuclear laughing stock for years. Can't make this *** up.