The Wiggo Cool Down

[masking_agent]

So apparently Team Sky's Warm Down may not be needed after all.. Hmmm ??

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=HL_DWH_20130425:confused:

 

[Mr. McQ]

So apparently Team Sky's Warm Down may not be needed after all.. Hmmm ??

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=HL_DWH_20130425:confused:

"The cool-down group could, on average, leap a little higher the next day than those who’d sat around for 20 minutes, but the difference was slight"

Take that and apply it x1000 as a result of stage racing, and the difference is significant. SBW wins races because of cool downs.

 

[BroDeal]

"The cool-down group could, on average, leap a little higher the next day than those who’d sat around for 20 minutes, but the difference was slight"

Take that and apply it x1000 as a result of stage racing, and the difference is significant. SBW wins races because of cool downs.

Hey, new member who just happened to first post in support of Sky in the Clinic then ran down here to make another dubious post in support of Sky, nice job cherry picking one sentence when the rest of the article summarizes studies that conclude there is no posiitve effect other than suddenly stopping exercise might cause dizziness.

 

[Ripper]

Hey, new member who just happened to first post in support of Sky in the Clinic then ran down here to make another dubious post in support of Sky, nice job cherry picking one sentence when the rest of the article summarizes studies that conclude there is no posiitve effect other than suddenly stopping exercise might cause dizziness.

Well the article is hardly cycling specific and yet it still notes a slight benefit from a cool down. Sounds like a marginal gain to me. These things add up. (sarcasm)

I'm not saying the article proves improved performance. But it does not prove cool downs do not work, either. So it's pretty non-definitive.

 

[Afrank]

"The cool-down group could, on average, leap a little higher the next day than those who’d sat around for 20 minutes, but the difference was slight"

It's marginal gains. A very, very, very, very, very small marginal gain. But...still...

 

[Polyarmour]

It makes me wonder where the cool down theory came from in the first place. Some football coach somewhere convinces himself it must be a good idea and next thing you know athletes all over the world are doing it... until someone questions it.

 

[hiero2]

I think it probably predates modern football. And, I don't think scientific evidence is anything new, either. As I recall, from the 1970's, I read old Italian coaching material saying (paraphrasing): "we know scientifically that recovery is aided by repetitive unloaded effort until the body has cooled".

That is out of my memory - so take the accuracy with 2 grains of salt. But the basic idea that I remember was repetitive, light or unloaded, range of motion activity for the stressed muscle group. And that there was some science behind that.

I think JV's point, quoted in these forums on somebody's sig - is that most riders DON'T do a cool down, even though they know they "should". I'm sure somebody here will tell me whose sig that is, TIA!

 

[Ripper]

I think it probably predates modern football. And, I don't think scientific evidence is anything new, either. As I recall, from the 1970's, I read old Italian coaching material saying (paraphrasing): "we know scientifically that recovery is aided by repetitive unloaded effort until the body has cooled".

That is out of my memory - so take the accuracy with 2 grains of salt. But the basic idea that I remember was repetitive, light or unloaded, range of motion activity for the stressed muscle group. And that there was some science behind that.

I think JV's point, quoted in these forums on somebody's sig - is that most riders DON'T do a cool down, even though they know they "should". I'm sure somebody here will tell me whose sig that is, TIA!

I think it is/was Jimmy's.

The funny thing about the warm down thing is it is very evident post race. Like you hop on your trainer pretty quick. So it is great for PR - "Hey, see, we are warming down, we gots ourselves some marginal gains, it makes us go from crap to cool in one off-season".

Amazing science from Sky.

 

[Tapeworm]

Seems like a lot is being based on a sketchy article on a study looking non-athletes which was published in a newspaper - commonly known for their high level analysis of sporting physiology.

And let's look at the journo's other insightful pieces:-
Do ball chairs offer benefits?
Reasons not to stretch
Ask Well:- More Repetitions or More Weight? (a real cracker).


But yeah, skip the cool down.

 

[hiero2]

Seems like a lot is being based on a sketchy article on a study looking non-athletes which was published in a newspaper - commonly known for their high level analysis of sporting physiology.

And let's look at the journo's other insightful pieces:-
Do ball chairs offer benefits?
Reasons not to stretch
Ask Well:- More Repetitions or More Weight? (a real cracker).


But yeah, skip the cool down.

I guess I didn't state it clearly: I am rather certain there is scientific evidence, i.e. studies. They are probably old now, which does not invalidate them. And, if nobody is doing what they SHOULD, because it is too much work, and it is ONLY a marginal gain, then if you take that marginal gain, you are ahead.

 

[BroDeal]

Seems like a lot is being based on a sketchy article on a study looking non-athletes which was published in a newspaper - commonly known for their high level analysis of sporting physiology.

And let's look at the journo's other insightful pieces:-
Do ball chairs offer benefits?
Reasons not to stretch
Ask Well:- More Repetitions or More Weight? (a real cracker).

But yeah, skip the cool down.

Sketchy? Unless I miscounted, the article uses the conclusions of four different research studies published in peer reviewed journals. It also cites the opinion of two experts in the field, both of whom should have a good grasp of recent and historical research on the subject. How much more do you want?

The Sky connection made with this thread's title is pretty funny. If current research shows no advantage to cooling down then Sky, a team that touts its use of cutting edge coaching for gaining an advantage over its doping rivals, is engaged in the same clinging to traditions and old wives' tales that they accuse other teams of doing.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

1% down, 99 to go?

Cooling down is a red herring. Hot shower has the same effect.

 

[del1962]

The cool-down group could, on average, leap a little higher the next day than those who’d sat around for 20 minutes, but the difference was slight.

So there is a slight/marginal benefit from warming down, for the professional footballers according to the article.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So there is a slight/marginal benefit from warming down, for the professional footballers according to the article.

The word is cooling down Del, when you have been in the field you would know the word is COOLING down. WARMING up, COOLING down.

Only WARMUPS help.

 

[Cramps]

I'd recommend anyone calling the effects trivial to look at the actual Rey et al 2012 paper. The results from the boxjump don't seem to be trivial at all.

But even if one thinks this is a trivial effect, it is the effect of a single cool-down on a single work out. So it wouldn't be very prudent to rule out the possibility that the effects might be larger over a longer period of intense workouts.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3588659/

 

[Mr. McQ]

I'd recommend anyone calling the effects trivial to look at the actual Rey et al 2012 paper. The results from the boxjump don't seem to be trivial at all.

But even if one thinks this is a trivial effect, it is the effect of a single cool-down on a single work out. So it wouldn't be very prudent to rule out the possibility that the effects might be larger over a longer period of intense workouts.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3588659/

Thank you. This was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Mr. McQ]

Sketchy? Unless I miscounted, the article uses the conclusions of four different research studies published in peer reviewed journals. It also cites the opinion of two experts in the field, both of whom should have a good grasp of recent and historical research on the subject. How much more do you want?

The Sky connection made with this thread's title is pretty funny. If current research shows no advantage to cooling down then Sky, a team that touts its use of cutting edge coaching for gaining an advantage over its doping rivals, is engaged in the same clinging to traditions and old wives' tales that they accuse other teams of doing.

But current research shows marginal advantage.

 

[BroDeal]

But current research shows marginal advantage.

Nope. The articles cited showed no significant advantage. The one study with a "slight" advantage in jumping can be counterbalanced by the study that showed the cool down group experienced more muscle pain. If there was a true significant advantage then multiple studies would have shown it.

This stuff is no more effective than voodoo. It just goes to show how Sky is stuck in the methods of bro-science rather than current research.

 

[Ferminal]

None of it is very relevant to an aerobic sport?

 

[sittingbison]

It makes me wonder where the cool down theory came from in the first place...

I think it probably predates modern football...

It was first started by the 300 Spartans guarding the Springs of Thermopylae in 480BC. A Persian spy spotted the relief squad all basking around naked in the hot springs and combing each others long hair while the main squad was skewering Immortals.

Leonidas decided to let the spy report back to Xerxes with the story about how the Spartans were so unconcerned they had time to cool down by bathing in the midst of a fight, even though they were only one percent of the hordes of ravening Persians.

And thus the 1% theory started.

 

[Tapeworm]

This stuff is no more effective than voodoo. It just goes to show how Sky is stuck in the methods of bro-science rather than current research.

That's funny right there. I think BroDeal has bro-science on the brain.

And the reason why there aren't more conclusive studies is because if they have been done, they're aren't out there. But there's enough to conclude its a better idea than not. Including those in the article I added a couple more:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23486850
Non-athletes. More pain in warm up group, lesser in control and cool-down groups. Effects of resistance exercise. Cool down group faired better than the warm-up group. No change in muscle force.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23486836
Soccer players. Fractional improvements on all trials. 2 not statistically difference, 1 was.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22210472
Soccer players. No difference.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17535144
Random groups doing walking. Focusing on eccentric exercise (cycling doesn’t have eccentric loading). Warm-up fared better than the above.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18076266
Work da abz post exercise to reduce lactate levels.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12735426
Cool down reduces HR post exercise (not the real focus of study but the data stands).


Reduced lactate levels and lower HR seems good to me.

 

[BroDeal]

And the reason why there aren't more conclusive studies is because if they have been done, they're aren't out there. But there's enough to conclude its a better idea than not.

Well, there's a ringing endorsement.

Where are the studies that show there is any performance difference after two hours of a five hour stage? Better HR reduction after cooling down? Is that supposed to indicate there will be one whit of difference the next day? Studies on non-athletes? Poking people's muscles the next day then trying to determine whether a subject has less soreness? This is the type of crackpot science that pervades the field. It is professors with too much time on their hands doing poorly constructed experiments on too few subjects, which are often whatever group of undertrained slackers the professor manages to round up on campus.

 

[Tapeworm]

^ No arguments there. But as I said, if people have conducted research as to what is the best post-race strategy they haven't published it, and maybe for good reason.

Not all practices come from peer-reviewed studies. Sometimes they may want to keep it "in-house" for a reason.

 

[Captain Serious]

I thought post-race massaging somewhat replaces cooling down? Nup?

Here's some "antidotal" evidence from me, about me. Ha (comedy gold from me, as usual per).

A few times over the years, I've been out training and had to rush home like a maniac to get to work on time, to the point where I time-trialed 100% right to my front door. Each time I've done this, my legs killed me for about 3 days, as if I had DOMS from doing heavy weight. However, I was well accustomed to cycling hard, so it wasn't DOMS. The last time it happened I thought there was something wrong me.

Having said that, just because my legs were sore, I dunno if it effected performance, coz I don't have a powermeter.

boom shanka

 

[sittingbison]

...just because my legs were sore, I dunno if it effected performance, coz I don't have a powermeter.

boom shanka

what was your crank length? Were your chicken nuggets deep fried in trans fatty acids? Did your pedaling technique fail due to time trial position?

Perhaps you need to improve efficiency