Teams & Riders Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Well, Pinot may target top 5 in Giro or top 10 in TdF. Nothing more.
He has no chances in competition with CF, TD, NQ, Landa, almost retired VN. Even if they target double (and Pinot not), he will be weaker in both races against them.
The same with Porte, who must finally break his GT curse.
But we also have Aru, Fuglsang, Lopez, Zakarin, Majka, Uran, Bardet, Kelderman, Poels, Kwiatkowski, Martin, GT, both Yates, even Valverde. That's Pinot's level of competition - half of them he may defeat, but will be beaten by the rest.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re:

Well, Pinot may target top 5 in Giro or top 10 in TdF. Nothing more.
He has no chances in competition with CF, TD, NQ, Landa, almost retired VN. Even if they target double (and Pinot not), he will be weaker in both races against them.
The same with Porte, who must finally break his GT curse.
But we also have Aru, Fuglsang, Lopez, Zakarin, Majka, Uran, Bardet, Kelderman, Poels, Kwiatkowski, Martin, GT, both Yates, even Valverde. That's Pinot's level of competition - half of them he may defeat, but will be beaten by the rest.

Landa in that company is quite laughable.

Pinot was only 37 seconds behind Nibali and 46 seconds behind Quintana in Italy, he has definitely his chances against them.

 

[Netserk]

He was gifted more than a minute on the way to Ortisei because he wasn't a threat.

 

[drebelo]

Re:

Pinot has podiumed the Tour, was 4th at the Giro and nearly won the Tour de Suisse! Where does this nonsense of him being behind Porte come from? We're talking about real big gc races here. Not about P-N. Pinot is miles ahead of Porte who lost the Dauphine against Jakob Fuglsang.

By that logic Rui Costa is the biggest GT rider ever born

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Pinot has podiumed the Tour, was 4th at the Giro and nearly won the Tour de Suisse! Where does this nonsense of him being behind Porte come from? We're talking about real big gc races here. Not about P-N. Pinot is miles ahead of Porte who lost the Dauphine against Jakob Fuglsang.

2016 Tour Riche Porte 5th. Pinot 16th. Fuglsang also beat someone called Chris Froome in the Dauphine. When Pinot finished third in the 2014 Tour a certain Peraud finished second ..........to say Pinot is miles ahead of Porte is a bit silly but I do agree that at least Pinot has a podium courtesy of Contador and Froome crashing out of course but that's cycling. Ability wise I don't think he is better than Porte, Porte just has a case of the Gesinks.......what can go wrong will go wrong.

 

[skippo12]

Re:

He was gifted more than a minute on the way to Ortisei because he wasn't a threat.

This...some people have selective memories. He had two mediocre time trials and overall didn`t gain any time in the mountains. It was only close because the top 3 had some tactical games to play and never saw a threat in Pinot. His stage win wasn`t as impressive as well. Winning a sprint against Nibali, NQ, Zakarin and Pozzovivo isn`t the same as beating them uphill.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

He was gifted more than a minute on the way to Ortisei because he wasn't a threat.

...it made up for the time lost on Umbrail, which was a fluke. He was a threat. Too bad his ITT regressed, or he was second. Week 3 he was the arguably the strongest.

He's not the Black Album. Rubber Soul I said, maybe the White Album actually . 2017 is a big year for Il Grandissimo. I won the '17 predictions , mark my words: a podium...5 big wins. For some, it's a career.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

He was gifted more than a minute on the way to Ortisei because he wasn't a threat.

...it made up for the time lost on Umbrail, which was a fluke. He was a threat. Too bad his ITT regressed, or he was second. Week 3 he was the arguably the strongest.

He's not the Black Album. Rubber Soul I said, maybe the White Album actually . 2017 is a big year for Il Grandissimo. I won the '17 predictions , mark my words: a podium...5 big wins. For some, it's a career.

you said pinot would have made podium in the giro... so you were wrong.

 

[Breh]

Zakarin made up time to Pinot in the 3rd week so I guess he was even stronger.

 

[Netserk]

Re:

Zakarin made up time to Pinot in the 3rd week so I guess he was even stronger.

I see you forgot to dismiss all of Pinot's bad days. Not a fair comparison then.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Zakarin made up time to Pinot in the 3rd week so I guess he was even stronger.

Some would say he wasn't a threat...

Week 3, Pinot and Zakarin were the stronger riders. No doubt.

@portugal11, yes, I had Tibopino second . that prediction was a year too early, that's all .

 

[Netserk]

Pinot was only better than Nibali in one stage in the third week. Nibali made up time to everyone in the third week.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

Zakarin made up time to Pinot in the 3rd week so I guess he was even stronger.

Some would say he wasn't a threat...

Week 3, Pinot and Zakarin were the stronger riders. No doubt.

@portugal11, yes, I had Tibopino second . that prediction was a year too early, that's all .

Second? so are you saying he won't beat tom or aru? one of these guys will win

 

[rbl85]

Re: Re:

Zakarin made up time to Pinot in the 3rd week so I guess he was even stronger.

Some would say he wasn't a threat...

Week 3, Pinot and Zakarin were the stronger riders. No doubt.

@portugal11, yes, I had Tibopino second . that prediction was a year too early, that's all .

Second? so are you saying he won't beat tom or aru? one of these guys will win

Well we don't even know if Pinot will start the Giro this year so...

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Pinot was only better than Nibali in one stage in the third week. Nibali made up time to everyone in the third week.

Nibali was better stage 16 (Umbrail) and 21 (ITT) and that's how he got his podium. Pinot took time on Nibali stage 18, 19, and 20. The "free" minute that you mentioned was on stage 18. When Nibali and Quintana waited for Dumoulin to do the work...remember? Maybe they didn't have it...who knows. You can't have it both ways. After that, Pinot took time on stage 19, won stage 20. That's more than one day. That's three.

Rest-day management, regression in ITT, it has all been discussed. Still, a big success, back in the GT picture after two bad years. Encouraging.

 

[skippo12]

Re: Re:

Pinot was only better than Nibali in one stage in the third week. Nibali made up time to everyone in the third week.

Nibali was better stage 16 (Umbrail) and 21 (ITT) and that's how he got his podium. Pinot took time on Nibali stage 18, 19, and 20. The "free" minute that you mentioned was on stage 18. When Nibali and Quintana waited for Dumoulin to do the work...remember? Maybe they didn't have it...who knows. You can't have it both ways. After that, Pinot took time on stage 19, won stage 20. That's more than one day. That's three.

Rest-day management, regression in ITT, it has all been discussed. Still, a big success, back in the GT picture after two bad years. Encouraging.

The free minute was pretty obviously a gift. I just rewatched the end of the stage...Tom would chase Quintana and Nibali and let the Zakarin and Pinot make their move. Nibali and Quintana never cared about them as well and tried to drop Tom with an explosive move. When the lesser GC guys gaped the trio they looked at each other and did nothing. Non of them feared Pinot or Zakarin. Dumoulin started to accelerate on the last meters and tried to gain some seconds on Nairo and Nibali.
Pinot took a few seconds on stage 19 and gained bonus seconds in a sprint on stage 20.

In the 3rd week.
Stage 16: 1st Nibali, 3rd Quintana +0:12, Pinot +1:35
Stage 18: 3rd Pinot, Quintana and Nibali +0:58
Stage 19: Pinot, Quintana +0:12, Nibali +0:14
Stage 20: same time but Pinot finishes 1st, Nibali 3rd and Quintana without bonus seconds
Stage 21: Nibali, Quintana +0:30, Pinot +0:33

Overall this means for the 3rd week (if my calculations are correct):
Nibali
Quintana +0:52
Pinot +0:56

Zakarin actually was better than both Quintana and Pinot. with only +0:32 compared to Nibali.

I don`t like this reversed history. Pinot wasn`t the strongest rider in the 3rd week of this years Giro. He had some good stages but mostly depended on his good punch and sprinting ability compared to other GC riders to gain seconds. We can only speculate what happened to him on stage 16 but in the end the results are facts and rest days are a part of Grand Tours.

 

[Tonton]

It's not revisionist history my friend. Stage 16 makes all the difference in the world. Otherwise, you see a very different picture. The "free" minute is when Dumoulin stated that he wished Quintana and Nibali would lose the podium, because they were not willing to do the work.

We can slice it and dice it all we want, but the fact is that Tibopino had a great Giro, fell a little short, but put up a fight. Got himself back in the GT picture. If we talk about free minutes, let's look at all the GTs and we'll see a bunch of riders earning a podium on a ninja move. That's racing.

Pinot beat Zakarin...fact. Was 4th...fact. Attacked in the end, unlike Nibali and Quintana, save the small episode on stage 20, then only Quintana (and Pinot of course) raced to keep a gap on Dumoulin.

Come on people .

I really don't get why Thibaut is not getting more love: when he gets sick, he suffers, doesn't get 20 puffs to keep going, he may not be the greatest, but the kid is an all-around good human being. A fantastic rider. Just entering his prime. You wait...

 

[portugal11]

It's not revisionist history my friend. Stage 16 makes all the difference in the world. Otherwise, you see a very different picture. The "free" minute is when Dumoulin stated that he wished Quintana and Nibali would lose the podium, because they were not willing to do the work.

We can slice it and dice it all we want, but the fact is that Tibopino had a great Giro, fell a little short, but put up a fight. Got himself back in the GT picture. If we talk about free minutes, let's look at all the GTs and we'll see a bunch of riders earning a podium on a ninja move. That's racing.

Pinot beat Zakarin...fact. Was 4th...fact. Attacked in the end, unlike Nibali and Quintana, save the small episode on stage 20, then only Quintana (and Pinot of course) raced to keep a gap on Dumoulin.

Come on people .

I really don't get why Thibaut is not getting more love: when he gets sick, he suffers, doesn't get 20 puffs to keep going, he may not be the greatest, but the kid is an all-around good human being. A fantastic rider. Just entering his prime. You wait...

you should act like a mod, I was banned more than once due to clinic reasons. Give the example tonton.

 

[Netserk]

When the talk is about strength and who the best was in the final week, for sure it matters that Pinot was gifted a minute and didn't show himself to be stronger than Nibali in that stage. In the end, a minute is a minute, but it doesn't make him stronger or better than he was. We only put him down after you put him too high up

 

[movingtarget]

It's not revisionist history my friend. Stage 16 makes all the difference in the world. Otherwise, you see a very different picture. The "free" minute is when Dumoulin stated that he wished Quintana and Nibali would lose the podium, because they were not willing to do the work.

We can slice it and dice it all we want, but the fact is that Tibopino had a great Giro, fell a little short, but put up a fight. Got himself back in the GT picture. If we talk about free minutes, let's look at all the GTs and we'll see a bunch of riders earning a podium on a ninja move. That's racing.

Pinot beat Zakarin...fact. Was 4th...fact. Attacked in the end, unlike Nibali and Quintana, save the small episode on stage 20, then only Quintana (and Pinot of course) raced to keep a gap on Dumoulin.

Come on people .

I really don't get why Thibaut is not getting more love: when he gets sick, he suffers, doesn't get 20 puffs to keep going, he may not be the greatest, but the kid is an all-around good human being. A fantastic rider. Just entering his prime. You wait...

I don't think anyone denies that Pinot had a very good Giro and if his TT was better would have made the podium. I think he will be in the mix at the Tour with many other riders and if Nibali and Quintana turn up at the Tour in the same form as at the Giro the race could be very open especially with Aru, Landa, Chaves,Froome and Dumoulin slated for the Giro. Could be the most open Tour for years.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

BS if you ask me. Pinot was seconds away from a podium, Bardet one second away from losing his, that's about the same. With the amount of ITT in the Giro, Bardet would have been 5th or 6th at best.

Regardless, I like Bardet too, but besides Froome and Dumoulin, possibly Quintana and Nibali, I take PInot over the rest. The double is a bad idea, Madiot says one thing then another, we'll see. One year ago, you were all burying Tibopino. Read this thread. His Giro was great, the days after rest day weren't, it cost him the podium and maybe more.

Same time next year (and probably every year after that with portugal11 ), we'll circle back. I'm confident.

His Giro wasn't great. He was aiming for a podium and failed. Look, I like Pinot (except for the fact that he looks awful on his bike). He's a good rider and he's a fighter. But he's just not among the absolute best GT riders and no shame in that (I'd probably rate him somewhere between 7th to 10th depending on whether you look at chances of winning or consistency). I'm sure we'll see him fight for the podium and many more GT's to come but I wouldn't put my money on him ever winning one.

 

[Netserk]

Something like this? Not easy to place Landa and Porte...

Froome
Dumoulin
Quintana
Nibali
Bardet
Valverde
Porte
Landa
Aru
Uran
Pinot
Zakarin

Whoops, after I originally forgot Aru ( ) Pinot has been dumped out of the top-10!

edit: And Chaves as well, lol. I'd have him ahead of Pinot as well.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I would rank Zakarin higher than Pinot. He is super consistent and I think is as good as Pinot when Pinot is riding up to his normal level. Chaves also, but I think Pinot is better than Rigo

So thats 12th?

 

[Netserk]

Fair point, it's not easy though to account for different routes, consistency vs. peak, and weighting their recent GT performances after how far back they were and how ideal their preparation was. So it's just a quick list to give an idea of where Pinot ranks.

It feels a bit weird to have Uran so low when he was 2nd in the Tour, but he didn't really impress. I'm not sure Pinot could have managed that, even if he had no (really) bad days, no bad luck and was in his peak condition for the Tour last year.

 

[Valv.Piti]

There really isn't a big difference between Bardet, Valv, Porte, Landa, Aru, Zaka, Pinot, Chaves, Rigo etc. But yeah, depends on a lot of different things, but Im just not sold on Rigo, even though his Tour was super impressive.