Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

EPO in prefilled syringes is often the brand name Eprex, but in the U.S. that isn't used as much in medical settings (which perhaps makes it less available) because most insurance doesn't cover it. But if someone is going to bother to dope with EPO, it makes much more sense to buy the ampules and learn to inject themselves, which any diabetic can show them how to do. That way they can do smaller dose more often, as you would expect a rider to do. The ampules come in 10,000, 20,000, 40,000 units. I believe the same would be true for the pre-filled auto syringes so likely too big a one-time dose for doping.

I'm unfamiliar with US healtcare, in the country i live and work the various brands of EPO and its derivative are mostly available in prefilled syringe/autopen for ambulatory purpose (with the smallest dosage being 500 UI), vials are seldom seen outside of the hospital. Everything is covered by state sponsored healtcare for a small out of pocket fee.

But yes while it requires a bit more "technique" than IM subcutaneous injections are not that hard. The vials are good for 7 days after the first use, so they might end up being pretty wasteful for a microdosing regimen, unless multpile athletes are sharing.

 

[Sciatic]

I'm unfamiliar with US healtcare, in the country i live and work the various brands of EPO and its derivative are mostly available in prefilled syringe/autopen for ambulatory purpose (with the smallest dosage being 500 UI), vials are seldom seen outside of the hospital. Everything is covered by state sponsored healtcare for a small out of pocket fee.

It would seem to be easier to resell prefilled syringes on black market --or to sell any prescription drug that is picked up at a pharmacy. But in the U.S., patients get EPO injections in their doc's office. Standard Insurance almost never covers pharmacy prescriptions of EPO, but it does cover in-office injections. The same goes for Medicare, the national insurance coverage for over 65. So I have to drive to the clinic once a week to get it. So even if, let's say, I needed some extra $ and decided to skip a week and sell my dose to someone, I couldn't. I don't know if that changes the availability of EPO for doping here--as it probably just comes from abroad.

 

[Sciatic]

And . . . another one (apologies if this is a retread): https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1FvnXvsRdU/?mibextid=wwXIfr

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

It would seem to be easier to resell prefilled syringes on black market --or to sell any prescription drug that is picked up at a pharmacy. But in the U.S., patients get EPO injections in their doc's office. Standard Insurance almost never covers pharmacy prescriptions of EPO, but it does cover in-office injections. The same goes for Medicare, the national insurance coverage for over 65. So I have to drive to the clinic once a week to get it. So even if, let's say, I needed some extra $ and decided to skip a week and sell my dose to someone, I couldn't. I don't know if that changes the availability of EPO for doping here--as it probably just comes from abroad.

Funny how the different systems works, here the doctor would ask you "are you comfortable injecting the product yourself?" if he thinks you're capable of it, and show you how it's done if the answer is "yes", if it's "no" he would write a prescription for a nurse to come to your home when needed, with the state healthcare paying the majority of the bill.

It's on the doctor and the pharmacist to make sure you're taking the medication as directed, which is in their best interest because when it comes to medications that are relatively expensive and/or prone to misuse like EPO the state insurance might come to them asking "why is your patient taking twice as much as needed? That doesn't seems right"

But they are ways to game the system, for instance a doctor could write "not to be paid by the state insurance" on the prescription and it will (mostly) go under the radar, it then falls on the pharmacist to asses if there's something nefarious going on and to refuse to deliver the product if he thinks so.

 

[proffate]

No doubt this is true of a small minority. But most keep racing because they enjoy it and it’s good for your health as you age (assuming you don’t crash). At least that’s why I did - not because I had an oversized ego?

But point taken with a large enough sample size no doubt you would get some willing to dope to win masters races.

But you don't need to race to enjoy bikes, and the incremental health impact of "racing" vs "riding for fun" is probably actually negative.

 

[Sciatic]

Funny how the different systems works, here the doctor would ask you "are you comfortable injecting the product yourself?" if he thinks you're capable of it, and show you how it's done if the answer is "yes", if it's "no" he would write a prescription for a nurse to come to your home when needed, with the state healthcare paying the majority of the bill.

It's on the doctor and the pharmacist to make sure you're taking the medication as directed, which is in their best interest because when it comes to medications that are relatively expensive and/or prone to misuse like EPO the state insurance might come to them asking "why is your patient taking twice as much as needed? That doesn't seems right"

But they are ways to game the system, for instance a doctor could write "not to be paid by the state insurance" on the prescription and it will (mostly) go under the radar, it then falls on the pharmacist to asses if there's something nefarious going on and to refuse to deliver the product if he thinks so.

The method you're describing of course makes sense, and is done that way for many meds in the U.S.: I also take a biologic agent for autoimmune disease and that is prefilled syringe I pick up at the pharmacy. But it's different for EPO. One reason, I suppose, is because I have to skip the injection if my monthly bloodwork shows HGB is over 11.0 (equivalent to HCT of 32). But as you say that could all be handled via electronic means if the HGB results were sent to the pharmacy.

 

[Cookster15]

But you don't need to race to enjoy bikes

Of course not. But pottering around on cycleways at 20km/h isn't going to do much for your lifespan and health either. Regular competition can provide the motivation to train consistently which leads to good health.

the incremental health impact of "racing" vs "riding for fun" is probably actually negative.

Not 'actually negative' - only for a small minority. For the overwhelming majority the health impact of competitive cycling is overwhelmingly positive. Obviously the regimen that pros are required do is completely different. Your linked paper says this:-

Numerous studies in retired athletes have consistently shown a reduced incidence of heart disease and an increased longevity of life. Occasionally, however, intense exercise is associated with sudden deaths in athletes harboring quiescent yet potentially sinister cardiac diseases.

Occasionally. I could not see in your paper what this incidence was but I would think it is exceptionally low.

And of course if you harbor rare genetic defects then you are going to be suspectable to sudden death racing bikes where extreme cardio effort can be required. I actually lost a close riding friend recently for exactly that reason. But he had a rare heart defect.

But it is not right to say people who choose to do competitive cycling as they get older have personality problems. It is a very positive activity. When we get older running and jumping sports like football are less attractive. Cycling is low impact on joints and doesn't require athletic mobility but provides intense exercise for your cardio system. It is also performed mostly outside in fresh air - unlike gyms.

My father raced with other old guys onto his late 70s. He loved it for its health and social benefits. He and the old guys he raced with most certainly did not have personality problems that might lead to doping which was where this conversation began. And I can tell you these old guys all looked (generally) notably younger and physically in much better shape than other men their age who were not so active.

 

[proffate]

Of course not. But pottering around on cycleways at 20km/h isn't going to do much for your lifespan and health either. Regular competition can provide the motivation to train consistently which leads to good health.



Not 'actually negative' - only for a small minority. For the overwhelming majority the health impact of competitive cycling is overwhelmingly positive. Obviously the regimen that pros are required do is completely different. Your linked paper says this:-



Occasionally. I could not see in your paper what this incidence was but I would think it is exceptionally low.

And of course if you harbor rare genetic defects then you are going to be suspectable to sudden death racing bikes where extreme cardio effort can be required. I actually lost a close riding friend recently for exactly that reason. But he had a rare heart defect.

The sentence you quoted is the context of why the study is conducted, not the outcome. And intense exercise is not just triggering abnormalities, although sudden death is certainly a very visible negative outcome. More reading here. High intensity/high volume (i.e. racing) for decades will cause injury to the heart. And that's to say nothing of the effect on bone density, arthritis, etc.

It's widely accepted that gardening is the right amount of exertion for the goal of longevity.

> notably younger and physically in much better shape than other men their age who were not so active.

Note I said the incremental benefit of "racing" over "riding for health" so the correct comparison is not sedentary individuals. And I'm not even going to discuss the 70+ crew because those guys aren't racing, they're just surviving, and they aren't who we're talking about anyway (~45yo dopers).