Total Hemoglobin Mass

[BigBoat]

Why not this year? .

They have to allow Lance to finish up.

 

[quadsRme]

Somebody will need to be paid off before this type of testing will be allowed. ASO could pull a swift one near the end of the race and try it on the second rest day or last weekend of the race.

Do the organizations have to openly state what type of testing will be performed at the TDF prior to the race starting on July 4? If not what is to stop them from pulling up with a Winnebago with the test equipment loaded and ready?

 

[Escarabajo]

Why not just tell the riders the test is ready, and will be implemented soon, so don't dope. Let's see what that alone does.

I think that, after what happened last year with the CERA test, some riders are already scared. So it will be interesting to see how this Tour de France plays out..

 

[Anonymous]

Why not this year? Why wait a couple of years? Because you think the test is intrusive and there really isn't a serious doping problem in the sport?

I refer you back to my other questions.

"Next is that none of this stuff appears to exist outside of research facilities. There's no way anybody could plug this stuff in if it was decided to do so tomorrow. This can't be things that are thrown together by a PhD and a bunch of grad students and be expected to withstand scrutiny.

And there the fact that there appears to be no knowledge base as to what norms are, how findings are affected by variables like illness, injury, altitude, and many other things that I'm probably leaving out because I'm not a blood expert. I'm sure someone out there can add to that list. It's completely unlike the blood testing now done that has a huge knowledge and statistical base.

Then, finally I think, there's the issue of baseline testing without which none of this works. I have many nuts and bolts questions about that and I'd love to have someone else lay out how they think that could work."

And while this new test that appears not ready uses less carbon monoxide the effects on performance would have to be well established before you could use it between races. Would it put tested riders at a dissadvantage in recovery and preperation for the next race?

Why not just tell the riders the test is ready, and will be implemented soon, so don't dope. Let's see what that alone does.

Because they all read this forum.

 

[Cobblestones]

No, the CO test won't detect everything. But it will detect the type of doping that by far offers the greatest benefit to dopers: blood doping (and other forms of O2 carrier builders, including all plasma expanders, and the ability to both drain off or dilute blood).

I thought a little bit about the effect of other O2 carriers. I would say it is unclear. I'd guess free Hb might bond to CO just in the same way as the Hb in red blood cells and therefore would be 'seen' as part of the total Hb mass.

Altered O2 carriers such as Actovegin (colloquially 'cowblood') or certain perfluorocarbon emulsions might bond CO stronger or less strong than normal Hb. Logically, as long as any of those bond CO at all, they would be 'seen' as part of the total Hb mass. The question is: in what proportion?

If any of those would bond to CO stronger than Hb, it would remove proportionally more CO from the bloodstream and the measured Hb mass would come out even higher.

On the other hand, if artificial O2 carriers bond less likely to CO than Hb, they would be harder to detect using a CO test and the measured Hb mass might only seem slightly increased.

 

[Escarabajo]

On the other hand, if artificial O2 carriers bond less likely to CO than Hb, they would be harder to detect using a CO test and the measured Hb mass might only seem slightly increased.

But any little upgrade is good anyway, right?

 

[Cobblestones]

Concerning the testing procedure. I think it would be sufficient to test for Hb mass at one point in the third week. Remember the T mobile squad went to Freiburg right after the prologue, and Kohl got 3 refills during the TdF, so testing right before the race probably isn't good enough.

One could then establish a baseline in some out-of-competition tests later in the season, or even off season where the likelihood that a rider is blood doped is rather small.

If the test should be implemented this year (which I very much hope), I would think establishing a baseline now is not useful, since the riders would be warned. Grab them in the third week, say one-two days before the Ventoux stage (Kohl was topped off 1-2 days before important stages, because it takes about 1 day for a refill to show effects in performance). With all the research which has shown that crit goes down during a GT (i.e. Hb mass goes down without manipulation), a comparison with a baseline later in the year should be pretty conclusive.

 

[Cobblestones]

But any little upgrade is good anyway, right?

Yes, as long as any of those bond to CO, the measured Hb mass would appear increased. It might be that very weak bonding of artificial O2 carriers CO (and I have to admit, I don't know if that's the case, one would have to research) might make the measured increase small, possibly within the noise.

 

[BigBoat]

Concerning the testing procedure. I think it would be sufficient to test for Hb mass at one point in the third week. Remember the T mobile squad went to Freiburg right after the prologue, and Kohl got 3 refills during the TdF, so testing right before the race probably isn't good enough.

One could then establish a baseline in some out-of-competition tests later in the season, or even off season where the likelihood that a rider is blood doped is rather small.

If the test should be implemented this year (which I very much hope), I would think establishing a baseline now is not useful, since the riders would be warned. Grab them in the third week, say one-two days before the Ventoux stage (Kohl was topped off 1-2 days before important stages, because it takes about 1 day for a refill to show effects in performance). With all the research which has shown that crit goes down during a GT (i.e. Hb mass goes down without manipulation), a comparison with a baseline later in the year should be pretty conclusive.

Yeah... Good plan.

He was not all the way at 60% though, I dont know. If they bring it that high they have to train off blood to sleep (siphon it off....) So they could catch them simply night to morning, or day to day too.

 

[Anonymous]

Concerning the testing procedure. I think it would be sufficient to test for Hb mass at one point in the third week. Remember the T mobile squad went to Freiburg right after the prologue, and Kohl got 3 refills during the TdF, so testing right before the race probably isn't good enough.

One could then establish a baseline in some out-of-competition tests later in the season, or even off season where the likelihood that a rider is blood doped is rather small.

If the test should be implemented this year (which I very much hope), I would think establishing a baseline now is not useful, since the riders would be warned. Grab them in the third week, say one-two days before the Ventoux stage (Kohl was topped off 1-2 days before important stages, because it takes about 1 day for a refill to show effects in performance). With all the research which has shown that crit goes down during a GT (i.e. Hb mass goes down without manipulation), a comparison with a baseline later in the year should be pretty conclusive.

Be realistic.

the test as descibed here is nothing any of us, including you, ever heard of before yesterday when you found it in google.

The test does not exist outside of a research lab in a university. If it did it would be used in hospitals all around the world as it's obvious what it's medical value would be, expecially in trama cases.

There's not baseline data on norms or the effects of variables.

And your idea of basline testing at the end of the season would put the sport in the exact position is doesn't want to be in as it could end up invalidating results of major races held months ago.

And you presist that this is something that should be done this year.

I've made these points 3 times now and people seem to keep skirting around them.

Are the points not valid?

 

[Cobblestones]

Be realistic.

the test as descibed here is nothing any of us, including you, ever heard of before yesterday when you found it in google.

The test does not exist outside of a research lab in a university. If it did it would be used in hospitals all around the world as it's obvious what it's medical value would be, expecially in trama cases.

There's not baseline data on norms or the effects of variables.

And your idea of basline testing at the end of the season would put the sport in the exact position is doesn't want to be in as it could end up invalidating results of major races held months ago.

And you presist that this is something that should be done this year.

I've made these points 3 times now and people seem to keep skirting around them.

Are the points not valid?

No, the riders invalidate the race results by doping. Not the tests.

And the CO total Hb mass test has been known for quite a bit longer than yesterday. It really doesn't matter if you do it by testing blood or breath.

Any doping test will only exist inside research labs, because frankly, there's no reason to commercialize it. Trauma cases? Don't make me laugh. Why should they test total Hb mass (with CO no less) when they can simply rip open a bag and infuse? It's not like surgery becomes invalid and the patient is terminated because of a homologous infusion.

 

[Anonymous]

Be realistic.

the test as descibed here is nothing any of us, including you, ever heard of before yesterday when you found it in google.

The test does not exist outside of a research lab in a university. If it did it would be used in hospitals all around the world as it's obvious what it's medical value would be, expecially in trama cases.

There's not baseline data on norms or the effects of variables.

And your idea of basline testing at the end of the season would put the sport in the exact position is doesn't want to be in as it could end up invalidating results of major races held months ago.

And you presist that this is something that should be done this year.

I've made these points 3 times now and people seem to keep skirting around them.

Are the points not valid?

You really are embarrassing yourself, but when have you ever known it is time to stop digging your hole of ignorant response.

Why not try this, type complete gibberish from now on. That way, at least there will be a surrealistic comedy to it all.

 

[BroDeal]

Concerning the testing procedure. I think it would be sufficient to test for Hb mass at one point in the third week. Remember the T mobile squad went to Freiburg right after the prologue, and Kohl got 3 refills during the TdF, so testing right before the race probably isn't good enough.

You need to be able to test at any time. Otherwise riders will transfuse for the first part of the race and bleed the extra blood out after the second week.

FWIW, Hamilton's 2003 doping plan included two transfusions for the TdF, so he was doing things a little different than Kohl. It was five years earlier though. I also do not think Hamilton transfused two days before critical stages. Kohl said he needed the forty-eight hours to reach maximum effectiveness. That struck me as interesting because there have been rumors (starting with Dr. Prentice Steffan I think) that riders would transfuse in the morning and dump blood after a stage, thus getting around the early morning vampire visits and allowing the riders to race at a much higher hematocrit than 50%.

 

[Anonymous]

No, the riders invalidate the race results by doping. Not the tests.

And the CO total Hb mass test has been known for quite a bit longer than yesterday. It really doesn't matter if you do it by testing blood or breath.

Any doping test will only exist inside research labs, because frankly, there's no reason to commercialize it. Trauma cases? Don't make me laugh. Why should they test total Hb mass (with CO no less) when they can simply rip open a bag and infuse? It's not like surgery becomes invalid and the patient is terminated because of a homologous infusion.

There is the difference between a puff of CO and breathing several minutes of it isn't there? I see some studies out there on the performance effects of the test but can't access them beyond the first page.

I saw something yesterday, I though it was that medmd link someone posted in this thread that said something about medical applications but I go back today and get access to anything from that link.

Here's something I did find though.

"Questions of hemodilution during volume expansion in the field, ER, and OR would be rapidly answered. Hemoconcentration after blood transfusion, hemodialysis or bone marrow transplantation could be followed without repeated venipuncture."

But still it sounds like you are more knowledgeable in that than I.

The issue of it being not commerialized raises issues of standards, now many of these do you need,? ... would they be all prototypes,? and then... what does it cost.

Then there's still no baseline data on norms or the effects of variables that it would seem you need to make findings survive challenge.

 

[BroDeal]

T
But still it sounds like you are more knowledgeable in that than I.

Really? Ya think?

 

[Anonymous]

You really are embarrassing yourself, but when have you ever known it is time to stop digging your hole of ignorant response.

Why not try this, type complete gibberish from now on. That way, at least there will be a surrealistic comedy to it all.

you've been sucking lance's water bottle again haven't you. .. tsk tsk tsk.

really, this guy is proud to have one of lances water bottles from nevada city.

at least cubs fan throw home runs back.

 

[Cobblestones]

You need to be able to test at any time. Otherwise riders will transfuse for the first part of the race and bleed the extra blood out after the second week.

FWIW, Hamilton's 2003 doping plan included two transfusions for the TdF, so he was doing things a little different than Kohl. It was five years earlier though. I also do not think Hamilton transfused two days before critical stages. Kohl said he needed the forty-eight hours to reach maximum effectiveness. That struck me as interesting because there have been rumors (starting with Dr. Prentice Steffan I think) that riders would transfuse in the morning and dump blood after a stage, thus getting around the early morning vampire visits and allowing the riders to race at a much higher hematocrit than 50%.

All true. I was thinking this year only (or for that matter the first time when such a test would be administered). There you gain much simply by the surprise factor hence the one-time test late in the race with the baseline afterwards.

I agree, once the test is routine, it should be administered regularly, i.e. maybe 3-4 athletes each day.

jackhammer, yes, they have to breathe in CO for a few minutes, but keep in mind, (i) it's not pure CO, in fact, it will be mostly normal air with a tiny, but very well controlled fraction of CO in it, (ii) the time (several minutes) is to guarantee that all the CO has been taken up by the body (hence the re-breathing apparatus which means you're breathing the same air for a while).

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That struck me as interesting because there have been rumors (starting with Dr. Prentice Steffan I think) that riders would transfuse in the morning and dump blood after a stage, thus getting around the early morning vampire visits and allowing the riders to race at a much higher hematocrit than 50%.

You don't need to do a full bleed-off (literal draining of blood) to get the hct below 50%. Not only will saline do that, but plasma expanders, PFCEs and HBOCs are most beneficial to doping because they when used with blood doping don't raise the hct much. Same with EMP peptides. BigB says the benefits aren't as long lasting though, I don't know.

Keep in mind, while EPO is sometimes detectable, it's actually rare that someone tests positive for it, even when on it. Kohl is the perfect example of this. CERA had markers in it, and even then he (and Ricco) "passed" several tests while on it. This makes EMP's and such a great tool for microdosing.

 

[Cobblestones]

Keep in mind, while EPO is sometimes detectable, it's actually rare that someone tests positive for it, even when on it. Kohl is the perfect example of this. CERA had markers in it, and even then he (and Ricco) "passed" several tests while on it. This makes EMP's and such a great tool for microdosing.

When will this nonsense die? Cera has not, never had, and never will have markers in it. No FDA in the world would approve a drug with 'markers' in it which do not have therapeutical value.

 

[BroDeal]

You don't need to do a full bleed-off (literal draining of blood) to get the hct below 50%. Not only will saline do that, but plasma expanders, PFCEs and HBOCs are most beneficial to doping because they when used with blood doping don't raise the hct much. Same with EMP peptides. BigB says the benefits aren't as long lasting though, I don't know.

Keep in mind, while EPO is sometimes detectable, it's actually rare that someone tests positive for it, even when on it. Kohl is the perfect example of this. CERA had markers in it, and even then he (and Ricco) "passed" several tests while on it. This makes EMP's and such a great tool for microdosing.

I have never been able to find a clear answer about whether transfusing before a stage but after the time the vampires test in the morning is possible. Some info indicates that it might not work because a rider would feel and perform like crap. I have never found anything definitive.

In the 2007 or 2008 Giro (I forget which) the UCI said it would vary the morning testing times and possibly test close to the start of stages. This was an indication that the UCI thought that riders were using the time window as an opportunity to dope in some way. Kohl's statements throw this in doubt.

One of my theories about the doping that was taking place in the later part of the Armstrong era was that the riders were probably riding critical stages with hematocrits in the mid fifties or more by transfusing just for the duration of the stage. The riders were nearly matching the performances before the 50% rules and before the EPO test. It would also explain the boring racing style where riders target just a few stages per Tour to make most of their gains. It would also explain why even after blood doping began in the early 2000s there was still an additional gain in the middle of the decade. Think Armstrong's 2005 prologue and Basso's 2006 Giro mountain stages.

 

[Escarabajo]

When will this nonsense die? Cera has not, never had, and never will have markers in it. No FDA in the world would approve a drug with 'markers' in it which do not have therapeutical value.

Well is the first time I hear this. So how did they catch the CERA dopers in the Tour?

 

[Cobblestones]

Well is the first time I hear this. So how did they catch the CERA dopers in the Tour?

When CERA was developed, the researchers shared characteristics of the molecules with anti doping agencies such that they could get a leg up in developing a test. CERA was at no point modified on request of the testers.

 

[Escarabajo]

When CERA was developed, the researchers shared characteristics of the molecules with anti doping agencies such that they could get a leg up in developing a test. CERA was at no point modified on request of the testers.

Thanks for the Info.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

When will this nonsense die? Cera has not, never had, and never will have markers in it. No FDA in the world would approve a drug with 'markers' in it which do not have therapeutical value.

You are correct Cobbles, the statement I used is a misnomer. The genetic makeup of CERA was not altered in the slightest by Roche. I used a common phrase, and I should stop using it.

One of my theories about the doping that was taking place in the later part of the Armstrong era was that the riders were probably riding critical stages with hematocrits in the mid fifties or more by transfusing just for the duration of the stage. .

Oh, you're not the only one speculating this. It's been said before that if you really want to catch someone blood doping you need to test them around 10pm one night, then again the next morning around 7am, and then test them again after the sign in but before the stage starts. Then you'd get a real accurate profile of someone's HCT if they were doping. However, it would still have to be somewhat of a surprise to make sure the rider wasn't using the right mixture of microdosing, PFCEs and HBOCs and peptides to keep their numbers in reasonable order.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

As I said before, one tactic the UCI or ASO could use is to simply announce the week the Tour starts that at some point during the Tour or just after it, the CO test for hemoglobin mass is planned to be used on several riders; race leaders, stage winners, and random riders.

They don't even have to use the test, just the statement alone would possibly scare quite a few riders out of their shorts and considerably cut into blood doping. After the Tour was over and no testing done, they can simply say they chose not to use it at this time, but will in the future, so be ready.

Growing weary of doping talk here. This is the last doping thread I'll post in before the Tour starts, and I'll only make a few more posts. Hope others will join me.