Tour de France 2020 | Stage 11 (Châtelaillon-Plage - Poitiers, 167.5 km)

Page 17 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
No sprinter is anywhere near his brakes during a sprint, they simply cannot reach them without releasing their hold on the handlebars, because they are gripping the bottom of them.

Trying to reach for your brakes in the middle of a sprint is dangerous.
At those speeds, even sitting up a little and easing off the pedals should be enough of a deceleration to avoid tangling like Sagan did.

I get that there might have appeared to be a gap on vanAert’s inside, but VanAert didn’t change his line and Sagan apparently decided halfway through overtaking that there wasn’t space at the barrier, so he initiated contact. The result of his contact was to move VanAert a foot or so to the left (and to lose a little speed). If VanAert hadn’t been such a good bike handler, that could have been a disaster. If Sagan had eased off instead of dropping the shoulder once it became clear the gap wasn’t there, then he finishes 4th with no penalty.

And yes, obviously riders like Sagan are always going to go for that gap anyway. Because 4th is nowhere yadda yadda yadda. But it must always be clear that there are limits to that. And going for a gap that isn’t there, and pushing riders aside to make that gap, are things that should not be encouraged.
 
At those speeds, even sitting up a little and easing off the pedals should be enough of a deceleration to avoid tangling like Sagan did.

I get that there might have appeared to be a gap on vanAert’s inside, but VanAert didn’t change his line and Sagan apparently decided halfway through overtaking that there wasn’t space at the barrier, so he initiated contact. The result of his contact was to move VanAert a foot or so to the left (and to lose a little speed). If VanAert hadn’t been such a good bike handler, that could have been a disaster. If Sagan had eased off instead of dropping the shoulder once it became clear the gap wasn’t there, then he finishes 4th with no penalty.

And yes, obviously riders like Sagan are always going to go for that gap anyway. Because 4th is nowhere yadda yadda yadda. But it must always be clear that there are limits to that. And going for a gap that isn’t there, and pushing riders aside to make that gap, are things that should not be encouraged.

The guy I replied to advocated braking in a sprint.

As for the rest, it is evident you have never done a sprint :)
 
Not really, here's the gap you can't see:



Btw - cycling isn't basketball - they are allowed to touch each other :cool:
That shouldn't be a gap but has always been a gap in cycling. I'm all for it not being a gap but that is the a bigger gap than Cavendish at Vittel or Ackerman at Lido de Camiore shot for. Difference being that Gaviria and Cort drifted slighty left while Van Aert and Sagan drifted slightly right, and that Van Aert rocked about far more than either Gaviria or Sagan and was the only one who didn't feel the oncoming sprinter coming. Had Sagan not leaned into Wout when Van Aert rocked into hin and had crashed against the barriers instead, it would have been Van Aert who had been relegated. They're not policing decisions but consequences. It's theater of safety stuff.

 
That shouldn't be a gap but has always been a gap in cycling. I'm all for it not being a gap but that is the a bigger gap than Cavendish at Vittel or Ackerman at Lido de Camiore shot for. Difference being that Gaviria and Cort drifted slighty left while Van Aert and Sagan drifted slightly right, and that Van Aert rocked about far more than either Gaviria or Sagan and was the only one who didn't feel the oncoming sprinter coming. Had Sagan not leaned into Wout when Van Aert rocked into hin and had crashed against the barriers instead, it would have been Van Aert who had been relegated. They're not policing decisions but consequences. It's theater of safety stuff.

I have no idea what you mean by it being a gap, that shouldn't be a gap.

It IS a gap.

If Van Aert didn't want to get passed on the right, he should have moved closer to the barrier sooner.

You, and a bunch of other people in this debate, act like riders have all the time in the world to make decisions, when the reality is, that it is all split-second decisions, at 70 kph.

When you see a gap for the line, you ride into the gap, there is no second guessing and no take backs, it all happens too fast.
 
Reactions: d-s3 and thiscocks
I have no idea what you mean by it being a gap, that shouldn't be a gap.

It IS a gap.

If Van Aert didn't want to get passed on the right, he should have moved closer to the barrier sooner.

You, and a bunch of other people in this debate, act like riders have all the time in the world to make decisions, when the reality is, that it is all split-second decisions, at 70 kph.

When you see a gap for the line, you ride into the gap, there is no second guessing and no take backs, it all happens too fast.
I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm saying you should pass new rules against sprinting at the barriers, starting with light punishments while sprinters adapt. Maybe a rugby-style finish line where if you're out of it you're relegated two spots . Because otherwise you going to continue to have a lot grey-area sprints where you're risking the riders and you end up punishing the guy who seems to have gotten the best of it for staying upright instead of anything they could've actually thought to do during the sprint.
 
I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm saying you should pass new rules against sprinting at the barriers, starting with light punishments while sprinters adapt. Maybe a rugby-style finish line where if you're out of it you're relegated two spots . Because otherwise you going to continue to have a lot grey-area sprints where you're risking the riders and you end up punishing the guy who seems to have gotten the best of it for staying upright instead of anything they could've actually thought to do during the sprint.
Such a rule would be impossible to enforce practically.

What should the distance to the barriers be?
How do you measure it?
When do you measure it?

IMO, you would end up with a bunch of people de-classed after every sprint.
 
Such a rule would be impossible to enforce practically.

What should the distance to the barriers be?
How do you measure it?
When do you measure it?

IMO, you would end up with a bunch of people de-classed after every sprint.
1.5m.
You have a guy go out with a measuring tape and some paint.
With an overhead cam at the finish line. If the wheel crosses clearly outside the line you're penalized. You can do fines for the first month, start cranking the penalties up.

I'm just spitballing here, but something like that should work.
 
As Bennett is part of the best classic team in the world and they have no GC aspiration the fight for green is over. They
View: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4vrz1i


This is how you break in a sprint (Groenewegen versus Naesen).

And no; there was no gap for Sagan.
In the above example there was a gap left from Groenewegen.
Are you joking right? Breaking like this in Tour mass sprint would indeed end up with real casualties. :)
 
Sprint is a special discipline and when experienced sprinters do it it usually turns out good, they can handle a bit of contact. In reality you can't always expect all riders will be experienced.

Getting the rest of the peloton out of the way and being persistent in sanctioning, when somebody deviates from the line, or when somebody makes somebody else, to deviate from the line. That is in my opinion balanced and a good approach.
 
1.5m.
You have a guy go out with a measuring tape and some paint.
With an overhead cam at the finish line. If the wheel crosses clearly outside the line you're penalized. You can do fines for the first month, start cranking the penalties up.

I'm just spitballing here, but something like that should work.
But all you create is a more narrow road, which makes everything much more hectic and dangerous. - The riders will do the same thing, but in less space.
If the fear is riders getting injured by the barriers - change the barriers - don't give them even less road to work with.
I never understood the need for metal barriers in the first place.

Add to that the practicality of everyone having to wait around for minutes, before the result can be confirmed, because officials always have to review the last 200 m (or whatever), and relegate a bunch of riders who touched a line.

Another practical matter is, that as far as I know the Tour doesn't actually paint the roads.
I think they use a special reusable tape for the finish line set up, so everything can be peeled off.
They do that because they have to leave the road as they found it, without arbitrary lines on the road that confuse traffic.
I think it will be very difficult to set up 200 meter long lines of tape accurately, and I question how safe the tape is, to have riders on the edge of it at full speed in bunch sprints.
 
Last edited:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAumo11R26s

The video is a good analysis of what happened. Ackermann sprint in Giro with slight contact was ok. Sagan also initially made contact but then used his elbow to shove WVA aggressively which was bad. I think without the elbow he would have won. Instead of straight they went a little bit sideways to the right.
I think lanes are the correct way to go just like athletics or swimming. This way everybody knows what is correct and bring some order to the chaos. There is only so much road and too many sprinters. There are too many crashes in the sprints and to see a Jakobson situation again will drive many fans/sponsors away from the sport. This is supposed to be entertainment not a brawl.
 
Reactions: Walter1234
Apr 1, 2015
63
17
3,710
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAumo11R26s

The video is a good analysis of what happened. Ackermann sprint in Giro with slight contact was ok. Sagan also initially made contact but then used his elbow to shove WVA aggressively which was bad. I think without the elbow he would have won. Instead of straight they went a little bit sideways to the right.
I think lanes are the correct way to go just like athletics or swimming. This way everybody knows what is correct and bring some order to the chaos. There is only so much road and too many sprinters. There are too many crashes in the sprints and to see a Jakobson situation again will drive many fans/sponsors away from the sport. This is supposed to be entertainment not a brawl.
That still image from the vid is pretty much exactly the same as the tdf sprint from Vittel with the roles reversed for sagan. This time Sagan does a better job than Cav did of not crashing (because hes not built like a little girl) and he gets punished for it. Laughable.
 
Reactions: d-s3
That still image from the vid is pretty much exactly the same as the tdf sprint from Vittel with the roles reversed for sagan. This time Sagan does a better job than Cav did of not crashing (because hes not built like a little girl) and he gets punished for it. Laughable.
Mmm; if you take a still of any crash of 2 riders you could argue like that. A still proving something is laughable.
The question is always what is happening before the crash to define if their is somebody guilty of breaking a rule.
In the Sagan Vittel case you see Sagan moving to the right diring his sprint. Up to a jury to see if that is breaking a rule. And that you don't see in a still.
 
Lanes? No way. Then better decide to make every final so hard that there won't be any bunch sprints anymore.
Seriously, lanes are not the way to go. Road cycling is not just about pure power.
Lanes are easy to implement and test. Just apply them in the sprints of lesser races which would provide enough feedback if they are making the sprints safer or not and any other potential impact if any. With lanes it is also easier for a rider to follow in a high speed sprint and easier for a jury to decide if a penalty applys.
 
But all you create is a more narrow road, which makes everything much more hectic and dangerous. - The riders will do the same thing, but in less space.
If the fear is riders getting injured by the barriers - change the barriers - don't give them even less road to work with.
I never understood the need for metal barriers in the first place.

Add to that the practicality of everyone having to wait around for minutes, before the result can be confirmed, because officials always have to review the last 200 m (or whatever), and relegate a bunch of riders who touched a line.

Another practical matter is, that as far as I know the Tour doesn't actually paint the roads.
I think they use a special reusable tape for the finish line set up, so everything can be peeled off.
They do that because they have to leave the road as they found it, without arbitrary lines on the road that confuse traffic.
I think it will be very difficult to set up 200 meter long lines of tape accurately, and I question how safe the tape is, to have riders on the edge of it at full speed in bunch sprints.
You can just tape up the last 20m, like in Rugby. I'm sure there's some tech to do this, it doesn't have to be mm-specific, give it a healthy safety margin. Yeah, they"ll be a few relegations at first, but riders would adjust quickly. Maybe kick off their sprints earlier.

The barriers are there for the spectators. We've seen plenty of incidents with spectators and that's with barriers, I doubt getting rid of them would make it better.
 
You can just tape up the last 20m, like in Rugby. I'm sure there's some tech to do this, it doesn't have to be mm-specific, give it a healthy safety margin. Yeah, they"ll be a few relegations at first, but riders would adjust quickly. Maybe kick off their sprints earlier.

The barriers are there for the spectators. We've seen plenty of incidents with spectators and that's with barriers, I doubt getting rid of them would make it better.
20 meters is far from enough, as the pushing and showing happens all over the place the last 200 meters, and everyone is trying to find a gap to get to the front.

I am not advocating getting rid of barriers, I am advocating changing the shape and material of barriers.

Again, if the barriers are dangerous to the riders, we need to change the barriers - not change the road :)
 
20 meters is far from enough, as the pushing and showing happens all over the place the last 200 meters, and everyone is trying to find a gap to get to the front.

I am not advocating getting rid of barriers, I am advocating changing the shape and material of barriers.

Again, if the barriers are dangerous to the riders, we need to change the barriers - not change the road :)
Maybe they can do like F1 and have a big foam pads as barriers. But even then, if you bounce back into the road it will be pretty dangerous. But I'd definitely be open to ideas.

The basic gist of my idea not changing the road, it's dissuading riders from going for gaps against the barriers. Right now taking the outside line is fair game, and it seems to me it ends in wins, crashes or relegations depending on a lot of variables outside of the control of the rider that's going for it.
 
Lanes are easy to implement and test. Just apply them in the sprints of lesser races which would provide enough feedback if they are making the sprints safer or not and any other potential impact if any. With lanes it is also easier for a rider to follow in a high speed sprint and easier for a jury to decide if a penalty applys.
Okay, I don't want to mock this but really, that is like saying "play football with softballs so there won't be any more concussions."

I'm all for safety, but there are some things inherent to this sport and lanes take these. There must be other solutions.
 
Maybe they can do like F1 and have a big foam pads as barriers. But even then, if you bounce back into the road it will be pretty dangerous. But I'd definitely be open to ideas.

The basic gist of my idea not changing the road, it's dissuading riders from going for gaps against the barriers. Right now taking the outside line is fair game, and it seems to me it ends in wins, crashes or relegations depending on a lot of variables outside of the control of the rider that's going for it.
There will always be dangers lining the road, if it wasn't the barriers, it would be the curbs.

I am totally against the "sprint lines" you suggest, because they can only ever make the road more narrow, which inherently makes the sprint more dangerous.

As for barrier design, the first thing I'd do was make them collapse when hit from the road side.

The second thing I'd do was pad them, as you suggest.

Last, but not least, in these Corona times, there is no need for barriers to be up against the road, they can easily be moved back a couple of meters, which is the first easy fix, with the existing barrier design.
 
That still image from the vid is pretty much exactly the same as the tdf sprint from Vittel with the roles reversed for sagan. This time Sagan does a better job than Cav did of not crashing (because hes not built like a little girl) and he gets punished for it. Laughable.
Or Van Aert could've simply yeeted Sagan into the barrers and instead swerves to the left in order not to crash
 
Mar 26, 2017
219
39
3,080
Lanes are easy to implement and test. Just apply them in the sprints of lesser races which would provide enough feedback if they are making the sprints safer or not and any other potential impact if any. With lanes it is also easier for a rider to follow in a high speed sprint and easier for a jury to decide if a penalty applys.
Maybe we could just measure max power of each rider on a trainer and just award the victory to the one with highest number.
And we could do it just once per race, with the same one "winning" all sprints :rolleyes:

If there's anything to change in sprints it's the buildup where GC guys mix up with sprinters.
That could change so that crashes in sprints do not influence GC.
But the sprint itself is so great exactly because there are no lines and it's not just watts what decides.
There's positioning, bravery (or craziness) to go for gaps, ...

Significant issue here is that WVA mixed up with sprinters.
WVA has great speed but he has neither mindset nor experience of "real" sprinters.
Should there be a sprinter in his position, he we likely notice other sprinter passing by and also would be less scared afterwards.
 
Reactions: Armchaircyclist

ASK THE COMMUNITY