Tour de France Tour de France 2022 route rumors thread.

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Many hard climbs in a stage doesn't mean better enternainment.
Galibier before granon is enough, granon can make big differences.
The best mountain stages to long range attacks, are stages like the stage of stelvio on giro 2020, a hard climb followed by in the end a more easy climb, or mountain stages with enchainments like romme/colombiere, forclaz/finhaut emosson.
 
Many hard climbs in a stage doesn't mean better enternainment.
Galibier before granon is enough, granon can make big differences.
The best mountain stages to long range attacks, are stages like the stage of stelvio on giro 2020, a hard climb followed by in the end a more easy climb, or mountain stages with enchainments like romme/colombiere, forclaz/finhaut emosson.
i don’t disagree as long as the location of the large/tough climb is in close enough proximity to the finishing climbs and not too much valley roads.

stelvio 2020 is as you say a good example also the finestre/sestriere double or mortirolo/aprica
 
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i don’t disagree as long as the location of the large/tough climb is in close enough proximity to the finishing climbs and not too much valley roads.

stelvio 2020 is as you say a good example also the finestre/sestriere double or mortirolo/aprica
Absolutely. Mortirolo/ aprica it's other perfect example.
 
The best mountain stages to long range attacks, are stages like the stage of stelvio on giro 2020, a hard climb followed by in the end a more easy climb
Unfortunately, there aren't too many of these combos in France. You have some good chained climbs like the ones you mention (and Aubisque - Spandelles - Hautacam which hopefully will be used in next year's Tour), but none few or none combos with a massive penulatimate climb followed by an much easier last climb. Italy has a bunch of these. The only one I can think of in France is Pailheres - Plateau de Bonascre.
 
that Stelvio stage was already quite difficult before the Stelvio, so I don't see the problem with having Madeleine before Galibier. Just 80 kilometer of flat at the beginning of the stage isn't making it better neither, as the attackers will be more or less a random group, because of the flat and not a dangerous group of climbers you can't give minutes.
 
Unfortunately, there aren't too many of these combos in France. You have some good chained climbs like the ones you mention (and Aubisque - Spandelles - Hautacam which hopefully will be used in next year's Tour), but none few or none combos with a massive penulatimate climb followed by an much easier last climb. Italy has a bunch of these. The only one I can think of in France is Pailheres - Plateau de Bonascre.
Tourmalet - Gavernie
 
Unfortunately, there aren't too many of these combos in France. You have some good chained climbs like the ones you mention (and Aubisque - Spandelles - Hautacam which hopefully will be used in next year's Tour), but none few or none combos with a massive penulatimate climb followed by an much easier last climb. Italy has a bunch of these. The only one I can think of in France is Pailheres - Plateau de Bonascre.
An Auron MTF after the Bonette from North would be an option, also one in Saint-Veran after the Angello from the Italian side. Super Sauze after Bonette from South would also be an option, but I don't know if that side of the climb is hard enough. You could always fix the Col de la Moutiere road and use that one as a pass before Super Sauze, but that's fantasy cycling territory.
 
An Auron MTF after the Bonette from North would be an option, also one in Saint-Veran after the Angello from the Italian side. Super Sauze after Bonette from South would also be an option, but I don't know if that side of the climb is hard enough. You could always fix the Col de la Moutiere road and use that one as a pass before Super Sauze, but that's fantasy cycling territory.
Alpes-de-Haute-Provence offer plenty of breathtaking combos.
Maybe logistics matter due to the proximity of riviera.
 
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Okay, to somewhat degree, but Tourmalet isn't a climb on par with Mortirolo, Finestre or Stelvio east. And isn't a finish in Gavarnie not likely due to the national park nearby?
Then your problem with the Tour isn't a lack of combos, but a lack of monsters. And Pailhères is certainly no closer to Finestre than Tourmalet is.

I think the most similar combo to that of the Stelvio stage last year is Madeleine - Valmorel. But there are plenty of good option in France too.
 
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An Auron MTF after the Bonette from North would be an option, also one in Saint-Veran after the Angello from the Italian side. Super Sauze after Bonette from South would also be an option, but I don't know if that side of the climb is hard enough. You could always fix the Col de la Moutiere road and use that one as a pass before Super Sauze, but that's fantasy cycling territory.
Yep, a massive Alpes Maritimes stage with Cayolle - Bonette - Auron would be great.

Hadn't thought about Saint-Veran after Agnello. That could be an option, but the last climb for Saint-Veran woudn't be especially long.

It would rather be interesting to see a somewhat different design of the Tour. Start with a couple of medium mountain stages in Massif Central the first week. Then barely touch the Pyrenees by doing for example Pailheres - Bonascre before the first rest day. Continue to the Alps and do Ventoux (or Mont Aigoual) on the way. And finish the last week in the Juras and with a big medium mountain stage in Vosges on the last Friday or Saturday.
 
Then your problem with the Tour isn't a lack of combos, but a lack of monsters. And Pailhères is certainly no closer to Finestre than Tourmalet is.

I think the most similar combo to that of the Stelvio stage last year is Madeleine - Valmorel. But there are plenty of good option in France too.
I would say both. Okay, you don't have anything like Mortirolo, Finestre or Stelvio, but if 15-20 km, 8 % climbs succeeded directly by a 10-15 km, 5 % climb, it could be enough for some massive attacks if the stage was "correctly" placed in the Tour.
 
Yep, a massive Alpes Maritimes stage with Cayolle - Bonette - Auron would be great.

Hadn't thought about Saint-Veran after Agnello. That could be an option, but the last climb for Saint-Veran woudn't be especially long.


It would rather be interesting to see a somewhat different design of the Tour. Start with a couple of medium mountain stages in Massif Central the first week. Then barely touch the Pyrenees by doing for example Pailheres - Bonascre before the first rest day. Continue to the Alps and do Ventoux (or Mont Aigoual) on the way. And finish the last week in the Juras and with a big medium mountain stage in Vosges on the last Friday or Saturday.
I think we've, pretty much, had that last year.
 
Yep, a massive Alpes Maritimes stage with Cayolle - Bonette - Auron would be great.

Hadn't thought about Saint-Veran after Agnello. That could be an option, but the last climb for Saint-Veran woudn't be especially long.

It would rather be interesting to see a somewhat different design of the Tour. Start with a couple of medium mountain stages in Massif Central the first week. Then barely touch the Pyrenees by doing for example Pailheres - Bonascre before the first rest day. Continue to the Alps and do Ventoux (or Mont Aigoual) on the way. And finish the last week in the Juras and with a big medium mountain stage in Vosges on the last Friday or Saturday.
Just pave the way to the observatory above SV at like 2900m smh.

I don't really think France lacks great climbs so much, even if they have less obvious 1-2 combos and all that. Maybe the Pyrenees lacks some but then maybe that's cause they'll only ever use Tourmalet and then finish too far after that.
 
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Then your problem with the Tour isn't a lack of combos, but a lack of monsters. And Pailhères is certainly no closer to Finestre than Tourmalet is.

I think the most similar combo to that of the Stelvio stage last year is Madeleine - Valmorel. But there are plenty of good option in France too.
This. Different geographical features in France to Italy obviously.

TDF doesn't necessarily need to attempt to emulate those famous Giro stages anyway. It's a different GT. Get back to 3 HC stages in the Alps, and 4-6 Cat 1 stages in the Pyrenees, and total length of these stages around 200 kms. And if you have an easier high mountain stage, place it after the hard one.

Doesn't seem like rocket science.
 
Just look at what Iseran did in 2019. If the will is there you can crush that sort of stuff.
I agree, it's not the lack of possibilities, but more the lack of great route design. Enough 7-10% climbs in France that can be raced hard.

You can maybe say the Col de la Loze offers a kind of Stelvio/ Finestre level, but then they decided to use it as a finish instead of a pass.
 
Just look at what Iseran did in 2019. If the will is there you can crush that sort of stuff.
And when they first do that kind of stage, they drop an obvious climb like Mont Cenis.........

I don't really think France lacks great climbs so much, even if they have less obvious 1-2 combos and all that. Maybe the Pyrenees lacks some but then maybe that's cause they'll only ever use Tourmalet and then finish too far after that.
They don't have the same epic climbs like Italy, but I agree that they do have a lot of good climbs. And the problem is mostly how the stages are designed, not that these climbs are never used at all.
 
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I would say both. Okay, you don't have anything like Mortirolo, Finestre or Stelvio, but if 15-20 km, 8 % climbs succeeded directly by a 10-15 km, 5 % climb, it could be enough for some massive attacks if the stage was "correctly" placed in the Tour.
Absolutely, the riders on that type of stages,are almost forced to attack early on the difficult climb, because if they wait for the last easy climb, they will not make differences, and it helps a lot when there is no valley between that mountains.
 
Absolutely, the riders on that type of stages,are almost forced to attack early on the difficult climb, because if they wait for the last easy climb, they will not make differences, and it helps a lot when there is no valley between that mountains.

it's a formula that works really well. Having such stages really helps to force some action indeed. Although I would say it should not become to much a formula. Every year a Mortirolo-Aprica will get a bit predictable as well. So different formats can work as well, without having a monster climb not to far from the finish followed by an easier climb. Most important is having fair possibilities to make ambush early on and avoid stages in which the waiting game is most favorable.
 
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Absolutely, the riders on that type of stages,are almost forced to attack early on the difficult climb, because if they wait for the last easy climb, they will not make differences, and it helps a lot when there is no valley between that mountains.
Exactly. If you want action that is the absolute "safest" way to design a mountain stage. It's of course no guarantee (coincidence also is an important factor, who would have guessed that the two last Formigal stages in the Vuelta would be so action-packed), but I think it's a much larger chance for action in that kind of stage than doing for example a Plateau de Beille or a La Plagne finish, climbs that don't really connect really well to any other climbs.
 
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