Question Tour de France: 2023 Vingegaard vs 2025 Pogacar

[canina82]

For me, it's clear 2025 Pogacar. The TdF ended in the first mountain stage and Vingegaard was never able to put Pogacar on the limit. We could also add that Pogacar won 4 stages while Vingegaard won 1 in 2023 (Pogacar won 2).

 

[Red Rick]

This thread will be interesting...

And by interesting I think I mean it's entirely pointless, uninteresting to the point OP doesn't even want a serious debate, and I'd rather go over Nibali vs Valverde volume 701025: Cocaine fuelled boogaloo again.

 

[SHAD0W93]

What’s with all the winter style threads being posted during the season? At this point there might be more Pogacar themed threads this year than last.

This thread will be interesting...

And by interesting I think I mean it's entirely pointless, uninteresting to the point OP doesn't even want a serious debate, and I'd rather go over Nibali vs Valverde volume 701025: Cocaine fuelled boogaloo again.

In the dead of the night, Valverde wishes he had Nibali’s trophy cabinet.

 

[Red Rick]

In the dead of the night, Valverde wishes he had Nibali’s trophy cabinet.

Now that debate is settled (completely fairly might I add, I'm sorry to tell you @tobydawq ) maybe it's time I start a rant again on how Gilbert's 2011 season is completely overrated.

 

[canina82]

This thread will be interesting...

And by interesting I think I mean it's entirely pointless, uninteresting to the point OP doesn't even want a serious debate, and I'd rather go over Nibali vs Valverde volume 701025: Cocaine fuelled boogaloo again.

Like almost every poll here. What is the point of 2012 Boonen vs 2011 Gilbert. Or Roglic vs Remco.

 

[KoopaCycling]

purely on time difference (not emotion, how the race felt) it's curiously Vingegaard with 7'29''
Biggest gap Pogacar got was 6'17''

Tadej also cracked, Jonas did not crack in a similar fashion.
So Tour to Tour the result is surprising, but it is in Jonas his favour.
He had the more dominant Tour.

 

[Netserk]

other / vino : nibali 2014

 

[Devil's Elbow]

What’s with all the winter style threads being posted during the season? At this point there might be more Pogacar themed threads this year than last.

Pogacar has only done one raceday this season, so a lot of Pogacar fanboys are feeling blueballed due to a lack of d*ckriding opportunities. That's all there is to it.

As to the poll - 2025 Pogacar is more impressive than 2023 Vingegaard because he was undroppable all race, but at the same time 2025 Vingegaard was a less distant second than 2023 Pogacar because he didn't have one offday that automatically put him out of contention.

 

[Blobs]

For me, it's clear 2025 Pogacar. The TdF ended in the first mountain stage and Vingegaard was never able to put Pogacar on the limit. We could also add that Pogacar won 4 stages while Vingegaard won 1 in 2023 (Pogacar won 2).

I actually do think he had him on the limit with his initial attack on Ventoux. Look at Pogacar's face at 2:18:12 in this video. It looks very similar to how it looked on Ventoux in 2021 just before he dropped. Vingegaard couldn't keep the pressure though, and had to settle into a tempo that Pog could follow more comfortably.

View: https://youtu.be/d7PV2FkuYSM?si=B6ELigRk1yrLjIVU&t=8292

 

[canina82]

I actually do think he had him on the limit with his initial attack on Ventoux. Look at Pogacar's face at 2:18:12 in this video. It looks very similar to how it looked on Ventoux in 2021 just before he dropped. Vingegaard couldn't keep the pressure though, and had to settle into a tempo that Pog could follow more comfortably.

View: https://youtu.be/d7PV2FkuYSM?si=B6ELigRk1yrLjIVU&t=8292

I don't think so. He even attacked later.

 

[topcat]

Now that debate is settled (completely fairly might I add, I'm sorry to tell you @tobydawq ) maybe it's time I start a rant again on how Gilbert's 2011 season is completely overrated.

Yes for part (a)
No for part (b)

 

[Red Rick]

I don't think so. He even attacked later.

True, but I also think it's fair to assume that if he could've just countered and drop him and gone for the stage win, he would have. To me they were evenely matched on Ventoux.

 

[topcat]

With disposable threads such as these it's important to go off on tangents constantly so that there's no chance of anyone building a coherent argument. I commend this thread whatever the motive.

 

[canina82]

True, but I also think it's fair to assume that if he could've just countered and drop him and gone for the stage win, he would have. To me they were evenely matched on Ventoux.

I agree but since we are comparing with what happened in the 2023 TdF, I think it's fair to say Vingegaard was in more troubles to follow Pogacar in stages 6, 9, 13, 14. He got dropped in 3 of them (and he was digging deep to not get dropped in stage 14).

 

[Berniece]

Pogacar always seemed stronger than Vingegaard in 2025, but Vingegaard eventually completely destroyed Pogacar in 2023.

 

[KoopaCycling]

Yes

 

[topcat]

I voted for Maurice Garin (1903).

 

[Blobs]

I don't think so. He even attacked later.

Why do you think he made the grimace he always makes right before being dropped then?

 

[canina82]

Pogacar has only done one raceday this season, so a lot of Pogacar fanboys are feeling blueballed due to a lack of d*ckriding opportunities. That's all there is to it.

As to the poll - 2025 Pogacar is more impressive than 2023 Vingegaard because he was undroppable all race, but at the same time 2025 Vingegaard was a less distant second than 2023 Pogacar because he didn't have one offday that automatically put him out of contention.

So your answer is...

 

[canina82]

Why do you think he made the grimace he always makes right before being dropped then?

Suffering. But the grimace you are talking, he also made the day after where he dropped Vingegaard.
I prefer to see what happened next to Vingegaard's attack and Pogacar still made an attack and still sprinted pretty hard.

 

[Blobs]

Suffering. But the grimace you are talking, he also made the day after where he dropped Vingegaard.
I prefer to see what happened next to Vingegaard's attack and Pogacar still made an attack and still sprinted pretty hard.

When he dropped Vingegaard and made that face, he was probably going all out, so he was probably also going all out following Vingegaards attack, which means he was on the limit in that moment.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Pogacar was clearly better than Vingegaard the entire 2025 Tour, whereas that was not the case in 2023. Vingegaard had two more dominant moments in 2023, but it was never clear that he was a level above rather than just taking advantage of Pogacars crash hampered prep. In 2025, it just seemed like Pogacar was clearly better.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

So your answer is...

They are in the same ballpark, but with different components which makes it hard to compare when the sum of said components is similar. So I think they are more or less equal, but you didn't put an option for that.

 

[Red Rick]

The real spin I want to do is to equate 2025 to Thomas' 2018 win where he wins the GC in the first 2 big mountain stages and is afterward limited by attacks in the final 500m, and the only difference being that he won 2 hilly stages.....

 

[KoopaCycling]

Pogacar was clearly better than Vingegaard the entire 2025 Tour, whereas that was not the case in 2023. Vingegaard had two more dominant moments in 2023, but it was never clear that he was a level above rather than just taking advantage of Pogacars crash hampered prep. In 2025, it just seemed like Pogacar was clearly better.

Vingegaard just said he is only now feeling himself after his crash. So taking Tadej injury into acccount and not Jonas his injury seems unfair. Also Pogacar kept pace early on, on what i believe were on shorter climbs that suited him the most at the time. Once the bigger mountains came he fell out of contention.