Tour de France Stage 3 Wanze - Arenberg Porte du Hainaut, 207km

[adbarbosa]

Sorry, but don´t agree with the previous posts. Every rider to have success must have luck...and this applies to a classic, mountain, flat or even time trial stage. I totally agree with this new profile of the TDF. The winner of these kind of events should be the most complete rider, and the addiction of these stages, besides the show that it represents could give chances to other riders. For example in my opinion, if Cancelara was riding for winning the TDF, he could have won on these last 2 days maybe 6/7 minutes...more the time trials winnings...would make people think that in fact he can win a TDF edition. Awesome stage.

 

[Dominar]

Actually I think that putting cobbles in early would have been even worse. If you do that the only way they'd ever matter is if someone has a bad crash and if they do the gaps can be huge (Mayo in 200X for example). Putting them in the end makes for smaller gaps and some exciting racing. I don't think there should be cobbles in GTs, but if they're there they should be near the end - otherwise they're going to be either pointless or way to decisive.

Good points. I guess it's not so much the bad luck/gaps from yesterday that bother me, as it is the fact that there wasn't any real chance for the unlucky riders to regroup and recover from them afterwards. Ah, well. We'll be able to look back in 3 weeks to see how decisive this stage really was.

 

[Dominar]

Sorry, but don´t agree with the previous posts. Every rider to have success must have luck...and this applies to a classic, mountain, flat or even time trial stage. I totally agree with this new profile of the TDF. The winner of these kind of events should be the most complete rider, and the addiction of these stages, besides the show that it represents could give chances to other riders. For example in my opinion, if Cancelara was riding for winning the TDF, he could have won on these last 2 days maybe 6/7 minutes...more the time trials winnings...would make people think that in fact he can win a TDF edition. Awesome stage.

On that theory, why not just have them ride through a cow field or over a mountain trail? Surely that would give "opportunities" to other riders.

Of course, I'm being facetious but, as I see it, there's the normal amount of unpredictable and uncontrollable luck one expects to find in a sporting event (like an errant dog or spectator running out in front of the peleton, a favorable bounce of a ball, a bad call by the referee, weather conditions that favor one team over the other, etc.) and the type of Russian-roulette "luck" this stage represented. While teams had some control over their own chances by riding to the front, tire selection, etc., it's still too random for my tastes.

Let me take it to a ridiculous extreme: what if ALL the GC contenders had crashed out yesterday and some little-known domestique managed to take the MJ with a 10" lead? Does that make the lucky guy a champion?

 

[Ferminal]

BMC is not that bad...

Has it ever stopped people criticising them?

 

[adbarbosa]

It´s ilarious but in fact, it did happen in the day before yesterday…and Chavanel won 3/4 minutes…. For me this is what cycling is all about … What do you thing about Paris-Roubaix? You probably hate it, but I love it…the winner can be lucky but usually is always one of the top riders. Sure I regret the crash of Franck and the delay of Lance, Basso and Sastre...but I believe that when the mountain stages arrive they will have to work even harder and TDF will be even more interesting.

 

[Cerberus]

It´s ilarious but in fact, it did happen in the day before yesterday…and Chavanel won 3/4 minutes…. For me this is what cycling is all about … What do you thing about Paris-Roubaix? You probably hate it, but I love it…the winner can be lucky but usually is always one of the top riders. Sure I regret the crash of Franck and the delay of Lance, Basso and Sastre...but I believe that when the mountain stages arrive they will have to work even harder and TDF will be even more interesting.

Sastre might work harder but frank certainly won't. As for Paris-Roubaix I think it's great, but it's for specialists, and, as I said in another thread, if you're unlucky in Paris-Roubaix you can still win Vlaanders (or could still have won given the sequence). If you're unlucky in one stage of the tour that can be the end of your GC hopes.

 

[Climbing]

Sastre might work harder but frank certainly won't. As for Paris-Roubaix I think it's great, but it's for specialists, and, as I said in another thread, if you're unlucky in Paris-Roubaix you can still win Vlaanders (or could still have won given the sequence). If you're unlucky in one stage of the tour that can be the end of your GC hopes.

This I agree.
Cobblestones is a very specific race, and when it is fantastic to watch Paris-Roubaix, that's a one day race.
But deciding a GC on pavè does not feel right.
Even if the riders and teams knew long ago about the stage and prepared well for it, it's to unpredictable for a GC.
I'm sorry for Frank, and for the riders which lost time, I hope this situation will make them attack!

 

[Dominar]

It´s ilarious but in fact, it did happen in the day before yesterday…and Chavanel won 3/4 minutes…. For me this is what cycling is all about … What do you thing about Paris-Roubaix? You probably hate it, but I love it…the winner can be lucky but usually is always one of the top riders. Sure I regret the crash of Franck and the delay of Lance, Basso and Sastre...but I believe that when the mountain stages arrive they will have to work even harder and TDF will be even more interesting.

I hope you're right, but I think LA, IB and CS are out of it. And yes, it almost did happen on Monday ... and the stage was neutralized because the "luck" that day was deemed unacceptable for some reason.

I love P-R in all its chaotic glory just fine. But, Cerberus said above, it's not a 3-week GT. If you crash out of P-R, you still have opportunities in other Classics. With a GT, you don't.

Hopefully, the stages to come will make all of this a relatively minor point and that the TDF will actually be more interesting because more riders/teams will be forced to attack now.

 

[adbarbosa]

If you crash in a classic and you retire...this means normally you´re out for some weeks and classics period is over...same thing happens in a 3 week race. And only one rider retired after crash...Basso, Sastre, Menchov, Lance and Contador did not crash, right? They were weaker in a specific terrain like this ...and they will be stronger in the mountains...this is how the best GT should be (all round).

 

[Cerberus]

If you crash in a classic and you retire...this means normally you´re out for some weeks and classics period is over...same thing happens in a 3 week race. And only one rider retired after crash...Basso, Sastre, Menchov, Lance and Contador did not crash, right? They were weaker in a specific terrain like this ...and they will be stronger in the mountains...this is how the best GT should be (all round).

If you crash and get seriously hurt yes, if you get caught behind a crash or if you have a non-serious crash (which is the vast majority of all crashes), or a flat you can compete in the very next classic, but your GT GC hopes might be over. Armstrong and Contador both lost time partially due to defects, not sure about the others. Also the initial selection was in due to the crash, though of cause the closer you are to the front the better.

 

[Angliru]

vino could have taken acs bike. they are the same height so probably have the same size bike. Vino would just have to ride harder. But ac was wasting a lot of energy riding that bike and got distanced in the end, so wouldnt it have been better for him to just go on vinokorovs bike and have a far easier ride.

In the shots I saw in the closing km's I don't recall Contador being close enough to Vino to inform him of his dilemma. Contador who seemed to be dangling precariously off the back of their chase group in the final km's, likely felt that he could hang on till the finish, and thus felt no need to risk losing more time by exchanging bikes with Vino. I think he made the correct decision considering he lost only seconds in the end to his own chase group after falling off the back.

 

[scribe]

Still pinching myself about this from yesterday! Awesome stage.

 

[oncehadhair]

Still pinching myself about this from yesterday! Awesome stage.

Fantastic.

Difference between stage 2 and 3 was that the peloton was expectiong the cobbles and had plenty of time to get used to the idea in stage 3. In stage 2 the extraordinarily slippery roads were not part of the deal.

Cobbles were the same for everyone - reinforces the idea that if you want to stay out of trouble ride near the front. Those that did were the winners.

Can't help flats tho' - even so you have to question the rigid rims of rs when a larger tyre and wheels with more give may have been a wiser decision. You make your luck.

 

[Road Hazard]

This goes back to the idea of: why should a specialist climber, a 55kg guy who can fly up mountains but not sprint for his life, always win the tour?

I am rooting for Alberto by the way, but I can see how people might be tired of the entire 3 week tour being a series of transition stages between a few alpine finishes where the tour is decided every time. Why shouldn't a guy like Fabian or Alessandro or an all-around racer like Cadel have a chance to win the overall just because there is one guy who can climb like no one else.?

Edit: At the same time, I can understand how the racers do not want to be made into gladiators who are expected to crash and break bones for the entertainment of the masses. Stages designed to cause "drama" (i.e. crashes) are not cool. I didn't ride the stages so I can't say if that's what 2 and maybe 3 were but if the riders felt that was the point then I can understand their complaints.

 

[cyclingmad]

Fantastic.

Difference between stage 2 and 3 was that the peloton was expectiong the cobbles and had plenty of time to get used to the idea in stage 3. In stage 2 the extraordinarily slippery roads were not part of the deal.

Cobbles were the same for everyone - reinforces the idea that if you want to stay out of trouble ride near the front. Those that did were the winners.

Can't help flats tho' - even so you have to question the rigid rims of rs when a larger tyre and wheels with more give may have been a wiser decision. You make your luck.

Cobbles were the same for everyone but the impact of them was determined more by luck than skill. Frank and Andy Schleck were positioned pretty well the same one was lucky one was not. LA, Contador and Evans were all positioned about the same but luck meant Evans got around the crash. LA and Contador did well to limit losses than LA had a puncture that is luck. Basso was not positioned so well so lost time but Sastre was and ended up having wheels smashed losing time through luck.
Cant agree you can stay out of time being at the front or that it is the same for everyone for these reasons. In a GT as a lot of people have just posted this time has too much impact on the race and is not down to rider skill

 

[Climbing]

Cobbles were the same for everyone but the impact of them was determined more by luck than skill. Frank and Andy Schleck were positioned pretty well the same one was lucky one was not. LA, Contador and Evans were all positioned about the same but luck meant Evans got around the crash. LA and Contador did well to limit losses than LA had a puncture that is luck. Basso was not positioned so well so lost time but Sastre was and ended up having wheels smashed losing time through luck.
Cant agree you can stay out of time being at the front or that it is the same for everyone for these reasons. In a GT as a lot of people have just posted this time has too much impact on the race and is not down to rider skill

Cobbles are too unpredictable to be in a GT.
Basso for example was very well positioned, just after Frank, and when Frank crashed he needed to stop and lost time.
Armstrong flat tire, Contador rear wheel and so on.
There is no skill involved in this, it's just luck for the most part.
Tell me how was possible to avoid crashes when you are going to force 200 racer togheter on cobbles, where many of them aren't specialists.
But indeed watching the stage was entertaining.