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Tour De France: Unchained aka that netflix thingy

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VayaVayaVaya

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
And i hate to tell you that Van Aert was going to win that TT regardless of what Vingegaard wanted or didn't want. If you want to keep discussing this with me, please first make sure you know what you are talking about. Look at the actual stage again. Then look at the split times. And pay attention to the moment Vingegaard was still going all out and nearly crashed in the downhill. Vingegaard started the TT fast and had a gap at T1, and was slower in every next section, losing time to Van Aert. The moment he nearly crashed, he was already 6 seconds behind Van Aert and the split times showed he was even slower on the penultimate climb than Van Aert. So he was losing time ever since T1, he wasn't holding back (or he wouldn't be taking risks downhill), he wasn't climbing faster, and he was already 6s in the red BEFORE he "allowed Van Aert to win".
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So you think that Wout, Vingegaard, and the manager are all incorrect that Vingegaard likely would have won had he gone full gas?

I agree that the splits tell a story, and that story was Wout consistently gained a little bit of time after T1. No argument here.

But the part that Vingegaard soft pedaled was the part that favored him by far the most. And it seems pretty clear that Wout was exhausted and Vingegaard was somehow not.

IMO, at worst, it was 40/60 Vingo/Wout when Vingegaard sat up due to the profile of the remaining road and their relative strengths and freshness. If Vingegaard had no chance , as you argue, then Wout, Vingegaard, and the manager have no idea what they’re doing. All evidence from last years Tour indicates they do in fact know what they’re doing.

FWIW, I am a Wout fan and a Pogacar fan, not a Vingegaard fan, so I’m not trying to hype my favorite rider.
 
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theyoungest

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
And i hate to tell you that Van Aert was going to win that TT regardless of what Vingegaard wanted or didn't want. If you want to keep discussing this with me, please first make sure you know what you are talking about. Look at the actual stage again. Then look at the split times. And pay attention to the moment Vingegaard was still going all out and nearly crashed in the downhill. Vingegaard started the TT fast and had a gap at T1, and was slower in every next section, losing time to Van Aert. The moment he nearly crashed, he was already 6 seconds behind Van Aert and the split times showed he was even slower on the penultimate climb than Van Aert. So he was losing time ever since T1, he wasn't holding back (or he wouldn't be taking risks downhill), he wasn't climbing faster, and he was already 6s in the red BEFORE he "allowed Van Aert to win". Hate to tell you though.
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You keep on repeating this over and over, but it just doesn't prove anything. Rider A is ahead of Rider B on the penultimate time check, hence Rider A is guaranteed to beat Rider B. If he was ahead by a minute, sure. But not by 6 seconds.

Nor is it absolutely certain Vingegaard would have won, had he pushed on. Of course not. Personally I do think so, 19 seconds isn't that much when you take it relatively easy on a climb.
 
Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

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VayaVayaVaya said:
So you think that Wout, Vingegaard, and the manager are all incorrect that Vingegaard likely would have won had he gone full gas?

I agree that the splits tell a story, and that story was Wout consistently gained a little bit of time after T1. No argument here.

But the part that Vingegaard soft pedaled was the part that favored him by far the most. And it seems pretty clear that Wout was exhausted and Vingegaard was somehow not.

IMO, at worst, it was 40/60 Vingo/Wout when Vingegaard sat up due to the profile of the remaining road and their relative strengths and freshness. If Vingegaard had no chance , as you argue, then Wout, Vingegaard, and the manager have no idea what they’re doing. All evidence from last years Tour indicates they do in fact know what they’re doing.

FWIW, I am a Wout fan and a Pogacar fan, not a Vingegaard fan, so I’m not trying to hype my favorite rider.
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The only thing that happened, was that Vingegaard said that in case the stagewin was between him and Wout, that he would not keep pushing. You can interpret that in a way that he didn't want to keep Wout from a stagewin, or that he didn't want to take unnecessary risks with the TDF at stake. Whatever the case, this is just propaganda for the team. I'm sure Van Aert at the time did not know exactly when Vingegaard stopped pushing, or whether or not he was behind or ahead nor knew the exact timesplits per sector. As such it was a nice gesture from Vingegaard and i'm sure Van Aert was grateful for it, but it was not needed as Van Aert would have won the TT on his own merit. At 2.5k from the finish Vingegaard was in fact still taking risks and going full, as he nearly crashed. At 4k from the finish the GPS already had him 6s behind Van Aert. The first sector Vingegaard was faster than Van Aert, the second, third and fourth sectors, Van Aert was faster, including on the penultimate climb. But you are free to believe the fairy tale feel good propaganda about how the magnanimous TDF winner gifted his lowly helper a stagewin.


theyoungest said:
You keep on repeating this over and over, but it just doesn't prove anything. Rider A is ahead of Rider B on the penultimate time check, hence Rider A is guaranteed to beat Rider B. If he was ahead by a minute, sure. But not by 6 seconds.

Nor is it absolutely certain Vingegaard would have won, had he pushed on. Of course not. Personally I do think so, 19 seconds isn't that much when you take it relatively easy on a climb.
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I keep repeating it over and over because people keep spewing nonsense and keep addressing me. What you think in this case really doesn't interest me that much. The facts are there, and since Vingegaard was already slower on the penultimate climb, it is more wishful thinking rather than anything else, to assume he would suddenly again be 6s faster on the final climb, while he was bleeding time ever since starting the TT too fast. Is it impossible, no. But it is highly unlikely.
 
Barnacle Bill

Barnacle Bill

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Even golfers are watching ;)

Men's professional golf has been reflected in the Netflix series Full Swing, but it was the streaming service's cycling version that was more eye catching to Faldo. "I just watched the Tour de France on Netflix," the 65-year-old said.

"My goodness, guys crashing and throwing up and beyond exhaustion. It was pretty compelling. And what did we see? We saw Justin Thomas go down to CVS to get some cough drops.

"I mean come on, seriously," he laughed.
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Netserk

Netserk

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Volderke said:
I'm putting up my WvA fanboy hat for a second:
Yes, Vingegaard had 1.3 seconds at the last time check. From there, it was still 8-9 kms from the finish. Unfortunately, we don't have Strava data from Vingegaard, we only have Pogacar to compare, and he didn't have a very good day. Still, WvA really put the hammer down on that last part (almost all segments KOM), and given the near mishap of Vingegaard in that last descent, he took it easy on the last climb to Rocamadour (a 3:22 effort by WvA). It's probably possible, watching the footage, to analyse where Vingegaard let it go and how much time he conceded soft pedalling, but for me, it wasn't a given that Vingegaard would have won the stage.
What I got from the Netflix documentary, was that the odds were possibly 80/20 for Vingegaard if he pushed on, but they allow the odds go 0/100 in favour of WvA when they knew Pogacar wasn't beating WvA and thus the victory would be in the team anyway. Vingegaard should have won if he kept pushing, but only if he kept pushing very hard.

What I understood from that TT was that WvA was already very, very tired and it was quite the feat to still finish first (or if Vingegaard pushed on, second) after all he did in that Tour. It proved that the Tour is about being as fresh as possible until the end, and Vingegaard obviously was still fresh as a daisy, while WvA was totally worn out, and when he said in interviews lately people shouldn't expect the same in this Tour as in 2022, he clearly realizes that his season was over because of how he rode in that Tour. He still had nice results but he obviously struggled to find peak form.
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I just went over the race footage again, and it's crap. I wanted to compare the last climb (last ~2 km) of Van Aert, Vingegaard and Pogi, but there are no useful segments with shared starting point.

Do you know how fast Pogi did the full climb? We first see him with ~850 m to go.

Pogi does the last ~800 m in 1'29''. Vingegaard in 1'45''. So he would have finished 3'' behind Van Aert if he had kept Pogi's pace there.

Could he have gone faster than Pogi in the last 800 m? Could he have gone faster than what he did before 800 m to go?

OAlfcuR.png


tCwfxMV.png
 
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VayaVayaVaya

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
The only thing that happened, was that Vingegaard said that in case the stagewin was between him and Wout, that he would not keep pushing. You can interpret that in a way that he didn't want to keep Wout from a stagewin, or that he didn't want to take unnecessary risks with the TDF at stake. Whatever the case, this is just propaganda for the team. I'm sure Van Aert at the time did not know exactly when Vingegaard stopped pushing, or whether or not he was behind or ahead nor knew the exact timesplits per sector. As such it was a nice gesture from Vingegaard and i'm sure Van Aert was grateful for it, but it was not needed as Van Aert would have won the TT on his own merit. At 2.5k from the finish Vingegaard was in fact still taking risks and going full, as he nearly crashed. At 4k from the finish the GPS already had him 6s behind Van Aert. The first sector Vingegaard was faster than Van Aert, the second, third and fourth sectors, Van Aert was faster, including on the penultimate climb. But you are free to believe the fairy tale feel good propaganda about how the magnanimous TDF winner gifted his lowly helper a stagewin.



I keep repeating it over and over because people keep spewing nonsense and keep addressing me. What you think in this case really doesn't interest me that much. The facts are there, and since Vingegaard was already slower on the penultimate climb, it is more wishful thinking rather than anything else, to assume he would suddenly again be 6s faster on the final climb, while he was bleeding time ever since starting the TT too fast. Is it impossible, no. But it is highly unlikely.
Click to expand...

Netserk said:
I just went over the race footage again, and it's crap. I wanted to compare the last climb (last ~2 km) of Van Aert, Vingegaard and Pogi, but there are no useful segments with shared starting point.

Do you know how fast Pogi did the full climb? We first see him with ~850 m to go.

Pogi does the last ~800 m in 1'29''. Vingegaard in 1'45''. So he would have finished 3'' behind Van Aert if he had kept Pogi's pace there.

Could he have gone faster than Pogi in the last 800 m? Could he have gone faster than what he did before 800 m to go?

OAlfcuR.png


tCwfxMV.png
Click to expand...
Stop spouting nonsense!
 
Monte Serra

Monte Serra

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The series has been renewed for a second season. So the 2023 Tour will also be covered by Netflix:

www.whats-on-netflix.com

'Tour de France: Unchained' Renewed For Season 2: Coming to Netflix in 2024

One of the many new Netflix sports docu-series to debut in 2023 has been handed a season 2 order. Tour de France: Unchained will return for a second season in 2024. Debuting on Netflix for...
www.whats-on-netflix.com www.whats-on-netflix.com

Would be interesting to know if the same teams will be followed, or that UAE Emirates will also participate.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Funny. So even if he had done the final short climb as fast as Pogacar, after having been losing ground since T1, he still wouldn't have beaten Van Aert. I think this pretty much confirms what i said, no? Or since when is Vingegaard significantly better at short climbs than Pogacar?
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He kept increasing the gap to Pogi until 800 m to go, yes even from T3 to 800 m to go. The last 800 m was less than half of the final climb.

Why shouldn't he have been able to climb faster than Pogi in the ITT also in the end? He did so throughout the course until he sat up.
 
Barnacle Bill

Barnacle Bill

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It seems it will be the same 8 teams, plus some Cavendish focus. Article isn't clear on whether it's UAE not being interested or the producers just wanting to stick to the same teams, although Trek and Jayco wanted to be included but weren't:

www.cyclingnews.com

Mark Cavendish to star in Netflix's Tour de France Unchained season 2

No deal with Pogačar and UAE Team Emirates despite a search for new characters
www.cyclingnews.com www.cyclingnews.com
The eight teams signed up for season two of Tour de France: Unchained are Jumbo-Visma, EF Education-EasyPost, Soudal-QuickStep, Ineos Grenadiers, Groupama-FDJ, Alpecin-Deceuninck, Bora-Hansgrohe and AG2R Citroën.

Cyclingnews understands series producers Quadbox have struck a deal with Mark Cavendish’s Astana Qazaqstan so the second series can capture the emotions of his final Tour de France and as he attempts to better the 34-stage win record he holds with Eddy Merckx.

Cyclingnews understands that Lidl-Trek and Jayco AlUla were keen to be part of the second series but the same teams were again signed up to strike a balance in the peloton.

UAE Team Emirates and Pogačar will not be directly involved but will appear in racing footage as in series one. Quadbox has apparently not ruled out UAE Team Emirates eventually being involved as they focus on the best storytelling of the Tour de France.
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On a more positive note, PL likes his portrayal:
“Some American guests of a sponsor were at the Tour Grand Depart in Bilbao and they recognised me after seeing me on Netflix. They said ‘Ah, you’re the tough guy in the Tour’. That shows there’s been some kind of ‘Netflix effect’,” Lefevere suggested.

“I also went to the premier in Paris with my wife. She never watches cycling on television but she was impressed with what she saw. We have to try to show cycling to new people, who don’t know anything about the sport. That has to be our goal with the Netflix series.

“It’s like the new deal to broadcast race radio conversation on television. They’re paying peanuts at the moment but we’re stupid dreamers and we hope that the little fish will become a big fish, because what they did for Formula 1 was huge.”
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the delgados

the delgados

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yaco said:
It is disappointing that Netflix is not including more teams or different teams in their coverage. Do this and you make a more enriching documentary series..
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I agree, but give it time.
There are a million narratives that can be created when covering le Tour, and there's not enough time to capture and mould a narrative for every team and rider all at once.
Season two will almost certainly include a team (Astana) that was left out the first time.
Get the popcorn ready.
 
the delgados

the delgados

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yaco said:
But teams want to appear in the series - Jayco and Trek have been knocked back in both years.
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What team wouldn't want to appear in the series? If I was a sponsor who was told by team directors that they didn't want to take part, I would question why I'm paying these people.
I'd love to learn the reasons why some teams take a back seat. Sure, there's the narrative aspect where some teams have riders who aren't compelling. But good lord, man, if I'm spending millions of dollars to fund a team, I want it featured.
Edited to add that I would understand if UAE, Bahrain Victorious, and Israel Premier Tech don't care to participate. There's nothing in it for them that they don't already have.
 
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Volderke

Volderke

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the delgados said:
What team wouldn't want to appear in the series? If I was a sponsor who was told by team directors that they didn't want to take part, I would question why I'm paying these people.
I'd love to learn the reasons why some teams take a back seat. Sure, there's the narrative aspect where some teams have riders who aren't compelling. But good lord, man, if I'm spending millions of dollars to fund a team, I want it featured.
Edited to add that I would understand if UAE, Bahrain Victorious, and Israel Premier Tech don't care to participate. There's nothing in it for them that they don't already have.
Click to expand...
AFAIK, UAE declined last year, and probably did so this year. A shame but that’s it.
 
Krzysztof_O

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Rackham said:
A teaser for the second season:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g23hEkoFzOk


@1:30 Grischa Niermann: "if you catch him you will kill him".

He also suggested Jonas will "f*ck everyone"

I mean... some of these riders are married & have children. This isn't right.
Click to expand...

I can't wait to the second season. It should be much more complete with Pogacar's perspective included. Plus, maybe more spicy!
 
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