Tour de Suisse stage 5 Unterterzen - Rettenbachferner 237 km

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

+1 Libertine.
I was going to answer Ilovecycling as well but it is clearly a hot topic that will quickly get derailed into clinic discussion. So I prefer to stay out of it here.

and @Libertine

I dont want anything only a bit clinic to be discussed here. I wanted to discuss his climbing improvement.
Altough I agree with Libertine post, I have a one point which he didnt mention or only briefly.My thought was that he improved not only in punchy climbs or climbs up to 10 km (w/ less percentage) but mainly on long climbs!You can see stable improvement in recent years in this attribute by him.In addition to that he has great form this year as we can see, probably best of his life.Yeah, I was a bit suprised he stayed with Pozzo etc that long but I certainly expected Top 10 result.

The strange thing is that his climbing was abyssmal in Romandie after Paris-Nice, he got dropped on easy climbs and lost minutes in the stages that Albasini won.

 

[SkyTears]

Re: Re:

What a stage!what a beast climb and scenery!Great Pinot ride but I was actually cheering for Denifl , more of these climbs please!


Lol at those clinic references about Thomas, way too pathetic.Its obvious he has improved in recent years climbing wise

Still, there's a difference between climbing well on the likes of the Alto do Malhão and La Redoute, which are steep but short, and you would think within the remit of an all-round classic guy to power over, so if he's improving his climbing from his cobbled focus he should be decent at, and this. Sure, he climbed well in Paris-Nice on Croix de Chaubouret and Col d'Èze, but their gradient is nothing like the Rettenbachferner.

This is the Mortirolo but 800m higher altitude. That's why so many eyebrows are being raised. Because even for a guy whose climbing has been improving, this is such a crazy hard climb that it's still a huge leap in level. I'm not kidding when I say that the Rettenbachferner belongs in the top 10, maybe even top 5 of hardest climbs in top level European cycling. Somebody who powers over the punchy stuff as you might expect from Thomas' build and skillset, you would expect to have run out of it long before the end of a climb where the gradient is sustained to Mur de Huy levels but over six times the length. So no matter how much Thomas has improved his climbing in the last 2-3 years, it's still a real eye-opener to see him lose so little time here.

your bias toward a group of riders is visible from the moon and i find it ridiculous

also i see a lot of doping talk in this forum so i will ask in about the forum if the reported posts are read by anyone

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

What a stage!what a beast climb and scenery!Great Pinot ride but I was actually cheering for Denifl , more of these climbs please!


Lol at those clinic references about Thomas, way too pathetic.Its obvious he has improved in recent years climbing wise

Still, there's a difference between climbing well on the likes of the Alto do Malhão and La Redoute, which are steep but short, and you would think within the remit of an all-round classic guy to power over, so if he's improving his climbing from his cobbled focus he should be decent at, and this. Sure, he climbed well in Paris-Nice on Croix de Chaubouret and Col d'Èze, but their gradient is nothing like the Rettenbachferner.

This is the Mortirolo but 800m higher altitude. That's why so many eyebrows are being raised. Because even for a guy whose climbing has been improving, this is such a crazy hard climb that it's still a huge leap in level. I'm not kidding when I say that the Rettenbachferner belongs in the top 10, maybe even top 5 of hardest climbs in top level European cycling. Somebody who powers over the punchy stuff as you might expect from Thomas' build and skillset, you would expect to have run out of it long before the end of a climb where the gradient is sustained to Mur de Huy levels but over six times the length. So no matter how much Thomas has improved his climbing in the last 2-3 years, it's still a real eye-opener to see him lose so little time here.

your bias toward a group of riders is visible from the moon and i find it ridiculous

also i see a lot of doping talk in this forum so i will ask in about the forum if the reported posts are read by anyone

and who is not biased?
...also you want me,escarabajo or libertine to be banned? lolll

 

[SkyTears]

yes, all 3 of you could do just fine with a small ban, to remind you not to talk crap were you are not allowed

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

The strange thing is that his climbing was abyssmal in Romandie after Paris-Nice, he got dropped on easy climbs and lost minutes in the stages that Albasini won.

So let's compare him to a rider of similar type who, like Thomas in Romandie, is coming back from a break after an active start to the season. Kwiatek stank on the first stages and now seems to be coming into form. It happens all the time.

 

[ILovecycling]

Re:

yes, all 3 of you could do just fine with a small ban, to remind you not to talk crap were you are not allowed

firstly, escarabajo didnt speak clinic at all,so it shows how much you pay attention of our posts ...secondly, yea sure, we are the cancer of this forum

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

+1 Libertine.
I was going to answer Ilovecycling as well but it is clearly a hot topic that will quickly get derailed into clinic discussion. So I prefer to stay out of it here.

and @Libertine

I dont want anything only a bit clinic to be discussed here. I wanted to discuss his climbing improvement.
Altough I agree with Libertine post, I have a one point which he didnt mention or only briefly.My thought was that he improved not only in punchy climbs or climbs up to 10 km (w/ less percentage) but mainly on long climbs!You can see stable improvement in recent years in this attribute by him.In addition to that he has great form this year as we can see, probably best of his life.Yeah, I was a bit suprised he stayed with Pozzo etc that long but I certainly expected Top 10 result.

The thing is, there are long climbs, there are punchy steep climbs, and there are long steep climbs. Thomas has long shown ability to get over short steep climbs, and his ability on longer climbs of lower and mid gradients has stepped up albeit mainly in a domestique role so it isn't necessarily borne out in his results, but on a climb at 2600m with comparable stats to the Mortirolo? That's something much more surprising. Like I said yesterday, if he'd finished with Dumoulin, it would still have been a remarkable performance, but under a minute down on Pinot on a climb over 10% for 12km had me doing a double take.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Re:

+1 Libertine.
I was going to answer Ilovecycling as well but it is clearly a hot topic that will quickly get derailed into clinic discussion. So I prefer to stay out of it here.

and @Libertine

I dont want anything only a bit clinic to be discussed here. I wanted to discuss his climbing improvement.
Altough I agree with Libertine post, I have a one point which he didnt mention or only briefly.My thought was that he improved not only in punchy climbs or climbs up to 10 km (w/ less percentage) but mainly on long climbs!You can see stable improvement in recent years in this attribute by him.In addition to that he has great form this year as we can see, probably best of his life.Yeah, I was a bit suprised he stayed with Pozzo etc that long but I certainly expected Top 10 result.

The thing is, there are long climbs, there are punchy steep climbs, and there are long steep climbs. Thomas has long shown ability to get over short steep climbs, and his ability on longer climbs of lower and mid gradients has stepped up albeit mainly in a domestique role so it isn't necessarily borne out in his results, but on a climb at 2600m with comparable stats to the Mortirolo? That's something much more surprising. Like I said yesterday, if he'd finished with Dumoulin, it would still have been a remarkable performance, but under a minute down on Pinot on a climb over 10% for 12km had me doing a double take.

Assume 10kg lost wt from classics then it becomes plausible, but how is the big question

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

+1 Libertine.
I was going to answer Ilovecycling as well but it is clearly a hot topic that will quickly get derailed into clinic discussion. So I prefer to stay out of it here.

and @Libertine

I dont want anything only a bit clinic to be discussed here. I wanted to discuss his climbing improvement.
Altough I agree with Libertine post, I have a one point which he didnt mention or only briefly.My thought was that he improved not only in punchy climbs or climbs up to 10 km (w/ less percentage) but mainly on long climbs!You can see stable improvement in recent years in this attribute by him.In addition to that he has great form this year as we can see, probably best of his life.Yeah, I was a bit suprised he stayed with Pozzo etc that long but I certainly expected Top 10 result.

The thing is, there are long climbs, there are punchy steep climbs, and there are long steep climbs. Thomas has long shown ability to get over short steep climbs, and his ability on longer climbs of lower and mid gradients has stepped up albeit mainly in a domestique role so it isn't necessarily borne out in his results, but on a climb at 2600m with comparable stats to the Mortirolo? That's something much more surprising. Like I said yesterday, if he'd finished with Dumoulin, it would still have been a remarkable performance, but under a minute down on Pinot on a climb over 10% for 12km had me doing a double take.

Ohh now I see your point ...Another reason why he is digging so deep might be his super-domestiq role at Tour, which is unlikely but possible! And he knows what result Sky super-domestiq could have

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

The thing is, there are long climbs, there are punchy steep climbs, and there are long steep climbs. Thomas has long shown ability to get over short steep climbs, and his ability on longer climbs of lower and mid gradients has stepped up albeit mainly in a domestique role so it isn't necessarily borne out in his results, but on a climb at 2600m with comparable stats to the Mortirolo? That's something much more surprising. Like I said yesterday, if he'd finished with Dumoulin, it would still have been a remarkable performance, but under a minute down on Pinot on a climb over 10% for 12km had me doing a double take.

Exactly. G has never had the freedom to race up such a climb, so although he has clearly developed his climbing over the last couple of years, even after following him for years, I didn't really have a feeling of how he would do on such a steep MTF. My guess was that he would have been at the level Tom D actually climbed at (and Tom D would be not very far behind). So both were somewhat better than I expected, but nothing really eye popping. G looks slim and he always rode in loss limitation mode, rather than "linebacker turns into mountain goat" mode.

G requested to ride this race

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/thomas-goes-into-the-unknown-at-tour-de-suisse

and so obviously specifically trained to peak for it. Pinot said he's not at 100% yet

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/thomas-closes-in-on-pinot-at-tour-de-suisse

and although Pozzo is obviously close to his best, I don't think he's at his peak. Of course I'm hugely biased, but I don't think the result was that strange.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Re:

Was Tom Dumoulin climbing was even more eye opening than G's though?

Lol. Dumoulin just dropped at the foot of the climb and went his own pace the entire climb. He just passed 20 guys who blew themselves up trying to follow. Dumoulin did what, 5,5 w/kg? Hardly astonishing.

 

[staubsauger]

Re: Re:

I mentioned Virenque because Pinot is the most consistent/successful french climber since then, as far as I remember. No need for all that agressive style

Pauline Ferrand-Prévot.

Not a pure climber, but would have won the Giro last year if not for time bonuses and riding (sometimes unfairly) to protect Vos' lead. Won the Emakumeen Bira, women's País Vasco, last year.

It should be forbidden to name her, without adding a photo of that lovely woman!

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

I mentioned Virenque because Pinot is the most consistent/successful french climber since then, as far as I remember. No need for all that agressive style

Pauline Ferrand-Prévot.

Not a pure climber, but would have won the Giro last year if not for time bonuses and riding (sometimes unfairly) to protect Vos' lead. Won the Emakumeen Bira, women's País Vasco, last year.

It should be forbidden to name her, without adding a photo of that lovely woman!

here you go

I has found a better pic but it didnt work

 

[staubsauger]

Re: Re:

I mentioned Virenque because Pinot is the most consistent/successful french climber since then, as far as I remember. No need for all that agressive style

Pauline Ferrand-Prévot.

Not a pure climber, but would have won the Giro last year if not for time bonuses and riding (sometimes unfairly) to protect Vos' lead. Won the Emakumeen Bira, women's País Vasco, last year.

It should be forbidden to name her, without adding a photo of that lovely woman!

here you go

I has found a better pic but it didnt work

I'm in love right now! <3 ^^