Touring / Expedition Rig - Information gathering.

[JackRabbitSlims]

Hi.

I´m in the very early planning stages of building up / buying my first Touring Rig, in fact, right now I´m just gathering information and filtering through it.

I want a go anywhere, do anything bike that will be capable of doing 2 weeks in the Sth Island of NZ, to a RTW world trip. On road (sealed or metal / loose gravel) only.

Comfort, durability and simplicity are they key words here. Budget is not really an issue, although I don´t want to have to spend stupid amounts of $$ for the desired product

If any of you would be kind enough to offer comments, suggestions, opionions etc on the following questions, I would be most appreciative. If you could say why you choose one over the other with an explanation, that would be great....even if you just say, ¨this sucked and broke after 2 weeks¨that would be fine

1) Frame Builder and / or OTS Brand.

2) Frame Material ( TBH, I´m only really looking at Steel here, but open to all suggestions).

3) Fork Material.

4) Wheel Size and Spoke count front and rear.

5) Tyre Manufacturer, Model and Width.

6) Brakes: -
Disc or V-Pull?
If Disc, Hydraulic or Mech (I think Mech is the way to go here, yes?)
If Mech, Avid BB7 or Shimano?

7) Group set or IGH (if i go IGH, it will be Rohloff, If Group Set, Brand and Model?)

8) Chain or Belt Drive if using IGH?

9) Panniers - Brand and Model?

10) Cycle Computer and GPS set up: - I want to record all distances accurately and have a great GPS set up to follow maps and analyse up coming terrain etc. I know old school maps are the way to go, but I like my tech and gadgets

OK, I´m sure I´ll have many more questions as I get on, but lets start with those 10.

Thanks very much in advance if you can help me out with your comments and opinions.
Cheers.

 

[King Boonen]

http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/escapade

This, all day long. Clearance for tyres up to 1.8", relaxed geometry making it comfortable on and off road, bolt through front fork for strength, disc brakes so they'll work in the mud, comfort of steel and you can mount racks and mud guards.

They call it their "life style" bike, I'll be getting one for commuting and taking off into the highlands. Sounds perfect for you.

Personally I'd stick with their standard build but they only do full bikes in the UK and some of Europe, so if I was you I'd just build it up the same, possibly with a different group set if you prefer.

 

[elapid]

Hi.

I´m in the very early planning stages of building up / buying my first Touring Rig, in fact, right now I´m just gathering information and filtering through it.

I want a go anywhere, do anything bike that will be capable of doing 2 weeks in the Sth Island of NZ, to a RTW world trip. On road (sealed or metal / loose gravel) only.

Comfort, durability and simplicity are they key words here. Budget is not really an issue, although I don´t want to have to spend stupid amounts of $$ for the desired product

If any of you would be kind enough to offer comments, suggestions, opionions etc on the following questions, I would be most appreciative. If you could say why you choose one over the other with an explanation, that would be great....even if you just say, ¨this sucked and broke after 2 weeks¨that would be fine

1) Frame Builder and / or OTS Brand.

2) Frame Material ( TBH, I´m only really looking at Steel here, but open to all suggestions).

3) Fork Material.

4) Wheel Size and Spoke count front and rear.

5) Tyre Manufacturer, Model and Width.

6) Brakes: -
Disc or V-Pull?
If Disc, Hydraulic or Mech (I think Mech is the way to go here, yes?)
If Mech, Avid BB7 or Shimano?

7) Group set or IGH (if i go IGH, it will be Rohloff, If Group Set, Brand and Model?)

8) Chain or Belt Drive if using IGH?

9) Panniers - Brand and Model?

10) Cycle Computer and GPS set up: - I want to record all distances accurately and have a great GPS set up to follow maps and analyse up coming terrain etc. I know old school maps are the way to go, but I like my tech and gadgets

OK, I´m sure I´ll have many more questions as I get on, but lets start with those 10.

Thanks very much in advance if you can help me out with your comments and opinions.
Cheers.

I recently bought a Salsa Vaya as an all-round commuter/tourer, but I honestly think the Surly Long Haul Trucker is the best bike if a round-the-world trip is a serious possibility. The reasons for this recommendation - steel frame, fork your choice (but steel again would be preferable), and 26" wheels. The steel frame and universally available 26" wheels means that there is always a fix, even if you are in the back of nowhere Mongolia. This is not true for non-steel frames and 700 wheels.

Brakes are your choice depending on your mechanical ability. Cantilevers are simple, but the Surly Long Haul Trucker is also available in disc versions. Personally, I would recommend a solid groupset (mid level Shimano, Campy or SRAM should be fine), and chain rather than beltdrive because of ease of fixing problems with the drive chain.

You will need bombproof and waterproof panniers. My personal choice are Ortlieb. You will need to balance out front and rear for a stable ride, but also consider a trailer for a round-the-world trip.

For cycle computer with GPS, I don't think you can go past one of the Garmin products. Depends what you want out of the computer, but the newest models are the 810 and 1000. For longer trips you will need a solar-powered battery charger because battery life is about 10-20hrs.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

King Boonen - Thanks for the reply and recommendation. I´ll def take a look at their bikes and build options.

elapid - thanks also. i read your post a few pages back about buying the Salsa and yes, i had a look at their bikes as well.
LHT seems to be a very popular rig and i saw a few of them in the store I used to work in a few years back.
26" wheels seems to be the crowd favorite (I have posted these questiosn on a few forums for maximum exposure). Steel and Alu are also the common theme.
I like the minimal fuss, lack of moving parts on the bike of a IGH (Rohlof) and the belt drive options on these hubs. Would be great to gid rid of shifters, cables, derailuers and a link chain??
Yes, Rohloff is an expensive option and will need servicing from trained mechanics.....but not that often.
I like the idea of Disc Brakes and on a fully loaded rig, I think I would prefer them over a Canti. Yes, Canti is a simple system, and perhaps easier to get parts. Either way, spare pads will have to be carried, a couple of cables is no big deal.....for this reason a Mechanical Disc is where I´m thinking.
Yes, Ortlieb Bags and Steel Tubus racks seem to be very popular as well....any others to consider that you know of....surely Ortlieb have some competiton
Well familiar with Garmin, so will look into their stuff as well.
Would like to run a Dynamo off the front hub to power a light.
I´ve never used a Brooks Saddle....I´ve been on a Fizik Arione for years....considering getting a B17 and breaking it in now.....yes??

What are your thoughts on Santos Bikes out of Holland??
In Particular the TravelMaster 2.6 http://www.santosbikes.com/assortiment/vakantiefietsen

As I said, still in the information filtering stage, so I welcome all your thoughts and comments to continue the conversation.

Thanks once again,Cheers.

 

[King Boonen]

One thing to consider with hydraulic brakes, they really are set and forget. Yes, they are more of a faff when it comes to bleeding them (although it's not that difficult) but the time between bleeds is long.

You also have calipers with two moving pistons on most systems which self-adjust to pad wear and more modulation/initial power as they require much less force to operate. Could well be worth considering as forgetting to adjust the calipers on a long tour could be a bit dangerous.



I've ridden one bike with a Rohloff. Brilliant bit of kit but having the whole weight of the drivechain at the back took some getting used to. This will probably be exacerbated by having heavy loaded panniers back there too. You certainly need to see if you can ride one before you decide.


Out of interest, why not an Alfine 11? It's a helical oil bath system like the Rohloff, so maintenance is no longer a massive pain like it was with the 8, has a very good spread of ratios, although some of the steps are quite large, and comes in at under half the price of a Rohloff. Choose the right chain ring and sprocket and I'm sure it'll work for what you want.


Also, I've assumed you want drop bars. Are flat bars an option?

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

King,
well familiar with Hydraulic brakes...used to run XTR / XT combo on my MTB for years.
Carrying a bleed kit, plus sourcing the correct fluid out the back of beyond could be a nightmare.
Carrying a couple cables and spare pads, IMHO is no big deal for the Mech set up.

Yes, looked at the Alfine and is still in the picture...remembering I am still in the info gathering stage here and nothing is set in stone

I´ll be in Amsterdam in a couple of months and am in the process of teeing up a Rohloff / Belt drive bike to test out for a couple of days to see how it rides / feels.

No to the drop bars, I want a more upright postion on the bike, Flat bars are a consideration, or a set of ¨butterfly¨style trekking bars with many hand positions......again, still narrowing all of this down.

I appreciate your comments and suggestions.
Cheers.

 

[King Boonen]

Good job I asked, the Escapade may not be the best bet with flat/butterfly bars, Roadrat will probably be better:

http://www.cotic.co.uk/product/roadrat


My brother has an Alfine 8 on his with a flat bar, lovely bike.


shimano bleed kits are small, mineral oil isn't hygroscopic, so in terms of carrying the kit and oil I wouldn't think it's a huge issue, but I can understand that large scale failures will be much more problematic!


Good you can test the Rohloff. In reality I think it's the perfect touring set-up if I'm honest, the price makes my eyes water though!

 

[elapid]

Would like to run a Dynamo off the front hub to power a light.

There are some very good lights that are rechargeable. Rather than run a light off a dynamo and suffer the decreased efficiency resulting from the drag, I would recommend a USB rechargeable light that you can recharge with a solar-powered charger (which can also be used to recharge your Garmin, phones, etc).

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

King - yes, i would love to go Hydraulic with the brake set up, but if have to keep reminding myslef to keep this simple and managable. Having to replace a hose and the auxcillary parts in the middle of nowhere would be a real ball-ache!

Yeah, when I see the prices of the Rohloff I freak a bit, but I´m thinking long term...along with rock solid German design and engineering....it´s difficult to look past. Still keeping the Alphine in the picture though.

elapid - thanks for the info, sounds like a much better idea. Would you be able to link some options through to me on a reply post??

I´m currently walking across Spain (El Camino) and have seen loads of Pilgrims with the solar chragers attached to the back of their packs.....any suggestions for a good brand / model for those??

Hey, thanks for all your input...it´s been a huge help so far and I appreciate the effort!
Cheers.

 

[elapid]

I do not have a solar-powered charger, but my friend used one when hiking/climbing in South America and Africa. Because I have no personal experience, I have just included links for the best of 2014 reviews:

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Solar-Charger-Reviews

http://solar-phone-charger-review.toptenreviews.com

Most of the Lezyne lights are rechargeable. They are good for commuting, but I am not sure if you want more out of a light (like a MTB light).

 

[MarkvW]

Hi.

I´m in the very early planning stages of building up / buying my first Touring Rig, in fact, right now I´m just gathering information and filtering through it.

I want a go anywhere, do anything bike that will be capable of doing 2 weeks in the Sth Island of NZ, to a RTW world trip. On road (sealed or metal / loose gravel) only.

Comfort, durability and simplicity are they key words here. Budget is not really an issue, although I don´t want to have to spend stupid amounts of $$ for the desired product

If any of you would be kind enough to offer comments, suggestions, opionions etc on the following questions, I would be most appreciative. If you could say why you choose one over the other with an explanation, that would be great....even if you just say, ¨this sucked and broke after 2 weeks¨that would be fine

1) Frame Builder and / or OTS Brand.

2) Frame Material ( TBH, I´m only really looking at Steel here, but open to all suggestions).

3) Fork Material.

4) Wheel Size and Spoke count front and rear.

5) Tyre Manufacturer, Model and Width.

6) Brakes: -
Disc or V-Pull?
If Disc, Hydraulic or Mech (I think Mech is the way to go here, yes?)
If Mech, Avid BB7 or Shimano?

7) Group set or IGH (if i go IGH, it will be Rohloff, If Group Set, Brand and Model?)

8) Chain or Belt Drive if using IGH?

9) Panniers - Brand and Model?

10) Cycle Computer and GPS set up: - I want to record all distances accurately and have a great GPS set up to follow maps and analyse up coming terrain etc. I know old school maps are the way to go, but I like my tech and gadgets

OK, I´m sure I´ll have many more questions as I get on, but lets start with those 10.

Thanks very much in advance if you can help me out with your comments and opinions.
Cheers.

I recommend maps along with GPS. You can write journals on the backside and they make great memories years later.

34mm tires or bigger will slow you down but will make gravel a lot more pleasant. A folding spare that you've already tested on your local rides is a great thing.

I've got a belt. It is f*cking awesome (and a backup won't weigh much). You don't have to clean and lube your drive train each evening.

I like my BB7s.

Ortlieb panniers don't leak. Get panniers that you can strap drying clothes onto. A mesh bag is useful.

Don't do cotton. Get clothing that dries fast.

If you are camping, figure how you're going to segregate your food so the critters don't get it (and gnaw your bags along the way.

A hydration bag attached to the bike is nicer than a hydration bag attached to your back (unless it is iced!)

If you figure out a good way to keep your GPS batteries juiced, let us know.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

elapid - thanks for the links, great stuff!!

MarkvW - yes, th emore I look into the belt drive option, the move it seems like a good idea. I´m gonna test one out with the Rohloff when I´m in Amsterdam in September.
I have a good collection of travel specific / technical clothing for trekking and cycling so I should be able to combine and get a good set up.

Ortlieb seems like the crowd favorite for sure

What pedal system do you guys use?? I´m thinking either Flat or SPD.
Have used SPD a lot and will look for a more touring specific shoe.

Saddle - I use a Fizik Arione on the road rig and will probably use the same on the Tourer.....I know Brooks is the crwod favorite also, but I have heard / read that they can also be a nightmare on the wrong **** and need to be well broken in. The B17 is the one....yes??

Keeping the GPS batteries juiced.....perhaps off a solar charger or running a Dynamo off the front hub ( which is against what elapid suggested, but may be a compromise??) I´ll work on that one.

Thanks once again for all your help...much appreciated

 

[King Boonen]

I've always used flats for everything, I just find them more comfortable and if you do any trails on it they are preferable for the hike-a-bike sections. Nothing more irritating than a bent spd that won't let you engage a pedal. Currently use 5:10s and gaters if required (I'll be getting some neoprene overshoes for winter). I've got Sam Hill monsters which are basically impacts but more weather resistant and tougher and Freeriders. I'd make sure I had some overshoes that fitted and use the Freeriders for trekking.

If you want to go clipless I'd suggest MTB style shoes and dual use pedals just in case. Something like crank brothers Mallet.

 

[MarkvW]

I've toured on Look Keos about three times. They were completely comfortable, but I had to carry a pair of walking shoes in the panniers. They're quite inconvenient for roadside shopping and checking in at hotels.

I've also toured on recessed SPDs and they're all right. Not quite as comfortable a platform as the larger Keo pedals.

 

[dsut4392]

On the subject of disc brakes, I would take the extremely unlikely chance of major hassle with hydraulics over the certainty of regular minor hassle with cable discs. If you want to have the best chance of universal serviceability, choose a brake that uses DOT fluid rather than mineral oil as this is what's most common in motorbikes. Every mountain biker I know that has had cable discs has ended up replacing them with hydraulic due to poor reliability, poor performance and general hassle of having to stop regularly to adjust pad contact and replace cables due to contamination.
I have only seen one example of hydraulic failure on the trail. This was when I popped a piston out while changing brake pads at the top of a loooong descent - I got distracted chatting and absent-mindedly pumped the brake lever forcing the piston out past its seal (Avid juicy). That was the only time I had to bleed those brakes in 7 years of ownership. Yet despite the number of MTBers on cable discs being much smaller, I have seen failures on 5 occasions. Once was a set of brake pads that wore down to the backing plate on their first ride on a sandy trail in a thunderstorm. A combination of sand grinding away the pad, and sand clogging up the caliper and cable preventing proper retraction was to blame (Avid). A further two incidents of brakes severely dragging due to mud contamination, to the point they had to be jiggled with a multitool after each braking effort (shimano). One example of the caliper arm failing catastrophically (early shimano). One example of a prematurely/excessively worn disc rotor failing (excessive wear because only one pad moves, contact with the other pad being reliant on bending the rotor).

 

[hiero2]

. . .

You will need bombproof and waterproof panniers. My personal choice are Ortlieb. You will need to balance out front and rear for a stable ride, but also consider a trailer for a round-the-world trip.
. . .

Many moons ago I did quite a bit of touring w/ panniers. I thoroughly agree that you should go for bomb proof. A system test ride would be a good thing to make sure you do not get your heels hitting your rear panniers - nor you toes hitting your front fender.

Lot more good choices in the pannier lines today than then. Rigid fastening is a must on long tours.

The only other thing I have to add is a super plus one to the trailer idea. Last time I went pannier camping I swore I never would again - I would trailer instead.

I MIGHT use a Carradice type saddle bag for lightweight touring today, but I will never go back to racks and panniers. Panniers are like backpacks when you do self-contained hiking. A pita to get into and out of. You have to take great care of how things are stored. And you have to be very mindful of size and weight of what you carry. They also have serious impact on bicycle handling.

Btw - I bought a used trailer after that, and used it for commuting sometimes. Overall speed is a little slower, but all-in-all, I thought it was a much better solution. I suggest looking at a single wheel trailer such as the Bob.

 

[winkybiker]

Many moons ago I did quite a bit of touring w/ panniers. I thoroughly agree that you should go for bomb proof. A system test ride would be a good thing to make sure you do not get your heels hitting your rear panniers - nor you toes hitting your front fender.

Lot more good choices in the pannier lines today than then. Rigid fastening is a must on long tours.

The only other thing I have to add is a super plus one to the trailer idea. Last time I went pannier camping I swore I never would again - I would trailer instead.

I MIGHT use a Carradice type saddle bag for lightweight touring today, but I will never go back to racks and panniers. Panniers are like backpacks when you do self-contained hiking. A pita to get into and out of. You have to take great care of how things are stored. And you have to be very mindful of size and weight of what you carry. They also have serious impact on bicycle handling.

Btw - I bought a used trailer after that, and used it for commuting sometimes. Overall speed is a little slower, but all-in-all, I thought it was a much better solution. I suggest looking at a single wheel trailer such as the Bob.

Counterpoint: There is no need for a trailer. A well designed touring bike handles just fine with panniers. You quickly get into a routine and know where everything is. Ortlieb is the "only brand" in my view. Trailers can encourage you to take too much gear. You need a LOT less than you think.

Counterpoint: A chain and derailleur setup is more efficient than a belt and internal gearbox, and easy to keep working. You can buy spares pretty much anywhere. Lube chain every few days (or every day if it is raining). Wipe it off enough to keep it reasonable but it doesn't have to be clean.

Counterpoint: Combined brake-shifters are very reliable and now ubiquitous. Don't over-tighten the clamps on the bars and they will also survive crashes pretty well. I've never had one fail. They are more convenient than bar-ends in terms of shifting.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

dsut4392 - thanks for your input. You seem to be talking about MTB brake application there and I am setting up a Touring / Expedition Rig.
I have XT / XTR on my MTB and well versed on Hydraulic brakes....as above, I'd love to have them, but will probably go with Rim Brakes after chatting with quite a few experienced riders on the matter. If something goes wrong, and you're in the middle of no where, could turn out to be a huge pita ....I'm doing plenty of research to avoid having any PITA moments - thanks again for your comments though.

hiero2 - yes, I'll test ride with full panniers before pulling the trigger for sure
I've just walked across Spain and have seen quite a few touring rigs pulling a trailer.....this interested me as well. One guy had his dog in one
I'm hoping front and rear panniers, well balanced and weighted should do the trick...especially on a specific touring rig with correct geometry.

winkybiker - thanks for your comments.
Yes, Ortlieb seems to be the popular choice...it's pretty much all I've seen in the last month in Spain.
I'm leaning hard towards the IGH and Belt, but will test out in a few months time. Getting rid of all those components and therefore failure potential is appealing.....but I totally agree that spares and repairs on a chain / der system is much more doable than the IGH set up.
I'm counting on the Rohloff not needing any repair or spares...just a service at 5000kms

OK, once again thanks for all your help, comments and suggestions.
Nothing has been decided yet and I am not really looking to kick this tour off until around June 2015, so plenty of time to keep refining this.
Please do keep this conversation going if you can contribute in a positive, helpful way.

Cheers.

 

[hiero2]

. . . If something goes wrong, and you're in the middle of no where, could turn out to be a huge pita ....I'm doing plenty of research to avoid having any PITA moments - thanks again for your comments though.

. . . One guy had his dog in one
. . .
I'm counting on the Rohloff not needing any repair or spares...just a service at 5000kms
. . .

His dog! Love it. I tell ya, sometimes having some company can be a sanity saver! And your dog is likely more loyal and less annoying than some human companions! But with you just having walked across Spain, you have some idea of the solitude, and the affect of it.

Quite some years back there were a couple guys who made a big deal about touring across Africa on bike. They carried spare everything pretty much. Except frames. And perhaps freewheels. Spare spokes, rims, cranksets, . . . It seems its done on a regular basis now, but back then had not been done in decades previously (I'm thinking approx 1980's).

 

[frenchfry]

Counterpoint: There is no need for a trailer. A well designed touring bike handles just fine with panniers. You quickly get into a routine and know where everything is. Ortlieb is the "only brand" in my view. Trailers can encourage you to take too much gear. You need a LOT less than you think.

Counterpoint: A chain and derailleur setup is more efficient than a belt and internal gearbox, and easy to keep working. You can buy spares pretty much anywhere. Lube chain every few days (or every day if it is raining). Wipe it off enough to keep it reasonable but it doesn't have to be clean.

Counterpoint: Combined brake-shifters are very reliable and now ubiquitous. Don't over-tighten the clamps on the bars and they will also survive crashes pretty well. I've never had one fail. They are more convenient than bar-ends in terms of shifting.

I agree with this point. Although front and rear panniers undoubtedly provide better balance the tendancy is to fill them up with unnecessary stuff, most cycling tourists I see appear incredibly overloaded. I have spent over a year of my life on the road with Karrimor canvas rear panniers (purchased about 1970) and never went wanting for more room. I also had a small front rack with my lightweight tent but no more. With this setup I crossed the Alps and many cols with little difficulty.

I now have a trailer for shopping/gardening etc. and I can't imagine cycle touring with a trailer, it has a drag effect that panniers don't.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Thanks for your comments frenchfry.

Yes, i like to travel light and minimal and agree that when you boil it all down, you actually need much less than you originally thought

I did 2 months in the Nepalese Himalaya's earlier this with less than 10kgs in my pack.....and have just walked The Camino with around 7.5kgs. Always surprised when I see others with these huge 75 - 80L packs and I wonder, WTF have they got in their??