Track star to GT hero

[thehog]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Track_Cycling_World_Championships_–_Men's_individual_pursuit

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/olympics/olympic-pursuit.html

I'm interested in the phenomenon of a Track Rider becoming a successful GT cyclist.

It's explained on these forums has a natural and normal progression. "Big engine" etc.

But when I look through the history or 4000m Pursuit riders at World a championships and Olympics I don't see that progression.

The only names that stand out are Wiggins, McGee and to a lesser extent O'Grady.

Doesn't look a natural or normal progression at all. It actually looks like a "off the charts" phenomena.

It's unexplainable.

With only the teams pursuit remaining at the Olympics we might not be able to track the occurrence for the future but based on past history it's certainly a strange and odd occurrence.

I do note Bombridge on the list but he has yet to prove himself over anything else other than a prologue.

O'Grady was never a climber and his Paris-Roubiax win is very suspect. Even with doping even he couldn't climb let alone ITT (Cofidis/Gaumont/Riis/CSC).

In my mind Wiggins progression from track to GT winner is nothing short of extraordinary.

I don't know track that well so forgive me if they're are other names which have performed similar feats.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Hog, you very well know Wiggo has a Vo2MAX of 132 so there is the explanation.

 

[simo1733]

Fausto Coppi,Francesco Moser,Evgeny Berzin off the top of my head.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Tommy Simpson was a individual pursuit 4000m rider and won a Commonwealth Games Silver medal,also a Bronze medal in the team pursuit in the 56 Olympics.

 

[thehog]

Anyone in the last 40 years?

Moser, yes. Agreed. Blood doper though. One of the first to blood dope mind you.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Geraint Thomas...another Sky boy.

 

[thehog]

Geraint Thomas...another Sky boy.

Yet to climb. But agree they'll morph him into a marginal gain.

 

[simo1733]

Anyone in the last 40 years?

Moser, yes. Agreed. Blood doper though. One of the first to blood dope mind you.

Evgeny Berzin,Why ignore him just because it doesn't suit your argument.

 

[andy1234]

Previous to 1986, an American had never won the TDF.

Doesn't look a natural or normal progression at all. It actually looks like a "off the charts" phenomena.

It's unexplainable.

 

[thehog]

Evgeny Berzin,Why ignore him just because it doesn't suit your argument.

I'm not. I don't know anything about his track history. Tell me about it so it can be considered.

Did he ever win the Tour? What era did he ride in? who was his Doctor of choice when he won the Giro?

I think it suits my argument very well! I mean Gewiss!!! Who's team Doctor was Ferrari.

Who also left the sport in bizarre circumstances.

Read about Gewiss, Berzin and Ferrai at the '94 at Fleche-Wallonne and LBL.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=4869

Followed by the infamous Ferrari comment:

Sure-enough, the headlines weren't long in coming; 'Gewiss sideline Ferrari', the sound-bite from the good doctor - who was retained by Gewiss - that did it, was; "EPO is not dangerous, and that with regard to doping, anything that is not outlawed is consequently permitted."

Argentin's long and illustrious career ended that year. Berzin went on to win the 1994 Giro, but cycling history bible, 'Gotha' sums-up his career best; 'Disappeared as fast from the international scene as he appeared on it' - quite.

Are you sure you want to have Berzin in there?

 

[Cycle Chic]

Joachim and Vickers must be down the pub....cant wait for them to see this one

 

[thehog]

Previous to 1986, an American had never won the TDF.

Doesn't look a natural or normal progression at all. It actually looks like a "off the charts" phenomena.

It's unexplainable.

How many Americans competed in the Tour from 1901 to 1983? That might explain your theorem.

If they were in the race earlier that might have won before '86.

I'm not arguing it either way. I'm just genuinely interested how track riders become GT riders.

That's all.

 

[xcleigh]

I just don't think that it has traditionally been seen as a necessary 'stepping stone' to a road career, GT or otherwise, certainly not in Mainland Europe (the UK scene with it's historical ban on road racing is different. Even before Boardman's Olympic success track riding was not particularly significant either). The cross over between disciplines has tended to be minimal. Nothing to do with any physical shortcomings of a track rider, just a step that wasn't required if one wanted to become a successful road rider in traditional cycling nations.

 

[simo1733]

Prior to Riis, a bald Danish bloke had never!
Prior to Fignon a guy with a pony tail and glasses had never!
Prior to Evans an ex Mountain biker had never!
Prior to Roche an Irishman had never!
Prior to Hinault a badger had never!

 

[thehog]

Prior to Riis, a bald Danish bloke had never!
Prior to Fignon a guy with a pony tail and glasses had never!
Prior to Evans an ex Mountain biker had never!
Prior to Roche an Irishman had never!
Prior to Hinault a badger had never!

Interesting. But this is the track rider to GT (Tour) winner thread.

Being bald is not in question. Neither is having a pony tail.

Stick to the point.

Like Berzin. He was a track rider but used EPO and blood doping to win the Giro.

Appears to me any rider who rode track and became a GT rider was a doper.

To me the numbers don't stack.

 

[simo1733]

I'm not. I don't know anything about his track history. Tell me about it so it can be considered.

Did he ever win the Tour? What era did he ride in? who was his Doctor of choice when he won the Giro?

I think it suits my argument very well! I mean Gewiss!!! Who's team Doctor was Ferrari.

Who also left the sport in bizarre circumstances.

Read about Gewiss, Berzin and Ferrai at the '94 at Fleche-Wallonne and LBL.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=4869

Followed by the infamous Ferrari comment:



Are you sure you want to have Berzin in there?

If you are looking for tour winners who have no rumours of doping against them then I guess i'm out.
For info Berzin was world amateur pursuit champion, he then went on to win the Giro at the age of 23 or 24.
He was actually leading the Tour de France untill Bjarne Riis exploded onto scene.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I'm just genuinely interested how track riders become GT riders.

That's all.

They don't. The other way around is more likely to happen.

Guess Rudi Altig is the only one before sir Brad, a real one off. 4k pursuiters are most commenly more than okay time triallers, sometimes they learn how to climb.

 

[ultimobici]

I just don't think that it has traditionally been seen as a necessary 'stepping stone' to a road career, GT or otherwise, certainly not in Mainland Europe (the UK scene with it's historical ban on road racing is different. Even before Boardman's Olympic success track riding was not particularly significant either). The cross over between disciplines has tended to be minimal. Nothing to do with any physical shortcomings of a track rider, just a step that wasn't required if one wanted to become a successful road rider in traditional cycling nations.

So Boardman was the first World-class track is from Britain? Reg Harris, Hugh Porter, Tony Doyle & Colin Sturgess never existed? Nor their 11 world track titles, 7 of which were in the individual pursuit?

Over a 25 year period British riders won almost a third if the pursuit golds before Boardman's 1992 win

 

[thehog]

If you are looking for tour winners who have no rumours of doping against them then I guess i'm out.
For info Berzin was world amateur pursuit champion, he then went on to win the Giro at the age of 23 or 24.
He was actually leading the Tour de France untill Bjarne Riis exploded onto scene.

Cold War Russian Pursuit rider goes to mainland Europe and transforms into GT rider.

Berzin was an excellent Pursuit rider. But was transformed by the Ferrari experiment. Nothing else.

Looked good on a bike mind you. Very steady. But was never a climber until Ferrari and Gewiss hired him.

I'd say a good chance that Berzin was doping in the USSR/Russian Federation and took it to new levels with Ferrari then dropped out of the sport due to the mammoth drug use and risks that riders were expected to take.

He's not a good example of pursuit rider turned into GT champion.

In my mind it doesn't happen and can't happen unless like in Berzin's case you add in enhancements.

More to the point you cannot say a GT winner won because they had a big engine on the track. It doesn't translate.

 

[andy1234]

How many Americans competed in the Tour from 1901 to 1983? That might explain your theorem.

If they were in the race earlier that might have won before '86.

I'm not arguing it either way. I'm just genuinely interested how track riders become GT riders.

That's all.

Don't lie.
You're not genuinely interested in anything

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Lets wait and see what Taylor will do in the coming years. On the other hand, he does have a nice gene pool.

 

[thehog]

I actually took the time to read up and research (provided links) to what I always found a head scratcher.

It was being presented that a track rider becoming a GT Winner was to be expected due to "huge engine' etc.

When I looked at the history what I discovered was it simply wasn't true. Its never occurred before.

In fact this is a first time phenomenon. Now if the trend continues over the next few years I could be shown up. But I doubt it. Since post war cycling there's never been one rider who's remotely done well on the track to then become a climber and win a GT. None. Not even close.

I think its interesting. The data says its not possible.

Its like the Tour being won clean in 2012. What event occurred over the last 20 years of data to suggest that its changed.

In 2012 you have a track rider going against the data set on track to GT and you have a supposedly a clean winner going against the data set of 20 years.

That's too many coincidences for my liking. Don't buy it.

What changed to allow these two phenomenons to occur in sequence? I need to do my math but thats like a 1 in 234,568,67 chance of happening!

 

[thehog]

Lets wait and see what Taylor will do in the coming years. On the other hand, he does have a nice gene pool.

This I agree with. He is already a good ITT'er. Can't climb (yet) but is not hopeless at climbing.

I think he's more one day rider but we'll see. He openly states that he won't win a GT. But you never know.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This I agree with. He is already a good ITT'er. Can't climb (yet) but is not hopeless at climbing.

I think he's more one day rider but we'll see. He openly states that he won't win a GT. But you never know.

He is skinny, thin ankles [=climbing proneness], bit like Zulle, with the right training he can learn to climb to a level where he can kill everyone off in the time trials. Otherwise, a great Paris Roubaix winner for the future.

 

[simo1733]

Any future British GT contender will almost certainly be an ex track rider.Likewise any Australian.This wasn't always the case.