Training time versus intensity

[iliveonnitro]

Because I didn't want the stage racing thread to be hijacked, I decided to start a new topic. I am from the US, and will ask all of you where you are from before you post your input.

In another thread, this conversation started:

10 hours a week of super hard training is way more effective than 30 hours a week JRA (just riding around.)

Says who? What makes you think so?

I for one would absolutely agree with that, and in fact 4 hours of specific threshold work weekly will do much more than 25+ hours weekly believe me. If you don't then try it for a while and see how you improve.

Also don't think for a minute that training for "only" 4-10 weekly is easy peasy because if done right it certainly is not and many can not handle it, stick with it though and the benefits will come big time.

Now, I believe a few things on this subject, but will mostly keep them to myself until this thread develops. To me, "Just Riding Around" is synonymous with "No Structure." Thus, a recovery ride, a tempo, a long-steady-distance (LSD), small group rides, and large group rides all fall into this category of no-structure, JRA.

How is 4-10hrs/wk of structured intensity better than 25+ hours of JRA? JRA involves some intensity (albeit, sometimes inconsistent), it builds base, and can even have enough speedwork to make you race condition. Is everyone forgetting about periodization and building a big base and a high peak? Don't forget to mention where you are from, as this does make a difference in training philosophy.

 

[nightfend]

It depends. If you have already built up your base endurance from early on in the season, then you can back off on the mileage and focus on intensity.

The problem with shorter high intensity training is that it is easy to overtrain as people tend not to get enough recovery days.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Sydney, Australia but I think you know.....

I consider up to 10 hrs a week no matter the structure to be somewhat different in overall load to 25 hrs of JRA, which I would expect includes some pretty decent efforts amongst it. So if you are capable of the 25hrs, then sure it'll provide a much higher training stimulus overall.

But is it the most efficient/effective use of time? I think it gets much more interesting when you start talking about 15 hours of well structured training per week. Now you're talking about a sweet spot.

but it'll also depend on what you are training for. If it's long multi stage tours over 7-10 days or more, then at some stage you'll need to know you can handle the time in saddle.

 

[davidg]

Thus, a recovery ride, a tempo, a long-steady-distance (LSD), small group rides, and large group rides all fall into this category of no-structure, JRA.

I dont agree. Recovery rides (done properly), tempo and LSD all have their place in a structured program. Whether they are done in a small group or large group, is irrelevant as long as it is consistent with the purpose. High intensity is generally best done solo, but recovery rides and LSD can certainly be done in groups.

If you look at the breakdown on training zones by someone like Coggan (or RST), they describe the benefit of each.

Of course, to really get the maximum benefit out of the time you have, it all becomes a balancing act and at some point you have to put some real efforts in.

The problem with JRA is just that. You may be riding at a pace consistent with Recovery, Tempo, or LSD, but if it is not part of a structure it is....JRA

 

[Vegan Dave]

I agree that JRA is pretty random..however one important factor, already mentioned, is what the rider already has in their legs, and this detail is essential for this conversation.

I think a brand-new rider might get along well with JRA, as they develop their riding, building muscle, mitochondria, cardio, etc.. After riding for a few years, definitely more can be gained from specific programs than JRA. Unless you just want to win the JRA World Championships.

 

[iliveonnitro]

I agree that JRA is pretty random..however one important factor, already mentioned, is what the rider already has in their legs, and this detail is essential for this conversation.

I think a brand-new rider might get along well with JRA, as they develop their riding, building muscle, mitochondria, cardio, etc.. After riding for a few years, definitely more can be gained from specific programs than JRA. Unless you just want to win the JRA World Championships.

Many week-long training camps, where riders will put in 30hrs, are typically "JRA" rides. They are extremely variable, and only when the season is more developed will structure be put in place. I think a lot of people forget that JRA doesn't mean easy, but rather unplanned. A 30hr week with a bunch of friends/training buddies is JRA. Throw in a mountain pass every day and it's still JRA, but it gets tough.

I do not think you can be a successful pro at 10hrs/wk of targeted hard rides. You may be able to hang into the pro field. But, then again, you only need 70-80% of the power that the winner is producing in order to hang in the pack.

 

[Sheltowee]

Do any of you do any work with weights during season? It's midseason for me and I've been working out some just for a change-up and the fact that I feel I need stregth right now.. I feel pretty good after two workouts a week of light weight work doing the Olympic lifts and variations thereof. I'm putting in about a 100 miles a week during this lull before I start to rebuild for August/September and the season's finish.

 

[BroDeal]

Do any of you do any work with weights during season? It's midseason for me and I've been working out some just for a change-up and the fact that I feel I need stregth right now.. I feel pretty good after two workouts a week of light weight work doing the Olympic lifts and variations thereof. I'm putting in about a 100 miles a week during this lull before I start to rebuild for August/September and the season's finish.

I like to use dumbbells to work my upper body. No power lifting or anything. I don't know if it helps performance or anything, but I feel a lot more toned and in better shape when I do light weight workouts.

 

[egtalbot]

I have no strong opinion on the relative merits of longer and less intensity and shorter and more intensity - I certainly don't have enough knowledge to say. I can share my own experience.

I biked a bit and did a few races at age 14 and 15, but then at 15 I discovered I was better at running. For 15 years I trained runing 50-60 mpw with a lot of racing and several hard days a week - any time I ran more, I tended to get hurt. I managed to get down to the low 15's for 5K. From age 30-35, I didn't run much, instead focusing on race walking 50K (you want to talk about a hard event, the elites have their HR at 85-88% with no break for almost four hours).

At 36, I basically stopped training for a year. A little running here and there. By the end of the year, I could run maybe 18:00 at best for 5K and had gained ten pounds (from 150-160 at 5'9). At 37 I started biking and did a few time trials. I wasn't interested in training for hours a day, so I basically rode 5 days a week around an hour. I didn't ride with a group. One day was all out - either in a time trial or just in training, and three of the other four days were pretty hard - say 2-3 miles an hour slower than my time trial pace for the whole ride, or sometimes with repeated 1-3 minute pickups and a slower average time.

I didn't lose any weight from this 5 hours a week and my 5K running shape remained around the same. My best TT in the second year of this was 13 miles at 25 miles an hour.

Now, there are a lot of variables. Obviously I could have raced faster if I'd ridden more miles. Even if I'd had a base before doing my 5 hours per week, I probably would have gone faster. And I should note that while in running, my race-end sprint is one of my strongest aspects, I can't sprint to save my life in cycling. The type of training I do undoubtedly contributes to that.

But I feel like an 18:00 5K runner (almost 30% slower than the world record) doing 25mph for a TT is pretty much what you'd expect. My abbreviated but faster training didn't maximize my performance, but I suspect it got a lot closer than one might guess. If I ever get motivated to triple the mileage, maybe I'll get a better sense