Tri Bike Handling Skills

[sometriguy]

Hey all,

I've only been riding for a few years and I am near the coast and it is pancake flat here. My idea of a thrill is throwing on the 808s on a windy day.

Anyhow, I got a TT bike about a year ago and have limited experience on hilly terrain. Typically when I have gone to the mountains or big hills I have ridden my road bike.

I did a half Ironman a couple of months ago on rolling hills and I got owned on the down hills. I got quit nervous anytime I started to tickle 35+. Really, as long as I could pedal I felt stable, but I had trouble with nerves going fast while not pedaling.

I've got an ironman coming up in a couple of months that will be on similar terrain.

I'm sure I sound like a sissy, but does anyone have any tips for riding fast down hill. I'm sure most of my problem is simply nerves.

Also what position to you typically descend in if there aren't sharp turns, do you stay aero?

Thanks!

 

[amp300]

I just did a tri this weekend, that had a drop of 350 feet in a distance of two miles. I stayed in the aero bars and really focused on keeping my head still and hands on the very ends of the bars with my knees tucked in next to the top tube. On a TT/Tri bike, I would think it be very counter-productive to not be in the seat with your arms on the aero bars on a fast downhill. My TT bike does not feel very stable when I am not in the saddle going downhill.
I always liked going downhill, so I can't recommend any thing I did to get to the point where i was going 45 mph down a hill and fine, I just always was. If anything, I would try to find any type of gradual downhill and work up to it, or maybe plan a day trip and drive somewhere that has hills and work into it. It is nerves, but if you can get it out of the way one time and go fast, it will come more and more natural. Good luck

 

[Psalmon]

Descending

If you don't know the road like a local route, best to:

1. Stay in the drops or wings of the handlebars - more stability and better brake access (aero position is terribly unforgiving at high speed on a rough or unknown road)
2. Maintain a firm (not a death) grip - bumps at high speed can dislodge careless hands (see Jens Voigt's crash today in Tour)
3. Get your weight on your feet, use your legs for shocks, bent - on right turns left foot down with the weight, left turns right foot down (best counter moment position, less chance of sliding out)
4. Position yourself a bit more rearward on the saddle (what weight's not on your feet) - use your arms slightly bent as shocks forward if you hit a bump or something (this way also you can't bury the front wheel on a bump or get pitched forward with no leeway a bit a la mountain biking)
5. Gear up so on less steep sections you can settle in and peddle without changing position - keeps the legs working and fresh, not so tight at the bottom (Danilo Deluca had this problem in the Giro years back off the Finestre - legs got all locked up and cramped)
6. Work on lines through curves, start outside, cut the apex and work back outside (stay in your lane - you're not in the Tour and the road is open, that said, if you're doing the speed limit, you have a reasonable right to the road with no responsibility to go in the ditch)
7. Maintain spatial awareness (head on swivel, but only move your head, small movements don't jerk your hands with it) so if you need to adjust your line/position on the road you don't veer into someone else. Adjust line using small movements in advance not quick jerks, small weight shifts over the bike not big steering motions.
8. If you brake, first know consciously which is front and rear, and apply easily, don't grab a handful of rear brake in a panic (see Stage 9 Tour 2003, Beloki). Front is most effective, even lightly applied. Also try not to brake in a turn, if you're committed, best to ride through it and trust your tires, etc. Braking in turn will more likely cause you trouble than save you.

Practice descending so you float on the peddles and the bike moves underneath you fluidly. As you get comfortable you'll find the speed comes up and you are focused on the tasks, not imminent catastrophe. Over time you also may want to pick up some hopping skills so you can clear things you can't veer around (like RR tracks - on your own on that one).

Also bear in mind you will rarely win the Tri on the descent, so no risks are necessary. However, you will lose time if you have a large climb or grind following a descent, and you fail to keep the legs loose and fresh (spin in the big gear, shake the legs out when freewheeling).

Best of luck

 

[egtalbot]

Hmm, here's a question for you - are you sure you got killed on the downhills because you didn't feel comfortable going over 35? For the past couple years I rode my TT bike almost exclusively and did quite a few hilly time trials. So I feel very comfortable on the bike. But still I found myself getting destroyed on the downhills. On more than one occasion, a guy starting 30 seconds behind me caught me on a downhill halfway through a 20K, put ten seconds on me, and then I actually passed him on the next uphill. And I never left the aerobars, so it wasn't a case of the hills being so steep that pure climbing skills became a factor.

I came to realize that my main problem was the transition into a downhill. I'd crest the uphill having gone hard enough that I simply didn't have the legs to hammer up to speed quickly on the ensuing downhill. And once you lose the time on the transition, you can literally never get it back. It's the same concept as the fact that you can sprint a lot faster out of a pack going 35 than you can by yourself off a slower pace.

So I would say focus on the very beginning of the downhill and make sure you come into them not totally dead from just having gone uphill.

Regarding your sense of not feeling comfortable, I guess I'd say this. I am not a good bike-handler myself. Not good on technical descents, not good on the mountain bike. But on a good road surface, I have no problem hitting 40 in the aerobars feeling totally stable, with a trispoke on the back and Zipp 404 on the front. I think it's possible that something about your setup makes you less stable if you're felling shaky at 35 on a flat, straight road - possibly go into a bike shop and inquire about that very thing. Of course, maybe it's just the 808 on the front - I found the difference in handling between the 404 and the 808 on a downhill to be very noticeable.

Finally, someone mentioned that you'd want to get in the aerobars on a big downhill. I will respectfully disagree. Through a variety of trial and error, I've found something closer to an aggressive road tuck to be more aerodynamic than the aeros. You can't generate any power, but of course that's irrelevant if you're not pedaling. I should note that if you have a really aggressive Zabriskie-like position in the aeros, you might seen different results.

good luck!

 

[Max Cadence]

Watch this youtube video for the final word on Tri bike handling skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2oQUC_5fw0

Keep in mind, The Ras is a world champion mountain bike racer. He's got skills. Tri bikes are just ornery beasts. Time spent is the only way to progress.

 

[BroDeal]

Practice. If it is just mental then I don't think there is any other solution than to descend enough that you feel comfortable. 35 mph is not fast at all for a descent.

I would not use 808s on a windy descent with corners, though. I think I would also be pretty careful about staying on the aero bars while doing any kind of serious descent.

One trick I am fond of is to grip the top tube with my knees, which gets rid of any shimmy and generally makes me feel more stable. This does not work that well with a compact frame.

 

[runninboy]

Hey all,

I've only been riding for a few years and I am near the coast and it is pancake flat here. My idea of a thrill is throwing on the 808s on a windy day.

Anyhow, I got a TT bike about a year ago and have limited experience on hilly terrain. Typically when I have gone to the mountains or big hills I have ridden my road bike.

I did a half Ironman a couple of months ago on rolling hills and I got owned on the down hills. I got quit nervous anytime I started to tickle 35+. Really, as long as I could pedal I felt stable, but I had trouble with nerves going fast while not pedaling.



Thanks!

I had a fork come apart on me on a downhill and for years i was understandbly nervous, so i am not exactly a thrill seeker and i am not very confortable on a tt bike.

However, 35 mph is not very fast on a road bike. By spinning smoothly i can hit 40mph on anything considered downhill.
My advice to you until you feel more comfortable going fast on your tt bike, is work on your spinning downhill on your road bike.
Then use a set of clip ons on your road bike, you will not feel as fast because due to the slacker seatube angle your weight will be farther back than on your tt bike. Eventually you should feel more stable on your tt bike going downhill. Until then on a rolling course just race your road bike w clip ons. With your zipp wheels you will be pretty aero.


and by the way if you learn to spin properly you will not freewheel until you get above 50mph. I used to descend above 50 still pedaling in a 53x12, I am sure you could do it in a 53x11, but not on a tt bike

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

When I used to ride ITT's with aero bars, I'd ride in the drops during descents. The hardest part of getting into a low tuck then is merely pedaling, which you won't have to do much of.

If there's one thing I'm still good at some 20 years after racing, it's still descending. I've gone over 60mph a few times, and love, love, love bombing descents.

I agree with some of the other advice, but I can give you two more things to practice:

1. Find a long non-technical downhill on a road with no traffic. Try to get the bike up to at least above 30mph. When descending it, carve big "S" back and forth across the road, all of it if you can, using your hips more than anything. You should feel what seems like the limit of the bike's ability to bank. Doing this over and over will give you better bike handling skills and confidence. I still do it.

2. Find a really, really technical descent. Doesn't have to be huge, and you don't want one where you get up to super high speed. On this course, practice braking the bike before each and every turn, even slowing down too much. In return, promise yourself that you won't brake at all during the turn. Ride this hill over and over, practicing this descent. Each time braking a little less going into the turns.

If you've absolutely got to brake in a turn, try to do it just past the apex like this: quickly use your hips to get the bike a little more upright, and apply the brakes, a little more front than back, just before skidding, then lean back into the turn finishing it. This obviously takes a lot of practice, as it's really easy to lose it, so practice it when you don't have to, at fairly low speeds.

I would also encourage you to be aggressive in your descending. Find any local hill you can get to, and learn to own it. Being timid about descending is only going to make things worse.

The only way to descend faster, on any bike, is practice. But you knew that.

Finally, though I've ridden many fast descents, even I get unnerved over about 50mph. Anyone who tells you hitting 60mph on a bike isn't a bit scary is lying through their teeth.

 

[fat buddha]

The only way to descend faster, on any bike, is practice. But you knew that.

agree wholeheartedly but as someone who has hit 68mph on a downhill in an Ironman may I suggest 2 other things

1. do lots of mountain biking as I have found this improves your handling skills and develops bravado. if you can hit fast speeds off road, fast road downhills are easy

2. try and leave your brain at the top of the hill! respect the speed but enjoy the feeling as well

when I hit that speed above I was just thinking "don't crash now - you're only wearing a lycra skinsuit!". amazing stuff is adrenalin....

 

[sherer]

When I used to ride ITT's with aero bars, I'd ride in the drops during descents. The hardest part of getting into a low tuck then is merely pedaling, which you won't have to do much of.

If there's one thing I'm still good at some 20 years after racing, it's still descending. I've gone over 60mph a few times, and love, love, love bombing descents.

I agree with some of the other advice, but I can give you two more things to practice:

1. Find a long non-technical downhill on a road with no traffic. Try to get the bike up to at least above 30mph. When descending it, carve big "S" back and forth across the road, all of it if you can, using your hips more than anything. You should feel what seems like the limit of the bike's ability to bank. Doing this over and over will give you better bike handling skills and confidence. I still do it.

2. Find a really, really technical descent. Doesn't have to be huge, and you don't want one where you get up to super high speed. On this course, practice braking the bike before each and every turn, even slowing down too much. In return, promise yourself that you won't brake at all during the turn. Ride this hill over and over, practicing this descent. Each time braking a little less going into the turns.

If you've absolutely got to brake in a turn, try to do it just past the apex like this: quickly use your hips to get the bike a little more upright, and apply the brakes, a little more front than back, just before skidding, then lean back into the turn finishing it. This obviously takes a lot of practice, as it's really easy to lose it, so practice it when you don't have to, at fairly low speeds.

I would also encourage you to be aggressive in your descending. Find any local hill you can get to, and learn to own it. Being timid about descending is only going to make things worse.

The only way to descend faster, on any bike, is practice. But you knew that.

Finally, though I've ridden many fast descents, even I get unnerved over about 50mph. Anyone who tells you hitting 60mph on a bike isn't a bit scary is lying through their teeth.

i've heard this before about using your hips for steering but not really sure how you do it. I just sort of learn over on the bike to turn corners not sure exactly how to use my hips.

The thing with descending is sometimes you don't live near any mountains where you can spend 30 mins on a descent. The most I get is one big hill with a few turns it just isn't long enough to really get any decent practice in

 

[davidg]

Watch this youtube video for the final word on Tri bike handling skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2oQUC_5fw0

Keep in mind, The Ras is a world champion mountain bike racer. He's got skills. Tri bikes are just ornery beasts. Time spent is the only way to progress.

I remember that well. Wet myself laughing!

Thanks for the re-post

 

[sometriguy]

Wow, Thanks everybody for great advice.

Somethings I picked up on:

1. I need to spend some time checking my bike out on descents... realize that little bobbles etc are nowhere near the point of knocking the bike over. I think I saw somebody wrote about putting knees against top tube to feel stable, I think I'll give that a shot. Also, the tip to do "S"s down a hill to really get a feeling for how the bike handles... love that.

2. I think the idea of owning the descents is big. I think I spend too much time looking down or thinking about how fast I am going. I think I need to look a couple of hundred yards up the road and think ahead and think less about where I am at.

3. Somebody had a tip about hitting the top of the hill hard and keeping the momentum. I think this is also a great tip. It will get me in the aggressive mood and take away a bit of the neverousness. Also, i have a tendency to do the opposite, hit the bottom of the climb hard and cruise to the top. This is probably the exact opposite of efficiancy.

I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Cheers!

 

[sometriguy]

Oh, also

1. I am the king of the death grip. I think that makes a big difference. Every bump= me freaking out. I've been practices riding with little to zero grip at all on the flats, hopefully this will help chill me out.

2. If there is wind, I think I can borrow a 404 from a buddy

3. Sounds like riding aero bars or on the handlebars is a personal preferences on comfort and also depends on whether or not there are curves that may require brakes.

Just fisualizing it and thinking of my short falls helps a lot. I have a tendiancy stay in denial on my weaknesses, just furthering their explotation.

 

[runninboy]

i've heard this before about using your hips for steering but not really sure how you do it. I just sort of learn over on the bike to turn corners not sure exactly how to use my hips.

The thing with descending is sometimes you don't live near any mountains where you can spend 30 mins on a descent. The most I get is one big hill with a few turns it just isn't long enough to really get any decent practice in

Alps suggestion is a great one, hard to explain how to steer w your hips, but it is pretty much like riding no hands. you kind of grip the saddle between your thighs and make small adjustments. To turn you just shift your weight a little more on the saddle.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

This is a great thread.

i've heard this before about using your hips for steering but not really sure how you do it. I just sort of learn over on the bike to turn corners not sure exactly how to use my hips.

Alps suggestion is a great one, hard to explain how to steer w your hips, but it is pretty much like riding no hands. you kind of grip the saddle between your thighs and make small adjustments. To turn you just shift your weight a little more on the saddle.

Exactly. Saddle, not top tube or bike. You should be fairly relaxed doing it, but have your rump firmly seated. Try descending with your hands very loose and relaxed on the bars, only making micro adjustments.

Another fun thing to try on descents to practice using your hips is to get going at least 25mph or so, and look ahead of you down the road for tiny objects - leafs, pebbles, etc. Take a line like you are going to go around the object on your right, then at the last second, use your hips only to throw the bike a little to the side to go around it on the left. I hope this makes sense.

The "hug the top tube with your thighs" works very good when you're at high speed and in a tuck. Not so much for anything technical - such as turns or sharp changes in gradient. If you do a lot of these you'll start to get a fore/aft feel of your weight as well.

As fast as I went, I didn't hit 68mph! I think about 62 was fast enough for me! But yes, speed can be fun. As stated, own the descent, and be confident and go down it with a smile. You bomb enough descents in the low 50's, you'll find yourself riding downhill in the low 40's like it's a Sunday stroll.

As BigBoat used to say, trust me, I used to be a coach. (Actually, I was an amateur coach for a short period of time, helping teach a few rookies. I think BigB may have been full of it).

 

[sherer]

thanks for the advice about the hibs will give it a go next time i am out.

Don't compare it to riding no hands though i've never got the hang of that

 

[sometriguy]

This is a great thread.




Exactly. Saddle, not top tube or bike. You should be fairly relaxed doing it, but have your rump firmly seated. Try descending with your hands very loose and relaxed on the bars, only making micro adjustments.

Another fun thing to try on descents to practice using your hips is to get going at least 25mph or so, and look ahead of you down the road for tiny objects - leafs, pebbles, etc. Take a line like you are going to go around the object on your right, then at the last second, use your hips only to throw the bike a little to the side to go around it on the left. I hope this makes sense.

The "hug the top tube with your thighs" works very good when you're at high speed and in a tuck. Not so much for anything technical - such as turns or sharp changes in gradient. If you do a lot of these you'll start to get a fore/aft feel of your weight as well.

As fast as I went, I didn't hit 68mph! I think about 62 was fast enough for me! But yes, speed can be fun. As stated, own the descent, and be confident and go down it with a smile. You bomb enough descents in the low 50's, you'll find yourself riding downhill in the low 40's like it's a Sunday stroll.

As BigBoat used to say, trust me, I used to be a coach. (Actually, I was an amateur coach for a short period of time, helping teach a few rookies. I think BigB may have been full of it).

My wife says she's seen me dance and says I'd kill myself if I tried to steer with my hips

 

[Indurain]

I'm getting anxious, nervous, ready to never race again, etc just reading this thread. You guys are Kamakazee riders!! Great tips, I just have a huge road of learning ahead of me when it comes to downhill descents.

 

[sometriguy]

I'm getting anxious, nervous, ready to never race again, etc just reading this thread. You guys are Kamakazee riders!! Great tips, I just have a huge road of learning ahead of me when it comes to downhill descents.

I feel ya... 62 and 68, ahhh!

Bikes are designed for it, i guess it is just a matter of convincing your brain of this... well that and not watching the jens voigt video too many times.

I had a pretty nasty spill during a sprint finish in a race last year. My cleat failed at about 35 and I have been a wussy every since. I have no idea how these pros go down, get up and act like nothing happened.

amazing.

 

[amp300]

Watch this youtube video for the final word on Tri bike handling skills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2oQUC_5fw0

Keep in mind, The Ras is a world champion mountain bike racer. He's got skills. Tri bikes are just ornery beasts. Time spent is the only way to progress.

Thanks for the vid.
That guy who kept pushing Ras should have turned his attention to the bobsled, those were some mighty pushes.