Trolling

[MarkvW]

Just like to go on record that I agree with Frank that there is no benefit to performance from owning or using a power meter.



That would be taking Frank's arguments personally. I am merely disputing his claims that there is an importance to crank length, that pedalling technique and that training with an uncoupled crank system is a superior training method to training with a coupled system.

From reading of the research, there is no evidence to support Franks claims and applaud the mods for their action banning the use of anecdotal reports as evidence for his claims. I do keep an open mind and await any new studies that show otherwise.

My purpose of this thread was to highlight Franks trolling of any power meter discussion with the strawman argument that power meters do nothing to improve performance. Again I thank the mods for the action they have taken.

Frank Day was banned for being off topic after a warning. The mods were not censoring him for content.

The mods shouldn't censor him for content. If other trolls want to constantly do battle with him, that's all well and good. There SHOULD be a thread where Frank and his trolls get to antagonize each other. But there is no need for the cranky crank controversy to creep into other threads--that's when it gets unreasonable.

Things only get screwed up when Frank Day hijacks a thread

 

[iZnoGouD]

i think people should take a test about cycling before they are autorized to post

 

[iZnoGouD]

One question should be, Who is the strongest rider? If they answer Tiago Machado they deserve posting here

 

[Zam_Olyas]

One man's troll post is another's man treasure or one man's troll is another man's good poster

 

[CoachFergie]

This troll has been spent a long time establishing a pattern...

This is from 2003...

françois siohan wrote:
> Now, it looks to me that if an isolated muscle can be at best 32%
> efficient, obtaining 28% from a whole body which also has to put up
> with
> the increased demands of a heart, lungs, etc. is not bad at all and
> leaves
> very little room for improvement.
>
> Any comments by biologists on this list?
I agree with you 100% - now we just need to convince Noel Crowley and
Frank Day! ]

 

[ElChingon]

One man's troll post is another's man treasure or one man's troll is another man's good poster

By the definition assumed here if you post you are trolling, if you reply you are trolling, if you post an opinion you are trolling, if you log in you are trolling. Then the mods ban people for this and then they trolled to be a mod...

 

[Afrank]

By the definition assumed here if you post you are trolling, if you reply you are trolling, if you post an opinion you are trolling, if you log in you are trolling. Then the mods ban people for this and then they trolled to be a mod...

Yep, pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

IMO people use the term troll here to describe other posters and their posts far too often. Accusing people of being trolls and saying their trolling has become the normal thing to do whenever you don't like what someone else says or thinks. It would be really nice if before people start hurling troll insults around that they took a moment to think "is this really trolling?" I'm sure a lot of times (not all the time) the answer would be no.

People should remember that this is just a discussion forum, and we should all be capable of discussing each others different viewpoints rationally and without resorting to trolling accusations.

 

[alitogata]

We have a good discussion going on in the Power Meter thread in the fitness section which is being really heavily trolled by one person.

When is something going to be done about this?

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=20109

I read the whole topic and I really don't get why you think that FrankDay is trolling. He asked you some very reasonable questions which you didn't bother to answer. You support an argument and it seems that you don't like any kind of objections. Is this how a discussion should be??

 

[Granville57]

Uh oh. You asked CoachFergie a question about FrankDay.

Now, are you trolling?

 

[alitogata]

Uh oh. You asked CoachFergie a question about FrankDay.

Now, are you trolling?

No I'm not trolling. I have same kind of queries and some doubts as well about power meters as FrankDay does and I kept on reading the topic hoping that perhaps will get answered but there was no discussion at all.

I didn't post anything because CoachFergie kept on telling that FrankDay asked in order to troll his topic and I thought that if I asked he would say the same for me.

I suppose that if someone begins a discussion with the title "Powermeter thread" doesn't start by taking as granted things that are doubtable.

Look what CoachFergie says in his first post:

As I have done for uncoupled cranks I thought I would start a power meter thread to discuss the science behind this measurement tool.

One common misconception with power meters is that they don't actually add in power to you cycling (I know, who would think such a thing) only measure it to allow for a wide range of testing in various situations. My Masters degree research project will be testing racing and training with a power meter against lab based power meter tests.

So first he says that power meters are measurement tools. ( I agree)
Then he says that is a misconception that power meters don't add power to your cycling, ( so are not just measurement tools)
Then he says that he will write about his Masters degree research project which tests racing and training with power meter.. ( as a measurement tool or as a power enhancement tool???? ? )

And when FrankDay asks to define he says that he is trolling.

If CoachFergie wanted to publish here his Master's degree research he could start a thread with this title. No problem at all. But if he wants to discuss about power meters in general, it is wrong to post all his sources for his research because he starts by taking for granted things that the rest who are reading, doubt.

I don't know if I wrote what I want to say well and you got my point.. Anyway.. my view is that power meters are measuring tools who help improve performance but this doesn't make them power enhancement tools and in that FrancDay is not trolling and did well for asking CoachFergie to define on what is his research based.

And is not trolling to have objections.

 

[Netserk]

I read the whole topic and I really don't get why you think that FrankDay is trolling. He asked you some very reasonable questions which you didn't bother to answer. You support an argument and it seems that you don't like any kind of objections. Is this how a discussion should be??

If you want to know why he is accused of trolling, you'd have to read the original threads.

 

[alitogata]

And in any case this thread didn't help much because it wasn't a discussion but a list of sources that support an argument that lot of people finds doubtable and need more sources to be proved, which are not available. And in any case ( no2) nobody gets in a discussion in order to do academic research by his self or worst make a research according the obviously already established believes of somebody else, which takes for granted some things and doesn't want someone else to object on his/her believes.

And I wouldn't like someone to call me troll just because I don't agree with his or her views.

 

[alitogata]

If you want to know why he is accused of trolling, you'd have to read the original threads.

I read the thread.. that is what I'm saying and I wrote it above..

 

[Netserk]

I read the thread.. that is what I'm saying and I wrote it above..

And I said the original threads.

 

[CoachFergie]

Then he says that is a misconception that power meters don't add power to your cycling, ( so are not just measurement tools)

??? Please refresh my memory where I said this or a plausible hypothesis how a power meter can actually add to the power one delivers to the pedals.

Then he says that he will write about his Masters degree research project which tests racing and training with power meter.. ( as a measurement tool or as a power enhancement tool???? ? )

The former as the later would be a neat trick. Maybe I will save that minor miracle for my PhD.

And when FrankDay asks to define he says that he is trolling.

The only confusion is yours. I have never suggested a power meter generates it's own power.

No problem at all. But if he wants to discuss about power meters in general, it is wrong to post all his sources for his research because he starts by taking for granted things that the rest who are reading, doubt.

Well, I did post a lot of papers published in peer review journals. All would suggest a power meter does what it intends to do, measure power.

I don't know if I wrote what I want to say well and you got my point.. Anyway.. my view is that power meters are measuring tools who help improve performance but this doesn't make them power enhancement tools and in that FrancDay is not trolling and did well for asking CoachFergie to define on what is his research based.

So how does a measuring tool improve performance. Do scales help people to lose weight or is that dieting and exercise? Do blood tests help improve ones iron levels or is supplementation or a change in diet? Does a measuring tape help one build a house or just ensure that a piece of wood fits where it should?

And is not trolling to have objections.

It is trolling to repeat the same misconception over and over again. As I pointed out in another thread (crank length) it is not the evidence that Frank Day provides that makes him a troll it is what he constantly ignores.

 

[CoachFergie]

And in any case this thread didn't help much because it wasn't a discussion but a list of sources that support an argument that lot of people finds doubtable and need more sources to be proved, which are not available.

What sources and what information. Plenty of credible information that power meters do in fact measure power. What some people do with that information or believe a power meter will do for them is highly spurious but that is not the fault of a power meter.

And in any case ( no2) nobody gets in a discussion in order to do academic research by his self or worst make a research according the obviously already established believes of somebody else, which takes for granted some things and doesn't want someone else to object on his/her believes.

My research is a testing a methodology (field based testing of the cyclist using a power meter) and I am going into this with an open mind.

 

[alitogata]

Why do you suggest that anyone here reads all the topics where you and Frank Day had a discussion?

I personally judge by the topic that I was interested to read. I really don't care about what you've said in the crank length topic because I'm not interested about this subject and I didn't read it at all. In this topic that you refer, the powermeter topic, you don't define what are you talking about.

I had same questions with Frank Day. Reading the topic without posting and trying to find out more about the subject, ( the power meters) I end up in the conclusion that you were the one who didn't want to discuss anything but your own point of view and not that Frank Day wanted to troll your topic.

As a result, your topic wasn't informative for me and didn't help me at all, and that happened not because Frank Day asked some things, ( that I wanted to ask as well ) but because you didn't bother to take account or answer any other's questions.

Don't take it personal but it is your fault and not Frank Day's that this discussion was not successful.

 

[CoachFergie]

Why do you suggest that anyone here reads all the topics where you and Frank Day had a discussion?

I don't suggest that.

I personally judge by the topic that I was interested to read. I really don't care about what you've said in the crank length topic because I'm not interested about this subject and I didn't read it at all. In this topic that you refer, the powermeter topic, you don't define what are you talking about.

It was a thread about racing and training with a power meter. Frank tried to hijack it with his nonsense. Many people reported it to the mods and he was asked to stop.

I had same questions with Frank Day. Reading the topic without posting and trying to find out more about the subject, ( the power meters) I end up in the conclusion that you were the one who didn't want to discuss anything but your own point of view and not that Frank Day wanted to troll your topic.

Others would disagree.

As a result, your topic wasn't informative for me and didn't help me at all, and that happened not because Frank Day asked some things, ( that I wanted to ask as well ) but because you didn't bother to take account or answer any other's questions.

My profound apologies.

Don't take it personal but it is your fault and not Frank Day's that this discussion was not successful.

Your opinion is duly noted.

 

[alitogata]

What happens is that you disagree in a topic and then you transfer this thing to other topics something that is totally wrong. If you didn't agree fro example with Frank Day, or whoever, about crank length this doesn't mean that he is totally wrong and you have to disagree with him on any other subject or any other topic ( and vice versa of course). Not even take for granted that the rest of us, who haven't read what happened previously, we have to read crosstalks which go from topic to topic because someone, one day, last year, didn't agree with somebody else about for example crank lengths and from then they don't like the one the other and don't agree by conviction anyway in all topics.

 

[CoachFergie]

What happens is that you disagree in a topic and then you transfer this thing to other topics something that is totally wrong. If you didn't agree fro example with Frank Day, or whoever, about crank length this doesn't mean that he is totally wrong and you have to disagree with him on any other subject or any other topic ( and vice versa of course). Not even take for granted that the rest of us, who haven't read what happened previously, we have to read crosstalks which go from topic to topic because someone, one day, last year, didn't agree with somebody else about for example crank lengths and from then they don't like the one the other and don't agree by conviction anyway in all topics.

Thanks for sharing. Fear not when Frank is wrong or being obtuse I am very specific with the why's

 

[alitogata]

It was a thread about racing and training with a power meter. Frank tried to hijack it with his nonsense. Many people reported it to the mods and he was asked to stop.

I had same questions with him. If I wrote them would you say that I would tried to hijack your thread? I don't care what others report. Obviously those who had same questions didn't report it. This doesn't make them a minority you know.

My profound apologies.

Oh please don't apologize it isn't personal and I don't blame you for something. You didn't do anything wrong to me.. I just tell you what I got from this topic that made me not to post in the end at all. But it is not personal..

 

[CoachFergie]

I had same questions with him. If I wrote them would you say that I would tried to hijack your thread? I don't care what others report. Obviously those who had same questions didn't report it. This doesn't make them a minority you know.

I am not a moderator and if someone has a legitimate question they should feel free to post. I felt that Frank was trolling that thread, complained and my complaint was upheld.

 

[alitogata]

I am not a moderator and if someone has a legitimate question they should feel free to post. I felt that Frank was trolling that thread, complained and my complaint was upheld.

If I've posted my (legitimate) question, which was/is the same kind of that Frank posted would you say that I was trolling too? I have same kind of arguments and I agree totally with what Frank Day posted and I didn't post anything because Frank Day covered me.

So I think that your complaint is not that fair because as you see there are other members that agree with Frank Day. Are they all of them trolls that want to hijack your thread?

ETA: I will repeat that it is not something personal. I don't know you and I don't really know what you've have discussed in the past with this member, which I don't know him as well and never talk to him too.

 

[CoachFergie]

If I've posted my (legitimate) question, which was/is the same kind of that Frank posted would you say that I was trolling too? I have same kind of arguments and I agree totally with what Frank Day posted and I didn't post anything because Frank Day covered me.

So I think that your complaint is not that fair because as you see there are other members that agree with Frank Day. Are they all of them trolls that want to hijack your thread?

Ask your question.

 

[alitogata]

Ask your question.

Friends??