Truth & Reconciliation

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hrotha said:
I honestly don't see how a T&R process would work. What's the incentive for the big names to come out and confess? Or for anyone from the magically clean period, 2008-2013? At most it'd work to document the Armstrong days. Besides, unless the UCI is fundamentally changed so that we can be sure cheats who haven't confessed won't be protected, business will go on as usual.
I think the UCI's best play would be to acknowledge that nearly every win in the last twenty years was tainted, announce an independent testing and adjudication body, and then draw a line in the sand by saying no doping incidents prior to the line will not be prosecuted. If WADA does not like it then ignore WADA. The UCI could also institute harsher punishments for some classes of doping products and techniques, perhaps lifetime bans. If necessary, the UCI can take the pro side of the sport out of the WADA system and go back to amateurs in the Olympics.
 
Jul 15, 2010
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Didn't USADA basically give out amnesty with the 6 month off season ban for full disclosure? A ban that a lot of injuries take longer to come back from and in the off season no less.

I suppose by amnesty, he means so no repercussions for not telling the truth.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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the UCI and WADA are ****ing on each others shoes for political points. We need them to act like they actually want the same thing. They have both spoken of the same named mechanism but as soon as somebody wants to do it they get all not in my sand box? It is sickening that we are watching politics again.
 
Master50 said:
the UCI and WADA are ****ing on each others shoes for political points. We need them to act like they actually want the same thing.
The point is they don't want the same thing. The uci wants at minimum to keep suppressing doping controversy.

Wada wants clean athletes. The two cannot meet.

Master50 said:
They have both spoken of the same named mechanism but as soon as somebody wants to do it they get all not in my sand box?
If the uci had their way, wonderboy gets a reduced penalty and credit for saving cycling with more lies and the hog is gone as the 'bad old days'.

This is the uci's problem. The IC could have done it, but that was the end for pat and hein.
 
Jun 1, 2011
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BroDeal said:
I think the UCI's best play would be to acknowledge that nearly every win in the last twenty years was tainted, announce an independent testing and adjudication body, and then draw a line in the sand by saying no doping incidents prior to the line will not be prosecuted. If WADA does not like it then ignore WADA. The UCI could also institute harsher punishments for some classes of doping products and techniques, perhaps lifetime bans. If necessary, the UCI can take the pro side of the sport out of the WADA system and go back to amateurs in the Olympics.
What need is there to draw a line in the sand? If Fignon's admission points to the earlier period...

The UCI should just be replaced. Not likely, however.
I've just read between the lines and it said "yes" in regards to suissegate.
 
Jun 15, 2010
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I'm not sure hiw thus T&R works.UCI,WADA and USADA can all give riders a pass but they can still be penalised by law enforcement or by sponsors/employers etc.
 
Jun 16, 2012
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simo1733 said:
I'm not sure hiw thus T&R works.UCI,WADA and USADA can all give riders a pass but they can still be penalised by law enforcement or by sponsors/employers etc.
Right. It's just smoke and mirrors until they come up with something else to distract the public and continue the slow destruction of the entire sport.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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reginagold said:
Right. It's just smoke and mirrors until they come up with something else to distract the public and continue the slow destruction of the entire sport.
Sortof- for the UCI (Pat/Hein), then thats true - but for the others (WADA,USADA etc) it is genuine.
The UCI have 2 goals, keep LA onside and keep there positions.

But it was (IIRC) CCN who were the first to suggest a TRC, and they got a reserved agreement from WADA.

del1962 said:
I am pessimistic that this T&R promise will just be a white elephant, the only ones that will confess are probably those who would have eventually.
Why do most eventually confess? Because they are about to be exposed.

Its prisoners dilemma.
If T&R is introduced and rider A admits and implicates rider B, rider B will get a sanction while rider gets amnesty. Its an omerta breaker.

simo1733 said:
I'm not sure hiw thus T&R works.UCI,WADA and USADA can all give riders a pass but they can still be penalised by law enforcement or by sponsors/employers etc.
Ya, that is the big difficulty in any process.
The flip side of that is how many countries have separate laws? Italy, France, spring to mind - most counties have the law there as a deterrent, so I think WADA have enough credibility to negotiate an amnesty there too.
 
Oct 14, 2012
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I really don't get what the objective of such a T&R "show" is. What cycling needs is a clear-out of the managers, DSs, doctors, Cycling administrators and money-men (one and the same, I think) who have controlled this farce for so long.

How is a T&R going to achieve this? Sure, it could be a good thing to allow riders to spill the beans, (even if it means LA gets to compete again against his test-y triathlete buddies) but how is that going to get rid of the shady crowd still involved in cycling?
 
Mar 10, 2009
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In the end it will all be hidden from us so basically we'll never get a realistic satisfaction as to what transpired and who was really involved other than our own insider info on the matter. One (of many) reason(s) I don't like the T&R. Sure it may save cycling (from what?) as its stated but its not like its dead now and just look at the sorry state its in.
 
May 26, 2009
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Does this excerpt from Dr M. , suggest he read my blogs ?

" Ya, that is the big difficulty in any process.
The flip side of that is how many countries have separate laws? Italy, France, spring to mind - most counties have the law there as a deterrent, so I think WADA have enough credibility to negotiate an amnesty there too."

Last year i suggested in my Posts " Amnesty " and created a letter , that " others " could USE , to their Gov. Leaders ! DOUBT , that after falling around in glee , any here thought the day would arrive WHEN THEY could ACT?

http://www.parrabuddy.blogspot.com/Petitioningchange

http://www.parrabuddy.blogspot.com/Letterstoheadsofgovernments

Today UCI have a management Meeting and PERHAPS , after phat's letter to IOC , y/day , Jacques Rogge , will have TOLD ,IOC Members attending to REMOVE the aigle tag team duo !

My comment elsewhere :

After arriving at the "UCIIC Procedural Hearing ", last Friday with a QC & 6 Lawers , who were required to " parrot " , his thoughts ,phat is now asking , the 101 " IOC Members " , to support him against , other IOC Members in Good Standing ?

Last May , phat failed in his bid for a post on the " Executive Committee ". Later in the year he had to stand down from WADA . This year he has had to stand down from the " IOC 2020 Site Submissions Process ", what next? Exclusion from IOC Membership ?

Does phat really expect the "IOC Membership " to support him , after his current antics ? " Dirty Linen " rarely gets exposed to the public by the IOC , yet phat just tipped over the UCI Laundry Trolley !

Time Jacques Rogge , displayed leadership and instructed IOC Members at the UCI Management Meeting , this day , to OUST the phat , before he can spend anymore , of the UCI 's petty Cash ! I doubt that the UCI Bank Account , has much left after he disbanded the " UCIIC " and paid off the Legal mouthpieces he chose to unnecessarily employ !

In addition , today the UCI Management Committee , need to call in the Auditors , to establish ALL the expenses , created by phat & nein , render these details to the Swiss authorities , to support the Info , already supplied by Paul Kimmage's Lawyer in Dec. 2012.
 
Dec 27, 2010
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In an ideal T&R world you would offer riders immunity based on their testimony and remove staff who have supplied, assisted and concealing doping either with individual riders or throughout their team. But with USADA speaking of "discretional immunity" for staff I can't see there being enough of a clearout.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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I realised today the T&RC is not for the dopers. It's for the guys who don't want to or didn't dope, to dob in their counterparts.

And that potential for being dobbed in, by people wanting to get something off their chests, or effect some positive change, is what has the potential to induce the dopers to own up.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
I realised today the T&RC is not for the dopers. It's for the guys who don't want to or didn't dope, to dob in their counterparts.

And that potential for being dobbed in, by people wanting to get something off their chests, or effect some positive change, is what has the potential to induce the dopers to own up.
I agree....the idea of a lone cyclist,keeping his doping secret from everyone is hard to imagine.

These guys don't even have their own hotel rooms, and are away from home for half the year.....most of them must talk to someone.
 
Jun 16, 2012
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coinneach said:
I agree....the idea of a lone cyclist,keeping his doping secret from everyone is hard to imagine.

These guys don't even have their own hotel rooms, and are away from home for half the year.....most of them must talk to someone.
USADA's suggestions, read carefully, would be very effective at getting small fish to give up fish who were so big they violated lots of criminal laws. I think this was USADA's intention. USADA would never presume to infringe on DOJ matters. They are the junior partner - recall USADA had to stand down completely during the entire time Birotte was doing any investigation. But the big fish can see this too, so it's going no where. More smoke and mirrors, push the problem down the road while pretending to try to do something about it. Sad.
 
May 3, 2010
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hrotha said:
I honestly don't see how a T&R process would work. What's the incentive for the big names to come out and confess? Or for anyone from the magically clean period, 2008-2013? At most it'd work to document the Armstrong days. Besides, unless the UCI is fundamentally changed so that we can be sure cheats who haven't confessed won't be protected, business will go on as usual.
Perception reality - the UCI wants to create the pretence of doing something without actually changing anything.

The UCI I think sees it like this: Everyone confesses who was involved in cycling before 2006, there are a few tearful confessions. Everyone is granted an amnesty, and then the TDF comes around and we see Wiggins, Froome, Dertie, Schleck all riding like they are on motorbikes. The UCI doesn't 'lose' its name riders who bring in the money, but it can show how 'tough' it is.

TRC as the UCI sees it, is like the biopassport - more about appearance than about reality.

What is more annoying is that the media lets the UCI/Armstrong vision of amnesty for all with a bit show trial thrown in as TRC go uncontested.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Perception reality - the UCI wants to create the pretence of doing something without actually changing anything.

The UCI I think sees it like this: Everyone confesses who was involved in cycling before 2006, there are a few tearful confessions. Everyone is granted an amnesty, and then the TDF comes around and we see Wiggins, Froome, Dertie, Schleck all riding like they are on motorbikes. The UCI doesn't 'lose' its name riders who bring in the money, but it can show how 'tough' it is.

TRC as the UCI sees it, is like the biopassport - more about appearance than about reality.

What is more annoying is that the media lets the UCI/Armstrong vision of amnesty for all with a bit show trial thrown in as TRC go uncontested.
Including the UCI.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Dear Wiggo said:
I realised today the T&RC is not for the dopers. It's for the guys who don't want to or didn't dope, to dob in their counterparts.

And that potential for being dobbed in, by people wanting to get something off their chests, or effect some positive change, is what has the potential to induce the dopers to own up.
Exactly - as I think I said elsewhere, a cascade or domino effect - you don't fess out of remorse, but out of fear. Fear being the more powerful inducement.
 
Feb 16, 2011
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When Lance said he'd be 'the first guy through the door' at a T&R meeting, he thought it was about T&A at the Yellow Rose.
 

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