TT riders

[MellowJohnny]

Is it purely down to genetics why certain TT riders outperform others (both specialist TT riders, climbers, sprinters, etc)

Could a Malori or a Dowsett somehow train harder to beat a Wiggins or a Martin?

I understand that sometimes its the luck of the draw on the day and other conditions but was just wondering for TT development etc.

 

[yespatterns]

Depends on the parcours. Traditionally power output and technique trumps weight and climbing ability. If you are training for it out thinking about it there is a lot of info online. Are you thinking of racing or just curious?

 

[ralphbert]

Is it purely down to genetics why certain TT riders outperform others (both specialist TT riders, climbers, sprinters, etc)

Could a Malori or a Dowsett somehow train harder to beat a Wiggins or a Martin?

I understand that sometimes its the luck of the draw on the day and other conditions but was just wondering for TT development etc.

Like all athletic performance there is genetic and environmental stimulus aspects. Nature vs Nurture if you will.

TT speed is a function of FTP & aero drag. You can work on both to increase your performance. Aero drag is largely seen as "free" speed but in my experience it takes a lot of work, thought and experimentation to minimize drag.

Expanding FTP takes graft and changes happen incrementally over time.

But at the end of the day, if you want to get better at riding your TT bike you need to ride your TT bike. Often.

 

[yespatterns]

Like all athletic performance there is genetic and environmental stimulus aspects. Nature vs Nurture if you will.

TT speed is a function of FTP & aero drag. You can work on both to increase your performance. Aero drag is largely seen as "free" speed but in my experience it takes a lot of work, thought and experimentation to minimize drag.

Expanding FTP takes graft and changes happen incrementally over time.

But at the end of the day, if you want to get better at riding your TT bike you need to ride your TT bike. Often.

But not in traffic. Seriously.

 

[MellowJohnny]

Depends on the parcours. Traditionally power output and technique trumps weight and climbing ability. If you are training for it out thinking about it there is a lot of info online. Are you thinking of racing or just curious?

Thanks for the response(s) - I guess both looking at Pro racing and also for myself perhaps - Just starting out next season potentially, there is a local 10 mile TT which passes through my village.

Why is it that Tony Martin can beat most people consistently? - Cancellera and Wiggins also seem to a league higher than most. I was wondering this while watching both the TTs in the Vuelta and the Tour of Britain.

Would Time Trialing favour taller riders? - I'm 5'11 - 6ft - I see that Wiggins, Martin, Millar, Froome are much taller.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Why is it that Tony Martin can beat most people consistently?

By far the most important two factors are power output and aerodynamics. You need to be both very powerful (sustainable aerobic power) and very slippery through the air.

We measure power output with unit of watts (W) and aerodynamic slipperiness by a quantity called coefficient of drag x frontal area - CdA - which is a combined value relating mostly to the size and shape of an object, and has units of m^2.

Speed is proportional to the ratio of power to aerodynamic drag, hence the higher your W/m^2 ratio, the faster you will TT.

Martin has one of the consistently highest W/m^2 ratios.

There are other factors as well, such as tyres, technical skill and pacing factors, but relative to power output and CdA, they are fine tuning.

Cancellera and Wiggins also seem to a league higher than most. I was wondering this while watching both the TTs in the Vuelta and the Tour of Britain.

Would Time Trialing favour taller riders? - I'm 5'11 - 6ft - I see that Wiggins, Martin, Millar, Froome are much taller.

It favours riders who are powerful and slippery.

In general, larger more powerful riders have a natural advantage as the increase in power for more lean body mass is less than the increase in CdA from being larger.

Body morphology is important. e.g. I have a mate who is same height, weight and power output than me, but he pursuits/TTs much more quickly simply because his body shape and bike position is far more aerodynamic (20% lower CdA) than I'm able to achieve.

 

[MellowJohnny]

By far the most important two factors are power output and aerodynamics. You need to be both very powerful (sustainable aerobic power) and very slippery through the air.

We measure power output with unit of watts (W) and aerodynamic slipperiness by a quantity called coefficient of drag x frontal area - CdA - which is a combined value relating mostly to the size and shape of an object, and has units of m^2.

Speed is proportional to the ratio of power to aerodynamic drag, hence the higher your W/m^2 ratio, the faster you will TT.

Martin has one of the consistently highest W/m^2 ratios.

There are other factors as well, such as tyres, technical skill and pacing factors, but relative to power output and CdA, they are fine tuning.


It favours riders who are powerful and slippery.

In general, larger more powerful riders have a natural advantage as the increase in power for more lean body mass is less than the increase in CdA from being larger.

Body morphology is important. e.g. I have a mate who is same height, weight and power output than me, but he pursuits/TTs much more quickly simply because his body shape and bike position is far more aerodynamic (20% lower CdA) than I'm able to achieve.

Thanks for the info Alex - I'm starting to like the sound of TTs - I just need to lose some excess kgs.

I understand that Cancellera is a very technical tt rider, he's able to corner better than most, Wiggins also had such a good low position on his bike.

I read some comments from Adam Hansen who said getting narrower bars are a big advantage, I think he races with them also but it may take some getting used to.

 

[yespatterns]

Well, i hope you're a bit of a masochist because TT'ing is not exactly pleasant even if you do it well. When you do it badly, it just plain sucks.

 

[MellowJohnny]

Well, i hope you're a bit of a masochist because TT'ing is not exactly pleasant even if you do it well. When you do it badly, it just plain sucks.

I'm wondering whether I can take on the world (or local area) on my just above entry level road bike.

I've gunned down a few of the Time Trials on my rides home but I'm basically just a fat sprinter.

 

[Bavarianrider]

It's pretty simple.
In flat Time trials your Watt/aero resistance is deceisive.
Also heavier riders are favored due to the laws of physics. A 75 kilo rider needs a lot less Watt/Kilo to go 50 for example than a 60 Kilo rider.
While lighter riders are heavily favored in mountains so are bigger ones in the flat. That's why it is such a shame there are hardly any real and long flat TT any more.
Also riding on the limit is a lot more difficult at high speeds.
Wind is also a factor. The bigger and more powerful you are the less you are affected by headwind and the more you can take advantage of tailwind.
Also the ability to pace yourself and find your limit is difficult without oppnents.
Of course, due to powermeters this art isn't that important any more, saddly

 

[MellowJohnny]

It's pretty simple.
In flat Time trials your Watt/aero resistance is deceisive.
Also heavier riders are favored due to the laws of physics. A 75 kilo rider needs a lot less Watt/Kilo to go 50 for example than a 60 Kilo rider.
While lighter riders are heavily favored in mountains so are bigger ones in the flat. That's why it is such a shame there are hardly any real and long flat TT any more.
Also riding on the limit is a lot more difficult at high speeds.
Wind is also a factor. The bigger and more powerful you are the less you are affected by headwind and the more you can take advantage of tailwind.
Also the ability to pace yourself and find your limit is difficult without oppnents.
Of course, due to powermeters this art isn't that important any more, saddly

I guess a power meter is an essential item to have, it will come in handy for my climbing also.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I'm wondering whether I can take on the world (or local area) on my just above entry level road bike.

I've gunned down a few of the Time Trials on my rides home but I'm basically just a fat sprinter.

TTs are one of the best and easiest ways to start competitive cycling. There's no need for special equipment to start with, as you are really competing with yourself mostly.

Eventually if you really enjoy the challenge and get the bug, then you'll spend years refining ways to improve power and reduce CdA.

It sort of depends a bit on the availability of TTs in your local region. They are more popular in some places than others (e.g. the UK and some locations in the US) but rarer to find TTs in other places. Not many TTs in Australia for instance, with a few exceptions with one location north of Sydney and in Perth that hosting regular TTs. Else it's a bit random. Some clubs hold their own club TT for members only.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I guess a power meter is an essential item to have, it will come in handy for my climbing also.

Very useful, not essential. There are many uses of a power meter for helping improve performance, e.g.:
- understanding your current abilities
- training specificity to improve power output
- help with mutual accountability with coach
- pacing assessment and improvement
- testing and improving aerodynamics

It can be straightforward, or exceptionally detailed, which up to you. Everyone is different in their preferences and approach.

 

[JayKosta]

All of the comments about things such as: power/kg, aero, position equipment, etc. is true and do have a direct effect.

BUT, a huge part is 'how much pain can you endure?'
To ride a TT well you need to find the point at which you feel -
"I don't think I can maintain this pace, but I'll do it anyway".

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

All of the comments about things such as: power/kg, aero, position equipment, etc. is true and do have a direct effect.

BUT, a huge part is 'how much pain can you endure?'
To ride a TT well you need to find the point at which you feel -
"I don't think I can maintain this pace, but I'll do it anyway".

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

I've summarised it as follows:

Riding a good fast time trial is a combination of:
- Logistics and preparation to ensure you start on time
- Good pacing, especially the opening minutes, and over any hills
- Training to develop the highest “threshold” power output you can sustain
- Optimising aerodynamics and using good tyres (to attain the highest speed for the power you have)
- Concentration and learning how to “suffer” – or put another way, being able to ride right at the edge of your ability cliff the entire time without falling over the edge!

 

[MellowJohnny]

Whenever I think of suffering I think of climbing mountains.

I guess Contador and Armstrong were not big guys height-wise and used to do fairly well, Also I think Nibali has come a long way TT-ing and is the same height as me, just a shame he's 20kgs lighter

 

[Oldman]

By far the most important two factors are power output and aerodynamics. You need to be both very powerful (sustainable aerobic power) and very slippery through the air.

We measure power output with unit of watts (W) and aerodynamic slipperiness by a quantity called coefficient of drag x frontal area - CdA - which is a combined value relating mostly to the size and shape of an object, and has units of m^2.

Speed is proportional to the ratio of power to aerodynamic drag, hence the higher your W/m^2 ratio, the faster you will TT.

Martin has one of the consistently highest W/m^2 ratios.

There are other factors as well, such as tyres, technical skill and pacing factors, but relative to power output and CdA, they are fine tuning.


It favours riders who are powerful and slippery.

In general, larger more powerful riders have a natural advantage as the increase in power for more lean body mass is less than the increase in CdA from being larger.

Body morphology is important. e.g. I have a mate who is same height, weight and power output than me, but he pursuits/TTs much more quickly simply because his body shape and bike position is far more aerodynamic (20% lower CdA) than I'm able to achieve.

This is important and Mellow Johnny can train himself to be more efficient and gain improvements. Flexibility is the key.

 

[MellowJohnny]

For someone who has never raced and didn't have a road bike until 3 years ago I seem to be quite powerful (at least on Strava).

I need to get the aero bars out again I think.

Would working on Plyometrics exercises be of benefit perhaps?

 

[williamp78]

Read this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faster-Obse...ie=UTF8&qid=1410893927&sr=8-1&keywords=faster

 

[MellowJohnny]

Read this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faster-Obse...ie=UTF8&qid=1410893927&sr=8-1&keywords=faster

Thank you - I'll get a copy

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

For someone who has never raced and didn't have a road bike until 3 years ago I seem to be quite powerful (at least on Strava).

I need to get the aero bars out again I think.

Would working on Plyometrics exercises be of benefit perhaps?

Strava is not a power meter.

Just go pin a number on your back and find out where you sit in the speed scheme of things.

Your question on plyos depends on what your objective is.
For riding fast TTs? I can think of several dozen things you'd want to be doing before thinking about plyos. And then I'd think up some more.

 

[David_Incognito_66]

Is it purely down to genetics why certain TT riders outperform others (both specialist TT riders, climbers, sprinters, etc)

Could a Malori or a Dowsett somehow train harder to beat a Wiggins or a Martin?

I understand that sometimes its the luck of the draw on the day and other conditions but was just wondering for TT development etc.

lol another loser blaming genetics.

 

[Horse Meat]

I think doing a lot of interval training helps with TT's. The longer you can go anaerobic the better...

If you do a TT right, typically you can't walk afterwards. I have climbed off the bike and been unable to take my bike shoes off or be able to push the clutch in on the car. That's what victory feels like!

 

[David_Incognito_66]

That's how a TT in a race should feel like, but if do that in training u won't progress.

 

[RedheadDane]

By far the most important two factors are power output and aerodynamics. You need to be both very powerful (sustainable aerobic power) and very slippery through the air.

*snipped*

It favours riders who are powerful and slippery.

*snipped*

Aaah... those slippery riders!