Tubs vs clinchers: Clinchers are faster..

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

My "Gotcha" stands. Your argument boils down to "101 is not much bigger than 100, therefore 101 = 100". You can change it to "10001 = 10000", or "small difference = no difference" if you like, but in the real world it just ain't so.

If you truly believe your assertion that the bike is only 3-10% of the equation, stick some fat knobbies on for your next bunch ride (put them on your wheels or stick them up our shorts, either works for me No, I don't care whether or not they fit between your 'seat stays' ). Yes, it's an example you dismissed earlier, but it's only ludicrous because the effect is obviously large. "Of course 100 is bigger than 10, duh. That proves my math is OK! But I still insist 101 = 100!"

The "identical clone" is exactly what you have in Alex's post. He didn't say some other rider, on some other day, riding a different line, on some other course, with different power output would have been faster on a faster tire. He said one particular rider, on one particular day, riding one particular line, on one particular course, at the same power output would have been faster on a faster tire.

Regarding Hutchinson tires, we're on the same page, except that last I checked LA never won very much in his career

Still no gotcha, even after all that.

Alex said his competitor in that TT would have been 20sec faster had he been on different tires. My argument all along is that this is impossible to prove based on lab results. If you can, there must be some kind of award for guessing and speculation.

 

[twothirds]

Hate to say it, but your opinion is just as much speculation as his.

 

[ElChingon]

Hate to say it, but your opinion is just as much speculation as his.

Very true, but getting him to acknowledge it, well its never going to happen.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Very true, but getting him to acknowledge it, well its never going to happen.

"OPINION"? Pfffffwwaaaaat?!?!? Ho-ho-ho, Christmas for no common sense is cancelled!!! If you can prove the dilemma in question, then you win. Otherwise quit wasting our time Chingy. You have absolutely nothing to add here, again. Just like last time, and what did that get you?

 

[ElChingon]

"OPINION"? Pfffffwwaaaaat?!?!? Ho-ho-ho, Christmas for no common sense is cancelled!!! If you can prove the dilemma in question, then you win. Otherwise quit wasting our time Chingy. You have absolutely nothing to add here, again. Just like last time, and what did that get you?

Aren't I in your banned list, guess you can't resist.

Don't blame you.

 

[dsut4392]

Still no gotcha, even after all that.

Alex said his competitor in that TT would have been 20sec faster had he been on different tires. My argument all along is that this is impossible to prove based on lab results. If you can, there must be some kind of award for guessing and speculation.

Your argument all along has been based on rhetoric rather than logic. If I could be confident I was being trolled I would be mildly amused and say "chapeau", but I think you actually believe yourself...

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Your argument all along has been based on rhetoric rather than logic. If I could be confident I was being trolled I would be mildly amused and say "chapeau", but I think you actually believe yourself...

Prove what Alex is saying to be absolutely true and you win.

What is it about the off season that forum members spill into other sections where they aren't all year, then you come here and act like you know something? 4 years on repeat. I stay well away from "The Clinic", for good reason, I know very little about doping in the sport even though I was racing against known cheats and was offered EPO and HGH from the local chiropractor that treated most of the teams, I still have no expertise.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Prove what Alex is saying to be absolutely true and you win.

What is it about the off season that forum members spill into other sections where they aren't all year, then you come here and act like you know something? 4 years on repeat. I stay well away from "The Clinic", for good reason, I know very little about doping in the sport even though I was racing against known cheats and was offered EPO and HGH from the local chiropractor that treated most of the teams, I still have no expertise.

Besides Nancys ride clinchers...

 

[twothirds]

Prove what Alex is saying to be absolutely true and you win.

What is it about the off season that forum members spill into other sections where they aren't all year, then you come here and act like you know something? 4 years on repeat. I stay well away from "The Clinic", for good reason, I know very little about doping in the sport even though I was racing against known cheats and was offered EPO and HGH from the local chiropractor that treated most of the teams, I still have no expertise.

Why don't you offer up some factual information to prove your point and put the argument to rest? My guess is if you had that info you would've already offered it up.

 

[The Gnome]

Besides Nancys ride clinchers...

lol...I have no dog in this fight but being a nancy boy I ride clinchers exclusively as I find em easier overall and in fact ride conti 4000's...besides the fact that everyone at my nancy boy meetings would beat me up if I didn't ride clinchers and if there is anything worse than being a nancy boy it is being beaten up by a nancy boy ...and as much as I would love to think so there is just no way any clincher, including 4000's, are faster or as fast as any good tubular...pure PR BS...ride clinchers if you want, but don't bs yourself...

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Why don't you offer up some factual information to prove your point and put the argument to rest? My guess is if you had that info you would've already offered it up.

Easy. When was the last time you heard any pro declare 'I won _____ TT because of my ______ tire'? Tony Martin's Worlds win on clinchers should be making headlines all over the place.. 'Martin's tire choice won him WORLDS!!!'

If you think you're going to gain 20 sec in a TT with a tire swap, wheel(my line of work for over 20 years) change, frame switch, of comparable performance in this day and age you have simply lost your mind!!! I suppose I should have asked Alex straight out of the gate if his competitor that day was on knobbys.

 

[dsut4392]

Prove what Alex is saying to be absolutely true and you win.

If the only proof you'll take is an absolute truth handed to you on a plate, I see where I've gone wrong. Here I am trying to explain where your argument has departed from logical principles, and you're thinking we're in a game of "win the internet".

What is it about the off season that forum members spill into other sections where they aren't all year, then you come here and act like you know something? 4 years on repeat. I stay well away from "The Clinic", for good reason, I know very little about doping in the sport even though I was racing against known cheats and was offered EPO and HGH from the local chiropractor that treated most of the teams, I still have no expertise.

Would you like some cheese with that w(h)ine?. Here's a rhetorical question right back at you: What is it about forums that some loud talking regulars think they own the place, belittle anyone who doesn't agree with their bluster for posting less often, and think having been on a particular forum for 4 years means something?

 

[ElChingon]

If the only proof you'll take is an absolute truth handed to you on a plate, I see where I've gone wrong. Here I am trying to explain where your argument has departed from logical principles, and you're thinking we're in a game of "win the internet".

Would you like some cheese with that w(h)ine?. Here's a rhetorical question right back at you: What is it about forums that some loud talking regulars think they own the place, belittle anyone who doesn't agree with their bluster for posting less often, and think having been on a particular forum for 4 years means something?

Dead on man. Its the only thing he has to stand on, its the usual what ever is in stock is the best. I'm sure he's still clicking the mod delete button but hey its no longer there, he's probably PM-ing one though, too many posts calling him out can't have that.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Dead on man. Its the only thing he has to stand on, its the usual what ever is in stock is the best. I'm sure he's still clicking the mod delete button but hey its no longer there, he's probably PM-ing one though, too many posts calling him out can't have that.

Twice in two weeks should get you either a warning or a ban. All I can do is report you for trolling, baiting, disruption, and offering absolutely nothing to these threads but to attack me. It's in the mod hands from here on, I've completely washed my hands from that. You know, boasting that you have infraction points in your signature might be a good indication of who we're dealing with.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

If the only proof you'll take is an absolute truth handed to you on a plate, I see where I've gone wrong. Here I am trying to explain where your argument has departed from logical principles, and you're thinking we're in a game of "win the internet".

Would you like some cheese with that w(h)ine?. Here's a rhetorical question right back at you: What is it about forums that some loud talking regulars think they own the place, belittle anyone who doesn't agree with their bluster for posting less often, and think having been on a particular forum for 4 years means something?

Give me a break! Don't forget I wouldn't have said peep if it wasn't for your "gotchas". Just another case of dishing it out but not being able to take it. Classy.

What's your profession dsut, clearly some sort of math wiz or professor since you can't possibly be wrong in this matter? I've been in the bicycle industry my entire professional career. In the last 10 years I've consulted on product development with Ambrosio, Edco, Gommitalia, and Challenge to name just a few. There is more like six, but I also have signed non-disclosure agreements with non-compete clauses that are still very much valid. Have you contributed in anyway to the cycling industry, are we missing something?

Out the door for a 50 miler on the 1st of December. SUCKERS!!!!

 

[red_flanders]

Too bad a few people have to ruin a thread. It's become pointless. Please don't restart this snit in another thread, or there will be some early and long Christmas vacations.

 

[red_flanders]

Opening the thread back up after cleanup. Please stop insulting one another or it will be permanently closed and some vacations will be handed out. Thanks!

 

[42x16ss]

Alex Simmons you are wasting your time here. The evidence based approach works everywhere else except cycling apparently. I must have seen this lab vs real world argument a thousand times now. You get any result in a "test" you are meant to completely ignore it because there are lots of other variables etc etc. What's really happening is people don't understand enough about physics and the relationships between the relevant variables. We'd still be riding around on Penny Farthings if we'd paid too much attention to them.

Wait a second guys. Alex, are we talking about the difference between say, a Specialized Armadillo and a Conti GP4000? Or a Michelin Pro Race 4 and a Vittoria Corsa Evo? What was your competitor using on the day?

If it's the former, then of course there will be a difference, if it's the latter, tyre choice isn't a factor I'd be worried about. A few people on both sides are getting a bit too fired up before they have all the facts...

 

[dsut4392]

OT

Please forgive the OT post.

Have had a cordial PM exchange with Giuseppe Magnetico and he has asked me to pass on his regards to the forum, from which he is taking an unplanned break for family reasons. He hopes to rejoin us in the new year for more robust discussion of all things bike.

Meanwhile my thanks to red_flanders for cleaning up and getting us back on track.

 

[BroDeal]

Please forgive the OT post.

Have had a cordial PM exchange with Giuseppe Magnetico and he has asked me to pass on his regards to the forum, from which he is taking an unplanned break for family reasons. He hopes to rejoin us in the new year for more robust discussion of all things bike.

Meanwhile my thanks to red_flanders for cleaning up and getting us back on track.

Well, this forum is headed into the crapper...

Who will step up and post more here?