Two brilliant Kimmage interviews

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
The Hitch said:
What you say is true in that the uci behaved wrong. They could have taken an anti doping stance. But i don't see why this was a huge opportunity. In hindsight they wouldn't have been able to stop dopers dominating cycling for another 8or 9 years at the least.

So huge opportunity to do what? To show they are anti doping? It was an opportunity but they could.do that at anytime with a different example, didn't have to be right then.
Vaughters (whatever you think of the man, I think his recent story about his own career is pretty much accurate) said that 1998 brought hope to all non-dopers as well. It was the start of the day, but the morning never followed.

Benotti69 said:
I think Pierre Ballester and Jeremy Whittle are up there alongside Kimmage and Walsh.

But i agree, for all the praise Kimmage gives to Garmin, it is strange to hear Vaughter's avoid returning it.

But there are lots of things about JV that dont add up.
Interestingly, Vaughters is pretty complimentary towards Sky and their "marginal gains". I've no idea what to make of that, especially as he also agreed Leinders is pretty shady, but that doesn't seem to change his judgment. Perhaps that's what disappoints me most about him. For all his advocating clean cycling, he seems to have an own agenda as well, in which he forgets things he should be addressing.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
2
0
Arnout said:
Vaughters (whatever you think of the man, I think his recent story about his own career is pretty much accurate) said that 1998 brought hope to all non-dopers as well. It was the start of the day, but the morning never followed.
I am not sure. JV doesn't address much in a direct manner.

Arnout said:
Interestingly, Vaughters is pretty complimentary towards Sky and their "marginal gains". I've no idea what to make of that, especially as he also agreed Leinders is pretty shady, but that doesn't seem to change his judgment. Perhaps that's what disappoints me most about him. For all his advocating clean cycling, he seems to have an own agenda as well, in which he forgets things he should be addressing.
Garmin are allegedly involved with a doctor called Dr San Millan who has a dodgy CV.

As I said lots of things with JV dont add up. In this sport that leads one to a conclusion that is not positive. But lots of posters closer to the sport than I seem to think he is kosher. I have my doubts and think Wiggins 4th was not clean in 2009 even though JV says he was.
 
Benotti69 said:
As I said lots of things with JV dont add up. In this sport that leads one to a conclusion that is not positive. But lots of posters closer to the sport than I seem to think he is kosher. I have my doubts and think Wiggins 4th was not clean in 2009 even though JV says he was.
The problem is that most closer to the sport have an agenda too, which I'm sure you're aware of. The more I'm reading, the more I'm doubting about what to believe.

What I found interesting is that Vaughters, in the last answer of the transcript, basically admitted that he prevents his riders from getting caught by being first. He says he monitors his cyclists and that sometimes there are suspicions, in which case he acts. It's a pity we don't hear more about this, for whatever reason.

In any case, it's far from transparent.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
2
0
Arnout said:
The problem is that most closer to the sport have an agenda too, which I'm sure you're aware of. The more I'm reading, the more I'm doubting about what to believe.

What I found interesting is that Vaughters, in the last answer of the transcript, basically admitted that he prevents his riders from getting caught by being first. He says he monitors his cyclists and that sometimes there are suspicions, in which case he acts. It's a pity we don't hear more about this, for whatever reason.

In any case, it's far from transparent.
The blood passport is a greenlight to dope, but not above a certain level. If you break that level you are in trouble.

The teams that do internal testing have a better management of those levels and are better able to manage their doping.
 
Indeed, what I found disturbing was his arguing that the blood passport was a good thing because riders could only dope a little from now on, and that small amount that was possible is beatable by marginal gains or better training. The logical follow-up question would be: what if the two (marginal gains and doping) are combined. A baby would understand this logic, but this logic never came in the interview.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
2
0
Arnout said:
Indeed, what I found disturbing was his arguing that the blood passport was a good thing because riders could only dope a little from now on, and that small amount that was possible is beatable by marginal gains or better training. The logical follow-up question would be: what if the two (marginal gains and doping) are combined. A baby would understand this logic, but this logic never came in the interview.
This is my understanding of how Garmin are competing. The reason they live in Spain, Hesjedal trains in Hawaii. It is the marginal gains they use during training that allow them to compete and be competetive.
 
Paul Kimmage Interview:
Armstrong, the UCI and the true winners of those Tours

"“I’m not being flippant about the case, but I’m absolutely dismayed and astounded that the UCI’s idea of fighting doping is to start chasing people like me and start bringing people like me to court,” he said. “That for me is totally reflective of why the sport is in the mess the sport is in now. Bjarne Riis and Johan Brunyeel are paraded and applauded as leaders within the sport, and I’m chased through the Swiss courts and vilified. That is totally reflective of what is f**king wrong with this sport, and why it is in the mess that it’s in.”
 
"It should probably also be noted this weekend that Paul Kimmage was once a professional sportsmen who became a journalist. There will be a lot of crowing about journalism this weekend but if Kimmage and David Walsh can be satisfied with their work on the Lance Armstrong case, it only demonstrates the importance of going against the herd. Armstrong was too good to be true but journalists who wanted to question more recent fairytales weren't allowed to by editors, or instead chose to write fantasies of their own."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/real-insight-means-knowing-when-to-swim-against-the-tide-3210254.html
 
Jul 8, 2009
187
0
0
Benotti69 said:
The blood passport is a greenlight to dope, but not above a certain level. If you break that level you are in trouble.

The teams that do internal testing have a better management of those levels and are better able to manage their doping.
Exactly right. There is zero doubt in my mind that the level of doping and probably the number of individuals doping is lower than it was by a not inconsequential margin. The blood passport (which only came about because of high profile positive after high profile positive) is one of the main reasons. But it's also a tool that can be used to manage doping. It strikes me that it allows the UCI to effectively warn people as well, without having it be as risky as they were with Armstrong and I'm sure others.

It's a net positive, but as long as it's in the hands of the UCI, it's also enabling lesser sorts of doping than the full on death wish EPO of the 1990's.
 
Aug 13, 2010
3,317
0
0
Another Kimmage interview

“... but in terms of the riders who are leaders of the sport – the Bradley Wiggins, the Froomes, the Contadors – has there been one strong, coherent statement about this? Has there been one positive statement where somebody actually applauds an anti-doping agency for doing its work, for exposing a cheat? Has there been any statement from any of these guys about this? Not one.
“What does that tell you? What it tells me is that omerta, the problem that existed in my time when I left the sport in 1989 is still there. For me, it’s not reflective of the fact that these guys are all cheating, even if you could be forgiven for assuming that. My own belief is that the real problem is the fear of speaking out. When there are repercussions for speaking out against doping, it means that nothing has changed. Nothing has changed. For me that’s the real problem there.”

More...
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
2
0
Don't be late Pedro said:
Another Kimmage interview

More...
He is bang on. The current patrons keeping theirs mouths shut to me says that as Kimmage says nothing has changed. So nothing has changed, so doping is still prevalent in the sport, which dismisses JV and his crap about a cleaner sport.

The doping is not the same, but it is till very much part of a riders training and performance.
 

the big ring

BANNED
Jul 28, 2009
2,135
0
0
Benotti69 said:
He is bang on. The current patrons keeping theirs mouths shut to me says that as Kimmage says nothing has changed. So nothing has changed, so doping is still prevalent in the sport, which dismisses JV and his crap about a cleaner sport.

The doping is not the same, but it is till very much part of a riders training and performance.
And I think even JV has hinted (and I concur) that it does not make for a level playing field.
 
My take on it all. Many, many are still doping. However they are just doing in less quantities...the reaction of the past few days of the riders is unbelievable. They have the champions they deserve - dopers.
 
Benotti69 said:
He is bang on. The current patrons keeping theirs mouths shut to me says that as Kimmage says nothing has changed. So nothing has changed, so doping is still prevalent in the sport, which dismisses JV and his crap about a cleaner sport.

The doping is not the same, but it is till very much part of a riders training and performance.
By far the best article yet: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/kimmage-uci-needs-root-and-branch-surgery

I have to agree. Excellent.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
Benotti69 said:
I am not sure. JV doesn't address much in a direct manner.



Garmin are allegedly involved with a doctor called Dr San Millan who has a dodgy CV.

As I said lots of things with JV dont add up. In this sport that leads one to a conclusion that is not positive. But lots of posters closer to the sport than I seem to think he is kosher. I have my doubts and think Wiggins 4th was not clean in 2009 even though JV says he was.
Not this again.
There is no allegedly, Garmin are indeed involved with San Millan, however there is nothing dodgy at all about the guy.

Could yourself and sniper please stop distorting stuff - there are enough facts to assume the sport has not changed significantly, there is plenty of suspicion about some people- but making up things is actually counter productive.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Dr. Maserati said:
Not this again.
There is no allegedly, Garmin are indeed involved with San Millan, however there is nothing dodgy at all about the guy.

Could yourself and sniper please stop distorting stuff - there are enough facts to assume the sport has not changed significantly, there is plenty of suspicion about some people- but making up things is actually counter productive.
Not this again.
The guy has an extremely dodgy team history, and even you agree he must have known about the doping going on in those teams. Whether that suffices for, and justifies, calling San Millan dodgy is a sheer matter of taste. Feel free to disagree, but you can't say I'm distorting things by calling him dodgy. Fact is that JV hasn't mentioned or addressed the guy, but at the same time claims transparency to be his trade mark.

EDIT: let alone San Millan's apologizing doping on his professional website. Yes, that's pretty dodgy.
And what does 'involved with San Millan' mean? Why isn't he contractually related to Garmin, yet Garmin go visit him in Denver? Sounds dodgy. Something a transparent anti-doping DS might want to explain.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
sniper said:
Not this again.
The guy has an extremely dodgy team history, and even you agree he must have known about the doping going on in those teams. Whether that suffices for, and justifies, calling San Millan dodgy is a sheer matter of taste. Feel free to disagree, but you can't say I'm distorting things by calling him dodgy. Fact is that JV hasn't mentioned or addressed the guy, but at the same time claims transparency to be his trade mark.
Thats all he has -the teams were dodgy. Nothing more.
Take your JV stuff to the JV thread - Kimmages points are a lot more pertinent to cycling and doesn't need to get lost in your stupid rants.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Dr. Maserati said:
Thats all he has -the teams were dodgy. Nothing more.
Take your JV stuff to the JV thread - Kimmages points are a lot more pertinent to cycling and doesn't need to get lost in your stupid rants.
What's up Doc? to be sure, there's only one ranting and it aint me.
Now be nice.
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
2
0
Dr. Maserati said:
Thats all he has -the teams were dodgy. Nothing more.
Take your JV stuff to the JV thread - Kimmages points are a lot more pertinent to cycling and doesn't need to get lost in your stupid rants.
Kimmage criticises JV for taking on Dekker and trying to take on Contador.

Kimmage also said nothing has changed. I agree. Garmin cant be clean in an environment where nothing has changed.

If Kimmage looked a bit deeper he might be inclined to be more critical.

San Millan has worked for a lot of dodgy teams.

As Chrirtophe Bassons said, why do teams need Doctors? In his 6 years as a pro he never needed the team Doctor. Team Doctors are there for one thing only. Enhancement by medicine of performances.

Think Bassons is having a stupid rant do we?
 
Benotti69 said:
Yep. Good article. Cycling has needed more and more of this stuff.

I notice idiots like Fotheringham have gone silent!

Bet Rouler magazine ignores this issue.
My feeling is that everyone is (in the cycling world that is) is in suspended limbo. They’re in a holding pattern. They still feel that this won’t play out and Armstrong will keep his titles. I feel give it a few days, maybe a couple more weeks and you’ll see the winds change. Too many people were comfortable with the situation over the last 12 years which was “haters” vs Armstrong with no evidence. It all going to start to leak out and of course the cycling media will all say “told you so”.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
13,250
1
0
sniper said:
What's up Doc? to be sure, there's only one ranting and it aint me.
Now be nice.
Benotti69 said:
Kimmage criticises JV for taking on Dekker and trying to take on Contador.

Kimmage also said nothing has changed. I agree. Garmin cant be clean in an environment where nothing has changed.

If Kimmage looked a bit deeper he might be inclined to be more critical.

San Millan has worked for a lot of dodgy teams.

As Chrirtophe Bassons said, why do teams need Doctors? In his 6 years as a pro he never needed the team Doctor. Team Doctors are there for one thing only. Enhancement by medicine of performances.
Benotti69 said:
Think Bassons is having a stupid rant do we?
Kimmage both praises Gamin/JV for some of what they do - and takes them to task for some things they do and rightly so, its called objectivity. You and sniper have none.

Bring up your pointless arguments if you must in the JV thread.
Benotti69 said:
Think Bassons is having a stupid rant do we?
As for Bassons - of course he was not having a stupid rant, because he did not say half the things you attributed to him - he went to his own Doc, not the team Doc - IsM is not the Garmin team Doc.

Please stop distorting things people say.
 

the big ring

BANNED
Jul 28, 2009
2,135
0
0
thehog said:
My feeling is that everyone is (in the cycling world that is) is in suspended limbo. They’re in a holding pattern. They still feel that this won’t play out and Armstrong will keep his titles. I feel give it a few days, maybe a couple more weeks and you’ll see the winds change. Too many people were comfortable with the situation over the last 12 years which was “haters” vs Armstrong with no evidence. It all going to start to leak out and of course the cycling media will all say “told you so”.
I hope you're right. But the way things have been the last few days, I reckon a "truth and reconciliation" thing would be utterly pointless.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY