Two Questions About Levi???

[ricara]

First of all, how can we explain Levi's performance compared with Lance's?

With Lance it seems clear that he came into the race doped to the gills and got a high placing in the prologue. But as the race went on, he seemed to grow weaker and increasingly unsure. Most of the posters in The Clinic have asserted that Lance wasn't receiving his normal "fillups", presumably because of increased scrutiny in this race.

So where does that leave Levi? How was he able to stay in the front group? I have no doubts that he was doping to achieve that finish, but how can Levi get away with it if Lance can't?

The second question pertains to some of Levi's past history. My memory is failing me, so I'm looking for some of you guys to fill me in.

The way I remember it was that around five or six years ago Levi raced his first Tour and did amazingly well. As I recall, he was on some (smaller?) team that couldn't support him properly.

So after the Tour was over, somebody signed him as being the next great US hope (I think Lance was "retiring"). They were going to build a team around him so that he could win the Tour.

Levi was in heaven until months later (in the off season?), the DS hired somebody else who was an even better rider. Levi was totally ****ed, but he never complained (at least not publicly).

Was the DS Bruyneel? That sure sounds like something he would do!

And who was the other rider? Was it Contador? If so, that was where AC learned to dope.

Whoever the cast of characters in that back-stabbing episode were, Levi is now the Great White Hope for Radio Shack and Bruyneel. There may be some delicious irony at work here....

 

[Cerberus]

First of all, how can we explain Levi's performance compared with Lance's?

With Lance it seems clear that he came into the race doped to the gills and got a high placing in the prologue. But as the race went on, he seemed to grow weaker and increasingly unsure. Most of the posters in The Clinic have asserted that Lance wasn't receiving his normal "fillups", presumably because of increased scrutiny in this race.

So where does that leave Levi? How was he able to stay in the front group? I have no doubts that he was doping to achieve that finish, but how can Levi get away with it if Lance can't?

One possibility is that the discrepancy between their performances had nothing to due with dope. Staying in a front group of 10 riders is nothing new for Levi, the surprise is LA not doing so. It is indeed possible that LA couldn't do it because he didn't get refills, but it's also possible that it was because of his crash, or because of a hunger knock, or dehydration, or one of those much talked about off-days. Doping plays a huge role in cycling, but it doesn't explain everything. Personally I think LA's performance was so bad that it can't be accounted for solely by a lack of refills, though of cause hard data on the performance gain from refills is hard to come by.

As for your second question I don't recall, perhaps someone else does.

 

[Avoriaz]

when Discovery signed Basso?

 

[hrotha]

You have Levi's history wrong. He rode for US Postal, was 3rd in the 2001 Vuelta and signed to Rabobank as a potential GT leader. He was 8th in the 2002 TdF, which was a good result but it surely didn't impress anybody, as the expectations were high. Later he switched to Gerolsteiner where he kept doing his thing with solid but not brilliant performances at the Tour. Then in 2007 he went back (the team was now Discovery) and was 3rd (a performance about as full of brilliance as Julich's 1998 podium if you ask me). It's important to note by the time he went back to Discovery he was almost 34.

 

[Carl0880]

when Discovery signed Basso?

Yes, they signed him for the 2007 season and rode for them up until late April, when he was let go from his contract for personal reason. A few days later was when he confessed to "attempted doping", which led to him being given a banned which lasted until the Japan Cup of 2008.

 

[Cloxxki]

Could it be that the one rider just benefits from a given program more than the other? For instance, Levi being a natural GC contender who doesn't improve a whole lot under Bruyneel's care, just some. From top-10 to top-5.
Lance may thrive more, or get better attention (well, DUH on that) in the Bruyneel program. When the program is not employed because of caution, Levi is still a GC contender, Lance no longer.

It seems to be more and more about talent. Andy was a freak from the start. And just look at the kid. Contador the same, but now is human and has trouble breaking the sound barrier (no Bruyneel program, just a cautious new Astana regime). Gesink the unpredictable factor, shows his talent, just didn't have enough of it yesterday. Etc, etc. Levi just hung on.

Notice that Kloden is also not doing too well. He was better than Lance last year, IMO. A helper should not help a leader reach a summit finish. Amstrong might have helped Kloden win the whole thing last year.

 

[Pedaaldanser]

Refills usually happen on the rest days so maybe the top-up they all had just before the tour started wasn't enough for Armstrong's old and worn out (that's what all that dope over the years does to you!) body to last through the entire first week, but enough for the younger (or at least less worn out) Leipheimer.

More likely Armstrong just wasn't strong enough, he already didn't seem to have it anymore last year and this year he also hadn't made a good impression on me (Tour of Swiss wasn't particularly strong riding by him either).

Of course, crashing takes a few % of you due to injuries and time loss/increased effort to catch up, so that probably mattered as well, but I don't think he would have made the cut in a crash-free stage either, he would probably still have lost like 5 minutes so this is really a good excuse to hide behind.

 

[poupou]

I do believe that Levi is more naturaly gifted than Lance for stage races.

Between 1992-96, the lack of recovering abilities of Lance was clear, and explained his average performances.

With the help of Ferrari's potions and programs, he became the unbeatable rider.

Now with less help, he is back to his ranks.

He probably began that Tour higher than Levi but day after day he lost quicker his strength and now Levi is the strongest of the 2.

Who of them would get the best refuelling during the rest day?

 

[Cloxxki]

For crying out loud! Can the various competing unions and agencies please make sure the suspected dopers to get the blood checked way often around the rest day? Make some nice graphs of their values with limited time in between.

 

[american psycho]

All you haters suck my sidewalls!

Between 1992-96, the lack of recovering abilities of Lance was clear, and explained his average performances.

Do you think there is any slim chance that having cancer might have attributed to his 'lack of recovering abilities ' in the mid 1990s?

I do not doubt that Ferarri and JB potions are not a big part of the success formula, but the lack of objectivity of the haters is hard to swallow.

 

[Cloxxki]

Do you think there is any slim chance that having cancer might have attributed to his 'lack of recovering abilities ' in the mid 1990s?

I do not doubt that Ferarri and JB potions are not a big part of the success formula, but the lack of objectivity of the haters is hard to swallow.

Realistically, how long do you think his cancer would have affected his results before he was diagnosed, and medically forced to stop racing?
It's not like continuing racing with a lingering discomfort in a joint or muscle.
From his book, it seemed to be more a matter of weeks than years which lost in getting good treatment asap, being too stubborn to acknowledge he wasn't OK. His results didn't drop too drastically before he was diagnosed, I think?
Granted, LA when he had his day before his illness, he was a mighty dangerous contender. Riding long races solo in the lead. Dropping Indurain at Worlds. Specific talents cannot be denied. GC's were just not one of them.

 

[blackcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIWlvEhnjt8&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc1URT3XAmE&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVFKx-Zb_Mk&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrCmq3Z0uI0&feature=channel

 

[Cloxxki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIWlvEhnjt8&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc1URT3XAmE&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVFKx-Zb_Mk&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrCmq3Z0uI0&feature=channel

Please summarize? No access to YT here. And for those with limited to, to decide whether to click or not.
Thanks!

 

[Big Doopie]

I do believe that Levi is more naturaly gifted than Lance for stage races.

Between 1992-96, the lack of recovering abilities of Lance was clear, and explained his average performances.

With the help of Ferrari's potions and programs, he became the unbeatable rider.

Now with less help, he is back to his ranks.

He probably began that Tour higher than Levi but day after day he lost quicker his strength and now Levi is the strongest of the 2.

+1. precisely. and it is why armstrong is the greatest fraud. he would never have won a single tour, not even close. and yet there he stands the most successful tour rider in history. the most famous cyclist of our time. the wealthiest cyclist of all time.

and all because he cheated.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

For crying out loud! Can the various competing unions and agencies please make sure the suspected dopers to get the blood checked way often around the rest day? Make some nice graphs of their values with limited time in between.

They have all managed to turn the bio passport on its head. In the days leading up to and just after a rest day they ought to take blood 2X/day, pre and post stage and also on the rest day. Sorry boys, you made a mockery of competition and turned yourself into junkies, so we're gonna start treating you like junkies.

 

[Cerberus]

They have all managed to turn the bio passport on its head. In the days leading up to and just after a rest day they ought to take blood 2X/day, pre and post stage and also on the rest day. Sorry boys, you made a mockery of competition and turned yourself into junkies, so we're gonna start treating you like junkies.

"But there's a perfectly good reason why my HTC went up 5 points on the rest day! It's my superior recovery and the rice cakes!"

 

[blackcat]

Please summarize? No access to YT here. And for those with limited to, to decide whether to click or not.
Thanks!

humorous youtube parodies of Lance v Bottle v Hog

 

[Orinda8]

Do you think there is any slim chance that having cancer might have attributed to his 'lack of recovering abilities ' in the mid 1990s?

I do not doubt that Ferarri and JB potions are not a big part of the success formula, but the lack of objectivity of the haters is hard to swallow.

No chance at all. Testicular cancer is rapidly growing, by the time that he was diagnosed the cancer had been present for 12 months at most and would not have been large enough to affect his performance for more than one season.

 

[Ripper]

I'm not so sure LA was "doped to the gills" coming into the TdF. Funny thing to me is that doing well in a short prologue is more likely than not where LA would normally perform without le dopage. His 'natural' abilities are more inline with the short term power of a prologue or 1-5 lap break (in a crit) than in GT recovery, HC Climbs, and long TTs.

LA is quite old now and all those years of nothing but good luck have led to a year of more than one's normal share of bad luck.

Poorer recovery (d/t age) + less dopage + crashing a lot = poorer performance.

Make no mistake about it, there was definitely pharma preparations, as there are for many riders. But "doped to the gills" is pushing it. IMO the field is cleaner than it has been in the past. Of course, in the past it was quite the spectacle , just check out 1999 and 2000, when they climbed mountain switchbacks like Cat 1 racers sprinting out of a corner in a crit

 

[Big Doopie]

yes. when did we start to see gc riders extend their competitive years well into ther 30s.

once blood vector drugs came into play.

apart from a few exceptions (poupou and zoetemelk) gc riders always started to decline after around age 30 -- and main thing was always recovery. they might have some great days, but their bad days would be more frequent.

since 1991 we have had a succession of late winners and people who manage to race GCs with no bad days well into their 30s.

the only way armstrong came back last year, finished 3rd with amazing ability to recover, was that he was being sustained day in day out with blood vector drugs and/or blood doping.

 

[Anonymous]

Hhmmm... how about LA flatting in stage 2 and crashing 3 times in Stage 8? Maybe that has something to do with Levi being ahead of LA? No? Doping or not, you have that much bad luck you aren't going to win anything.

Call it bad luck, karma, whatever, LA has had a teribble first week. The only ones to have worse weeks are VDV, Frank Schleck, Gerrans and others that broke something that did not allow them to go on.

Honestly, I have little faith in Levi. He's an also-ran that will never get to the top step of the Tour podium. He has flashes of brilliance but not enough to ward off the likes of AC and AS when push comes to shove.

 

[hrotha]

since 1991 we have had a succession of late winners and people who manage to race GCs with no bad days well into their 30s.

Indurain won his last Tour at 31 and retired at 32. Whatever he was doing, it was not the same as LA & Levi.

 

[Anonymous]

Hhmmm... how about LA flatting in stage 2 and crashing 3 times in Stage 8? Maybe that has something to do with Levi being ahead of LA? No? Doping or not, you have that much bad luck you aren't going to win anything.

Call it bad luck, karma, whatever, LA has had a teribble first week. The only ones to have worse weeks are VDV, Frank Schleck, Gerrans and others that broke something that did not allow them to go on.

Honestly, I have little faith in Levi. He's an also-ran that will never get to the top step of the Tour podium. He has flashes of brilliance but not enough to ward off the likes of AC and AS when push comes to shove.

Where are the flashes of brilliance? Where were the flashes of brilliance? Like you say in you post, "He's an also-ran that will never get to the top step of the Tour podium." He is basically a Tommie-D with 6 shots of costa rican expresso shots without the trips to the toilet!

 

[Oldman]

Could it be that the one rider just benefits from a given program more than the other? For instance, Levi being a natural GC contender who doesn't improve a whole lot under Bruyneel's care, just some. From top-10 to top-5.
Lance may thrive more, or get better attention (well, DUH on that) in the Bruyneel program. When the program is not employed because of caution, Levi is still a GC contender, Lance no longer.

It seems to be more and more about talent. Andy was a freak from the start. And just look at the kid. Contador the same, but now is human and has trouble breaking the sound barrier (no Bruyneel program, just a cautious new Astana regime). Gesink the unpredictable factor, shows his talent, just didn't have enough of it yesterday. Etc, etc. Levi just hung on.

Notice that Kloden is also not doing too well. He was better than Lance last year, IMO. A helper should not help a leader reach a summit finish. Amstrong might have helped Kloden win the whole thing last year.

RS may still be willing to take a certain risk with Levi, or not. Either way Levi has actually been racing more. Lance was "preparing" for the start of the race but had little real chance beyond that. Levi's regime could prepare him for the first week(s) of this race but I don't expect him to manage the amount of attacking to come, especially in the last week. I think several teams have multiple candidates for the podium and will be very aggressive...Liquigas, Rabo, Euskatel. Levi's number will come up in a race not dominated by a race not controlled by a single, strong team. Evans will likely show his season's mileage in that scenario as well.

 

[Anonymous]

Where are the flashes of brilliance? Where were the flashes of brilliance? Like you say in you post, "He's an also-ran that will never get to the top step of the Tour podium." He is basically a Tommie-D with 6 shots of costa rican expresso shots without the trips to the toilet!

Flashes of brilliance:

ToC champ 2007-2009
TDF - (podium) 3rd
Dauphine 2006
etc...

Also-ran may have been harsh but it's pertaining to the high hopes as a Tour GC contender but never quite getting farther than 3rd on the podium.

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