U23 races and talents

[Devil's Elbow]

Can we talk about the KOM points on a viaduct at the U23 Giro?

 

[Onizuka999]

In my opinion it's a ridiculousness the kom on a viaduct. This year they've already done it in a Coppi & Bartali stage near Bondeno

 

[AvA8]

Difference between what I expect and what he himself expects. Given his own expectations this is a pretty bad TT. It's that simple.

Havent seen him saying he wanted to win the TT but if so then you have a point here.

 

[SafeBet]

It's bad for someone who got 9th last year and has been training 12 hours a week on the TT bike and expected a lot from this TT.

Of course it probably won't matter in the end. I don't see him as the best climber here, but it does say something about his form or more the fact he's been stagnating a bit this year, which was to be expected if you literally ride the same schedule as last year.

Who do you think will be the best climber here?
Widar is regarded as the top favorite for the race by most in Italy.

 

[AvA8]

Who do you think will be the best climber here?
Widar is regarded as the top favorite for the race by most in Italy.

Nordhagen, Novak, Finn, Omrzel...

 

[Samamba]

Who do you think will be the best climber here?
Widar is regarded as the top favorite for the race by most in Italy.

Nordhagen is favorite to me. He's being underrated cause his 2024 was a bit meeh due to getting sick every 2 weeks. He's always been better than Widar climbing wise. I'm not saying he's necessarily more talented than Widar overall, but I don't think Widar made a step this year and I think that was to be expected given the step he made last year and the fact that he's not increasing his engine by riding pro races like others are doing.

And I wouldn't be surprised if one of the 2006 guys is better too.

We'll see, maybe Widar surprises me, but in Isard he looked pretty bad imo and the TT didn't give me the feeling he's in top shape either.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

He's being underrated cause his 2024 was a bit meeh due to getting sick every 2 weeks.

His 2024 was pretty good in the circumstances, IMO it's his lacklustre 2025 that is causing people to dial back their expectations.

But then again Widar's 2025 has also been lacklustre (partially, or perhaps even mostly, due to some bad career decisions in the past 12 months), so not sure if there even is a clear favourite here.

 

[Samamba]

IMO it's his lacklustre 2025 that is causing people to dial back their expectations.

He was 8th in the queen stage in Romandie tho, after a few stages of working for Brennan and ruining his GC.

But then again Widar's 2025 has also been lacklustre (partially, or perhaps even mostly, due to some bad career decisions in the past 12 months), so not sure if there even is a clear favourite here.

I don't think Widars season so far has been lacklustre. He won what he had to win, had 2 good performances in smaller pro races, it's just that I don't think he's as pure as a climber as others. If this was a week of hilly LBL like stages he would be the favorite. It helps that the mountain stages aren't that hard like in Avenir tho.

I'm fine with saying there isn't a clear favorite, but I don't get why Widar is being seen as THE favorite everyone as if he's miles ahead. I think he's slightly overhyped.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I don't think Widars season so far has been lacklustre. He won what he had to win, had 2 good performances in smaller pro races, it's just that I don't think he's as pure as a climber as others. If this was a week of hilly LBL like stages he would be the favorite. It helps that the mountain stages aren't that hard like in Avenir tho.

He was very inconsistent in what was basically a week of LBL like stages in Coppi e Bartali though. Yes, he's had some days of being among the better riders against .1 level opposition, but I think it's fair to say he hasn't genuinely wowed at any point this season.


And as for being a pure climber, probably his best race last year was the hardest espoir climbing test of them all at Valle d'Aosta.

He was 8th in the queen stage in Romandie tho, after a few stages of working for Brennan and ruining his GC.

The problem is that that stage is a big outlier compared to the rest of his season so far. Two weeks before that he was finishing with Unai Iribar of all people on a MTF at Tour de Jura, and the resulting 10th place was his season highlight at that point.

 

[Samamba]

He was very inconsistent in what was basically a week of LBL like stages in Coppi e Bartali though. Yes, he's had some days of being among the better riders against .1 level opposition, but I think it's fair to say he hasn't genuinely wowed at any point this season.


And as for being a pure climber, probably his best race last year was the hardest espoir climbing test of them all at Valle d'Aosta.

He wasn't inconsistent, he is just bad at positioning (definitely in a pro peloton) and was behind a crash on some decent where the peloton split. He tried to come back but race was over after that. Stages after that he attacked multiple times.

Hard to "wow" when you're barely riding pro races. He was good in one stage of Haut Var after a week of sickness.

Aosta was meeh level, apart from some doped Kazak (Torres crashed hard).

 

[Devil's Elbow]

He wasn't inconsistent, he is just bad at positioning (definitely in a pro peloton)

Positioning is an integral part of consistency. Matthew Brennan is a great example in Widar's age bracket.

 

[Samamba]

Positioning is an integral part of consistency. Matthew Brennan is a great example in Widar's age bracket.

I mean this is a bit of moving the goalposts. I've always said he's bad at positioning and that it will be his main problem at pro level (and that that's another reason why he should be riding more pro races cause he isn't learning it in races where can just move past 50 riders with ease on a hill). It was pretty obvious I have been talking about his physical form.

Also even if you count that stage, it's one bad day. He was fine the stages after. Top 3 best on the climbs even.

What Brennan has is a gift that barely any rider has.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I mean this is a bit of moving the goalposts.

I don't think it's moving the goalposts for me to say that positioning factors into consistency when I was the guy bringing consistency into this discussion in the first place.

I would also argue that a season where Widar doesn't progress much in terms of numbers but becomes much better in terms of positioning/consistency would still amount to him taking a step. Him not progressing in terms of the one makes him not progressing in terms of the either a bigger issue, and that goes in either direction.

Maybe I'm being a bit critical considering we're talking about second year U23s (agewise if not teamwise), but when you look at what Ayuso and also Uijtdebroeks were doing at this age, what Del Toro and Pellizzari were up to the year after their Avenir heroics, and what Seixas is doing right now despite being a year younger, it's undeniable that Widar, Nordhagen and also Torres are having underwhelming seasons by comparison. And considering that all three are seen as big talents, it's a justifiable comparison to make.

Finally, I think we also simply disagree on when a season is lacklustre for a young rider. You said Widar hasn't taken a step in your opinion, in my view a season where a rider this age doesn't take any steps is a lacklustre season almost by definition (I might make an exception if a rider's first U23 season was Evenepoel 2019-esque).

What Brennan has is a gift that barely any rider has.

I'm not arguing that Brennan is the standard Widar should be held to (it really shouldn't be), I'm arguing that it isn't a coincidence that probably the highest level of positioning we've ever seen in a 19-year-old is translating to probably the most consistent season we've ever seen by a 19-year-old, and that this illustrates how positioning is an important part of consistency.

 

[Samamba]

I don't think it's moving the goalposts for me to say that positioning factors into consistency when I was the guy bringing consistency into this discussion in the first place.

I would also argue that a season where Widar doesn't progress much in terms of numbers but becomes much better in terms of positioning/consistency would still amount to him taking a step. Him not progressing in terms of the one makes him not progressing in terms of the either a bigger issue, and that goes in either direction.

Maybe I'm being a bit critical considering we're talking about second year U23s (agewise if not teamwise), but when you look at what Ayuso and also Uijtdebroeks were doing at this age, what Del Toro and Pellizzari were up to the year after their Avenir heroics, and what Seixas is doing right now despite being a year younger, it's undeniable that Widar, Nordhagen and also Torres are having underwhelming seasons by comparison. And considering that all three are seen as big talents, it's a justifiable comparison to make.

Finally, I think we also simply disagree on when a season is lacklustre for a young rider. You said Widar hasn't taken a step in your opinion, in my view a season where a rider this age doesn't take any steps is a lacklustre season almost by definition (I might make an exception if a rider's first U23 season was Evenepoel 2019-esque).


I'm not arguing that Brennan is the standard Widar should be held to (it really shouldn't be), I'm arguing that it isn't a coincidence that probably the highest level of positioning we've ever seen in a 19-year-old is translating to probably the most consistent season we've ever seen by a 19-year-old, and that this illustrates how positioning is an important part of consistency.

I'm not gonna respond to your whole post cause you're kinda responding to things I never said or definitely not ment. My whole point is that it was quiet obvious that I was talking about Widars (climbing) form, and I'm just not sure how you can say he's not been consistent when he had 2 (!!!) "bad" results this season, doesn't matter if positioning has something to do with consistency or not. It costed him one good result (yes and a GC sure).

Del Toro and Pellizzari were a year older and it's only a fair comparison to the others for people who actually thought Widar was similar to an Ayuso or Seixas. That's kinda what I'm saying, I don't think he's that good at the pure climbing part. And it's dumb to compare every talented junior to them.

Also with a step I mean pure numbers wise (which were already really good last year ofc, he could already win at pro level). Maybe i'm just looking a bit too much into his form at Isard, where he was imo very disappointing given the field, even tho he won the GC. Also I'm taking into account what Widar himself thinks and says. He won't be happy with just being a little bit better at positioning this season.

I'm just pretty annoyed with his schedule this year. I think it doesn't benefit him at all riding races he HAS to win all year, with pressure, where he can only lose and get demotivated in instead of riding more pro races to increase his engine, what other riders from his age are doing. He showed last time he's ready enough for the pro ranks. And yes if he wants to stay u23 technically cause he wants to ride Worlds that's fine, but that doesn't mean you can't ride 2 more pro races instead of Isard and Aosta for example.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

At this point i don't know how much sense it makes to start comparing every 18 or 19 year old to the best 18 or 19 year olds that burst onto the pro scene. We've had quite a few young riders the past few years. Ayuso doesn't seem to have improved at all since 2022. Uijtdebroeks surely hasn't. Poole has not shown real improvement over the past 2 years. Onley, a bit of the same feeling there. The only rider who has is Del Toro, but he is actually one of the few who did 2 years at U23.

Let's see how Seixas improves the next couple of years. Widar could still improve, he has all the basics of what makes a good climber. He has a big engine and he is small and extremely light. But there was another guy matching those descriptions a bit older who is starting to realise he might not be winning the Tour de France after all, going by the name of Thomas Pidcock.

 

[Samamba]

Vervenne might make it till the end. Would be a big win for him. Missed out on a pro contract at the end of 2023, then got his 2024 ruined by mononucleosis and needs to prove himself this year (well for a WT contract, Flanders Baloise would always be keen on getting him probably).

 

[SafeBet]

Super strong performance by Vervenne!