UCI to trial disc brakes?

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

This is pathetic. Many riders tested disc brakes and not all liked them. Get over it, who are you to tell what people should ride or like or not (unless you have a vested interest, as I suggested earlier).

The point isn't what someone likes or doesn't like, but better brakes give a clear advantage in certain circumstances. In cycling not as much as in motorsports for obvious reasons, but still there's an edge to gain here, and it will be exploited by some riders.

Do you have any source for that? What exact advantage do they give to a pro rider in a professional race? We're not talking about an amateur here who only changes his cables every six months, or who has poor technique, or who has little experience of descending in wet conditions.

Specifically, what advantage do they give to a pro rider like Contador who has ridden hundreds of thousands of kilometres on rim brakes and know exactly how they feel and respond to every situation they will encounter on the road, and who has never had an issue as a result of those brakes?

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

This is pathetic. Many riders tested disc brakes and not all liked them. Get over it, who are you to tell what people should ride or like or not (unless you have a vested interest, as I suggested earlier).

The point isn't what someone likes or doesn't like, but better brakes give a clear advantage in certain circumstances. In cycling not as much as in motorsports for obvious reasons, but still there's an edge to gain here, and it will be exploited by some riders.

As last a thread on this subject in PRR. The more skilled the rider the less advantage provided by discs. I can't imagine Nibali would benefit too much. And the point many forget is the ultimate limitation in braking isn't with the rim / caliper but with the tyres adhesion to the road (ie, resistance to skidding). Discs are easier to modulate and less likely to lock up. But if you are skilled that difference is minimal. Any half decent rim brake setup can lock the wheels, so ultimate braking distance is set by tyre adhesion, not braking system.

Every other new technology in cycling had no downsides. Now we are expected to pay more to lug half a kilo around for the odd occasion where discs might be beneficial. We don't race in the mud or on 20% declines like downhill MTB. I don't mind the UCI legalizing them but I'm not rushing down to "upgrade".

 

[Tim B]

Re: Re:

This is pathetic. Many riders tested disc brakes and not all liked them. Get over it, who are you to tell what people should ride or like or not (unless you have a vested interest, as I suggested earlier).

The point isn't what someone likes or doesn't like, but better brakes give a clear advantage in certain circumstances. In cycling not as much as in motorsports for obvious reasons, but still there's an edge to gain here, and it will be exploited by some riders.

Do you have any source for that? What exact advantage do they give to a pro rider in a professional race? We're not talking about an amateur here who only changes his cables every six months, or who has poor technique, or who has little experience of descending in wet conditions.

Specifically, what advantage do they give to a pro rider like Contador who has ridden hundreds of thousands of kilometres on rim brakes and know exactly how they feel and respond to every situation they will encounter on the road, and who has never had an issue as a result of those brakes?

Depends if you believe what Tom Boonen had to say yesterday in a Q&A http://road.cc/content/news/217341-tom-boonen-disc-brakes-choice-wheels-and-%E2%80%A6-alpaca-farming

"He was asked: “At which point in which races will disk brakes make the biggest difference for you?”

Boonen said: “Everywhere! In the Classics, on a downhill, going into the last kilometre of a technical final and having better bike control, you name it, disc brakes will make the difference.”"

 

[LaFlorecita]

Yeah, Specialized are really pushing disc brakes.

 

[Tim B]

Re: Re:

Never happens. :lol:

https://youtu.be/j7bacvGYnpo

To be fair, that crash was more about the white line in the wet than anything else

True but I'm being as fair as Ventoso's claim that a disc brake rotor cut his leg.

Haha, true, that was total BS. A lot of these guys aren't paid to be smart, it's either work on the family pig farm or ride a bike for a living.
Road cycling, the management, DS's etc are so often stuck in the "old ways" that they are afraid of change and the riders only know what they are told. Half of them don't even know what tyre pressures they run, the mech does it for them and they just ride.

Is it that weird that when a rider gets caught up in a mass crash in one of the first races with disc brakes, sees his skin and tissue has been literally scraped off his bone, something he probably hasn't seen or heard of before, puts 1 and 1 together and figures it must be the newly added disc brakes that caused it whether that is true or not? But sure, keep ridiculing him.

I will. I can understand under the circumstances that he may have thought that, even though logic says it's nearly impossible, but instead of saying that they'll look into it to find out what happened, he shot his mouth off to every camera, microphone and social media outlet that was pointed in his direction telling of the horror of being sliced open by these spinning blades of death, which, he had absolutely no idea about. This (rightly) promoted the UCI to halt the trial, but even after it was shown that there was no way a disc was involved, as far as I know, he has never once come out and said, you know what guys, oops, sorry, I messed up there, so yes, he deserves to be ridiculed.

 

[Tim B]

Re:

Yeah, Specialized are really pushing disc brakes.

Right, so if they like discs they are paid to say it and if they don't like them they are an expert?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Yeah, Specialized are really pushing disc brakes.

Right, so if they like discs they are paid to say it and if they don't like them they are an expert?

No, but I can't help but notice how the Etixx riders show off their disc brakes at every opportunity. They might still like the brakes but it's obvious the sponsors had a say in it.
I just don't believe they will make a big difference to experienced, skilled pros. And if the pros feel the gains are only marginal, why would they switch when they're fully used to rim brakes and can do everything they want to do with them as well? As DFA posted, these riders have ridden hundreds of thousands of km on those brakes and know exactly how they'll respond. It makes no sense to switch to material you aren't very familiar with if there are no significant gains.

 

[spalco]

Re: Re:

Do you have any source for that? What exact advantage do they give to a pro rider in a professional race? We're not talking about an amateur here who only changes his cables every six months, or who has poor technique, or who has little experience of descending in wet conditions.

Specifically, what advantage do they give to a pro rider like Contador who has ridden hundreds of thousands of kilometres on rim brakes and know exactly how they feel and respond to every situation they will encounter on the road, and who has never had an issue as a result of those brakes?

In principle it's very simple. If you can brake later you can go full speed longer before having to brake, meaning you gain distance on opponents who have to brake earlier.

Now Cookster15 says there is no difference in braking distance between rim brakes and disc brakes. If that is true, then I agree they are useless, but my (anecdotal, non-technical) experience says otherwise.

And if there is a measurable difference in braking distance, then someone will use them to win.
For example I could see Cancellara having a much better shot at winning Milan-San Remo in the previous editions if he had had such an advantage at the time.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Poels using typical scare tactics with videos that aren't even his. Most likely he never even tested a disc bike in the off season.

Contador retweeted Poels' tweet and he tested disc brakes late last year (and said he wanted to toss the bike off a mountain)

I'm totally baffled by this. Someone like Contador especially, being a stronger than average downhiller (or at least one of the ballsier riders downhill) should be ecstatic at disc brakes being legalised in the peloton.

It's totally bonkers but not new. Back in the late 90's mtb pros were scared that discs would cause a rash of OTB incidents, then CX pros said they were too heavy and too powerful for cross. Now we have roadies crying wolf about everything under the sun. History has a strange way of repeating itself.

This is pathetic. Many riders tested disc brakes and not all liked them. Get over it, who are you to tell what people should ride or like or not (unless you have a vested interest, as I suggested earlier).

I build what people want, requests for rim brake road wheels has been declining through my business for years. If this trend reverses I'm happy to oblige. You're not the first to accuse me of having a "vested interest" in all of this. It's always somebody that can't think past tomorrow. I say disc will eventually get into the PT because history as my witness, you say it won't. So what's next? More whining?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Yeah, Specialized are really pushing disc brakes.

Right, so if they like discs they are paid to say it and if they don't like them they are an expert?

No, but I can't help but notice how the Etixx riders show off their disc brakes at every opportunity. They might still like the brakes but it's obvious the sponsors had a say in it.
I just don't believe they will make a big difference to experienced, skilled pros. And if the pros feel the gains are only marginal, why would they switch when they're fully used to rim brakes and can do everything they want to do with them as well? As DFA posted, these riders have ridden hundreds of thousands of km on those brakes and know exactly how they'll respond. It makes no sense to switch to material you aren't very familiar with if there are no significant gains.

Why don't we just go back to downtube shifters, toe clips, and top off the regression with a leather chamois? Hmmm

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re:

Lol, circle jerk.

Sounds like somebody is feeling a bit insecure. They have drugs for that, just sayin'

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

This is pathetic. Many riders tested disc brakes and not all liked them. Get over it, who are you to tell what people should ride or like or not (unless you have a vested interest, as I suggested earlier).

The point isn't what someone likes or doesn't like, but better brakes give a clear advantage in certain circumstances. In cycling not as much as in motorsports for obvious reasons, but still there's an edge to gain here, and it will be exploited by some riders.

As last a thread on this subject in PRR. The more skilled the rider the less advantage provided by discs. I can't imagine Nibali would benefit too much. And the point many forget is the ultimate limitation in braking isn't with the rim / caliper but with the tyres adhesion to the road (ie, resistance to skidding). Discs are easier to modulate and less likely to lock up. But if you are skilled that difference is minimal. Any half decent rim brake setup can lock the wheels, so ultimate braking distance is set by tyre adhesion, not braking system.

Ah, the tire debate again. Whew, haven't heard that before. This is the problem with the internet, technical analysis based on conjecture. The performance debate died years ago.

Every other new technology in cycling had no downsides.

Remember the introduction of carbon frames and wheels? I wonder how many people got hurt and even went to hospital due to structural failures, which was a big problem for many years. Makes this disc brake debate seem so trivial.

Now we are expected to pay more to lug half a kilo around for the odd occasion where discs might be beneficial. We don't race in the mud or on 20% declines like downhill MTB. I don't mind the UCI legalizing them but I'm not rushing down to "upgrade".

They're not all tanks. Aside from the Specialized Venge ViAS that's been getting so much press (possibly the heaviest bike in the peloton regardless of brake), you should probably know that there are several road disc bikes out there that are pegged right at the UCI limit, some below.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

. I say disc will eventually get into the PT because history as my witness, you say it won't.

What? Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

. I say disc will eventually get into the PT because history as my witness, you say it won't.

What? Don't put words in my mouth.

You mean like:

who are you to tell what people should ride or like or not

Basically you're just here to complain then. Is that right?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

. I say disc will eventually get into the PT because history as my witness, you say it won't.

What? Don't put words in my mouth.

You mean like:

who are you to tell what people should ride or like or not

Basically you're just here to complain then. Is that right?

Yeah, I'm here to complain about the posters who seem to think anyone who doesn't celebrate disc brakes like they are the bestest invention ever is a ludite.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Meanwhile I'm kitting up right now to go for an hour spin on my 2009 Scott Addict R1(rim brakes). Flat course, not racing or going for PR's so the Focus stays home today. JRA and enjoy the sunshine. May I suggest you go for a ride too and clear your head? I promise it will be good for you. Though I'm fully expecting to come back to some more nonsensical blathering here.

 

[thehook]

I can see the advantages of discs in amateur riders (myself). But for the Pro's???? Maybe in a wet Paris Roubaix. On a wet mountain stage with a downhill finish, and being in the breakaway? Probably.

My next bike will probably be disc. (Canyon) And I will probably get away from my beloved tubulars.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Meanwhile I'm kitting up right now to go for an hour spin on my 2009 Scott Addict R1(rim brakes). Flat course, not racing or going for PR's so the Focus stays home today. JRA and enjoy the sunshine. May I suggest you go for a ride too and clear your head? I promise it will be good for you. Though I'm fully expecting to come back to some more nonsensical blathering here.

It's late in the evening and there's snow outside - does that count as nonsensical? :lol:

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I can see the advantages of discs in amateur riders (myself). But for the Pro's????

If a piece of technology has proven to preform better than the one it’s replacing, and for decades now, why would it only be beneficial for amateurs only? Doesn’t seem to be the case in mtb or cx. Asphalt and slick skinnies doesn’t change that outcome either. In both previous instances the general public had access first, so this is where the disc brake conundrum happens with the road traditionalists. Hard to justify that it’s good enough for an uber conservative pro roadie if they didn’t have first crack at it. I’m speaking strictly as a self-deprecating road cyclist who started in this sport at a very young age. I know the mentality but it’s something I never accepted.

Maybe in a wet Paris Roubaix.

Of all the races in the calendar where brake performance matters the least is at Roubiax. The benefit of disc brakes at a race like that is clearance, the ability to run bigger tires and still leave enough room for mud.

On a wet mountain stage with a downhill finish, and being in the breakaway? Probably.

The advantages of these brakes isn’t only in the wet. All weather, all the time.

My next bike will probably be disc. (Canyon) And I will probably get away from my beloved tubulars.

Bravo! I probably would have ended up with one too if they weren’t so slow to come to the US market. No matter the tire system at least you won't be grinding and heating the rim anymore, most importantly the tire/rim interface. As someone who's rolled a tubular mid race due to brake and surface heat, keep on riding tubulars with disc, it only got safer.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Yeah, I'm here to complain about the posters who seem to think anyone who doesn't celebrate disc brakes like they are the bestest invention ever is a ludite.

Roadies are historically the biggest luddites of all. Slowest to adopt change, nothing new there. What was it that one of the GCN boys said recently regarding traditions and change in road cycling? Something like 'trying to make a U-turn with an oil tanker'. :lol:

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

Yeah, I'm here to complain about the posters who seem to think anyone who doesn't celebrate disc brakes like they are the bestest invention ever is a ludite.

Roadies are historically the biggest luddites of all. Slowest to adopt change, nothing new there. What was it that one of the GCN boys said recently regarding traditions and change in road cycling? Something like 'trying to make a U-turn with an oil tanker'. :lol:

I think you just proved Flo right . I've been cycling for over 3 decades now and that means I saw all those advancements such as indexed shifters, integrated shifters, aerobars, steel -> alloy -> carbon frames, 5 to now 11 speed clusters etc. All these advancements I had no problem with. Discs have some advantages but they are much hyped compared to earlier advancements. Late braking on rim brakes is a skill I enjoy mastering. Ultimately it is the tire / road interface that is the limiting factor to braking performance once your skill levels are adequate.

The other thing is disc fans are so sensitive to criticism. Why is that? You question their purchasing decision and they take it personally. IMHO I suspect they are just a little guilty about needing to justify the extra money they paid to bandaid over their skill deficiencies and/or add about $1,000 in extra weight (a very rough estimate of the cost to save that half kilo you just added). Sure Pro bikes usually have ballast added to get them to the UCI limit, but some of us have to pay for our bikes.

Yes I will probably get discs eventually but I am in no hurry.

 

[Tim B]

Re: Re:

Yeah, I'm here to complain about the posters who seem to think anyone who doesn't celebrate disc brakes like they are the bestest invention ever is a ludite.

Roadies are historically the biggest luddites of all. Slowest to adopt change, nothing new there. What was it that one of the GCN boys said recently regarding traditions and change in road cycling? Something like 'trying to make a U-turn with an oil tanker'. :lol:

Late braking on rim brakes is a skill I enjoy mastering. Ultimately it is the tire / road interface that is the limiting factor to braking performance once your skill levels are adequate.

If you enjoy late braking on rim brakes, you will LOVE late braking on discs, can go even deeper. I ride down hills just about as fast as I can manage. Every time I jump back on my rim brake bike (DA 9000 brakes, which are quite frankly superb) and is still my favorite bike, I have to recalibrate my thinking and braking points, usually almost overshoot the first few corners.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Yeah, I'm here to complain about the posters who seem to think anyone who doesn't celebrate disc brakes like they are the bestest invention ever is a ludite.

Roadies are historically the biggest luddites of all. Slowest to adopt change, nothing new there. What was it that one of the GCN boys said recently regarding traditions and change in road cycling? Something like 'trying to make a U-turn with an oil tanker'. :lol:

I think you just proved Flo right . I've been cycling for over 3 decades now and that means I saw all those advancements such as indexed shifters, integrated shifters, aerobars, steel -> alloy -> carbon frames, 5 to now 11 speed clusters etc. All these advancements I had no problem with. Discs have some advantages but they are much hyped compared to earlier advancements. Late braking on rim brakes is a skill I enjoy mastering. Ultimately it is the tire / road interface that is the limiting factor to braking performance once your skill levels are adequate.

The other thing is disc fans are so sensitive to criticism. Why is that? You question their purchasing decision and they take it personally. IMHO I suspect they are just a little guilty about needing to justify the extra money they paid to bandaid over their skill deficiencies and/or add about $1,000 in extra weight (a very rough estimate of the cost to save that half kilo you just added). Sure Pro bikes usually have ballast added to get them to the UCI limit, but some of us have to pay for our bikes.

Yes I will probably get discs eventually but I am in no hurry.

Because the most vocal critics have the least experience with them. I questioned nobody's purchase ever, and If you were paying attention just yesterday I said if rim brakes make a resurgence I would oblige, even went for a spin on the old Scott with rim brakes. Look through the whole thread and the biggest detractors are clearly basing arguments on speculation not experience. We're pretty much in the same boat and was witness to all the same tech when new. I started racing road in 87, cx in 94. Racing disc in cross since 07 and road since 13. Disc brakes are hardly overhyped, it takes less than one ride to figure that out for most. I have yet to hear anybody I deal with on the daily with disc experience that would gladly give them up and go back to rim brakes, any discipline. Make your purchase, get some rides in, then come back here and read this thread. I guarantee you'll have a good laugh.

 

[pastronef]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riders-demand-uci-ban-disc-brakes-until-complete-peloton-trial-is-held/

riders demand disc brakes ban

 

[Tim B]

Regardles of anyone being for or against discs, the UCI are going to turn this into a complete train wreck.