UK General Election

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Are there any Tories on this site. Be interested to hear their voice and how they feel about the massive cuts that are going to happen.

Well if we want to have a decent welfare system etc the first thing we need is a strong economy to pay for it.

Voting conservative is not very cool as it's always more popular to focus on spending money rather than generating or saving it.

At the moment the Uk can't afford to pay for a Labour government, we're still paying for the last one.

Of course what you do not say is that Tories don't want a decent welfare system. "Society doesn't exist."

Business wants what business wants and they've been getting it at the expense of the collective and in the interest of private enterprise since Thatcher. There has been more capital generated over the past 30 years than in the previous decades, but funny how public debt has risen and social services have declined.

So where does all the money go? While I don't see conservative governments as being any less expensive. This is all ideologically driven, nothing more.

 

[Echoes]

Okay, a lesser evil won. If only Cameron could hold his promise on the Euro exit referendum, perhaps it's the first step towards a regained prosperity for the UK AND all Europe.

Long live the real tories. After all some the first outline of social welfare in Europe came from British tories (Disraeli). The left-wing only brought individualism and capitalism throughout the continent and the world.

 

[Netserk]

You should thank them for that. Capitalism is perhaps the single greatest idea mankind has ever had.

 

[SirLes]

Re: Re:

Are there any Tories on this site. Be interested to hear their voice and how they feel about the massive cuts that are going to happen.

Well if we want to have a decent welfare system etc the first thing we need is a strong economy to pay for it.

Voting conservative is not very cool as it's always more popular to focus on spending money rather than generating or saving it.

At the moment the Uk can't afford to pay for a Labour government, we're still paying for the last one.

Of course what you do not say is that Tories don't want a decent welfare system. "Society doesn't exist."

Business wants what business wants and they've been getting it at the expense of the collective and in the interest of private enterprise since Thatcher. There has been more capital generated over the past 30 years than in the previous decades, but funny how public debt has risen and social services have declined.

So where does all the money go? While I don't see conservative governments as being any less expensive. This is all ideologically driven, nothing more.

I've not met anyone who doesn't want a decent welfare system. There can be debates about how to achieve best value for money and what the welfare system should be trying to achieve.

With regards the last thirty years: 12 of those have been under a Tory government 13 under labour (maybe 12.5 each!) and five under the coalition.

When people attack business they seem to ignore the fact that theses business employ people and generate tax revenue either directly from the business or via income tax etc on employees earnings. Plus people's pensions and savings are invested in them.

Without those big nasty multinationals as well as all other business big and small we would have no welfare system.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Are there any Tories on this site. Be interested to hear their voice and how they feel about the massive cuts that are going to happen.

Well if we want to have a decent welfare system etc the first thing we need is a strong economy to pay for it.

Voting conservative is not very cool as it's always more popular to focus on spending money rather than generating or saving it.

At the moment the Uk can't afford to pay for a Labour government, we're still paying for the last one.

Of course what you do not say is that Tories don't want a decent welfare system. "Society doesn't exist."

Business wants what business wants and they've been getting it at the expense of the collective and in the interest of private enterprise since Thatcher. There has been more capital generated over the past 30 years than in the previous decades, but funny how public debt has risen and social services have declined.

So where does all the money go? While I don't see conservative governments as being any less expensive. This is all ideologically driven, nothing more.

I've not met anyone who doesn't want a decent welfare system. There can be debates about how to achieve best value for money and what the welfare system should be trying to achieve.

With regards the last thirty years: 12 of those have been under a Tory government 13 under labour (maybe 12.5 each!) and five under the coalition.

When people attack business they seem to ignore the fact that theses business employ people and generate tax revenue either directly from the business or via income tax etc on employees earnings. Plus people's pensions and savings are invested in them.

Without those big nasty multinationals as well as all other business big and small we would have no welfare system.

Nobody is attacking big business for "creating jobs," although with the system under its current setup more jobs seem to be exported than locally made, with at once much profit being held in off-shore fiscal paradises ... other than creating tax revenue. Don't get me started on pensions invested in that system, because when Wall Street blew up in 2008 many people saw their pensions evaporate in an instant.

No the point is that the conservatives who are always talking about how big nasty government is spending too much on the State, are usually the same ones operating in the interests of those businesses responsible for its fiscal depletion. The same multinationals that export jobs and make the market take priority over citzens, instead of citizens having priority over markets, is the only reason why the enormous capital that is out there is not being directed to where it is most useful.

Of course it is much easier to blame things on government spending, rather than objectively looking for the real causes big business has in bringing the necessary pressure to bear in rigging capitalism in its favor, naturally at the expense of the welfare state.

 

[ray j willings]

Big Business now expect massive margins of profit. They find anyway they can to make it hard for the working man. Look how any multinational operates. You want to complain about something they have done wrong and you have to go through a mind field to get anywhere.
Big business has completely lost touch and don't give a f%%k as long as the profits are big.
Look at the working life now of most people. the days of 9-5 have long gone. People now hardly have time to have a social life. Now advertising a breakfast drink WTF.
Exploitation is rife.
The government is more concerned about some guy who signs on and earns a few extra quid on the side rather than the millions that get lost through big companies exploiting tax loopholes etc.

Thatcher brought this selfish work ethic in to our psyche. Right to buy council homes has turned out to be a disaster. People family's used to have security. Not any more. I live in London and for those that don't own a house its crazy expensive and the poor are gradually having to move out even family's who have generations living in London area. It's a fu%%ing disgrace.

I don't think most people have any idea how the economy works. We should be attacking big business. Its pointless though. What do you think all those tory boys will do when they quit politics ,,,,work for big business that's what.
Cameron or whoever don't really run the country its big money that runs the country and leads policy's.
Lets be honest the brits just roll over and shrug their shoulders and say " nothing we can do"
That's why I hope the SNP do everything they can to F%%k up the policy's of this government for the benefit of the working man or woman.

Welfare system, If Big corporates had their way the would be no welfare system. Look at the means testing.
Its been a Fu%%ing disgrace and the bedroom tax making people move out of their homes that they have lived in for years maybe generations . Osbourne and Cameron and his mates are a bunch of self serving %%%%% and that goes for any party who lick the ar%%% of big business for their own gratification.
The profits being made are massive yet the wealth is never shared.

For the uneducated go and take a look at the history of how exactly the money system works and came into being and you will realise that its all a load of Bullsh%% that keeps the rich rich and everyone else on their knees whenever they want to.

Tell me who do we "uk" owe money to ,,,,,get the picture. Its bollo%%S

 

[Tank Engine]

Also, this is the kind of thing I love about UK general elections that I don't think you see anywhere else in the world

I'll admit "vote on proportional representation" was inaccurate, but often it was presented in that way.

I must admit that I miss the fact that SOME of the crazies who stand for election in the UK actually admit their loonies. Here they often just name parties after themselves, like Komitet Oklaskiwaczy Rewelacyjnego Wodza Imperatora Naszego (KORWIN -the committee for applauding our Emperor and Outstanding Leader) and some other parties just follow the idea of this name (which is admittedly false, although the acronym is real).

As for the powerful of the world. Stiglitz points out that around 1980 in the states Directors earned on average 34 times more than a normal worker, now its 220 times more. They argue that the market rules mean that they have to be paid more, while keeping workers' wages down and its not just the Tories that accept that.

 

[rhubroma]

Also, this is the kind of thing I love about UK general elections that I don't think you see anywhere else in the world

I'll admit "vote on proportional representation" was inaccurate, but often it was presented in that way.

I must admit that I miss the fact that SOME of the crazies who stand for election in the UK actually admit their loonies. Here they often just name parties after themselves, like Komitet Oklaskiwania Rewelacyjnego Wodza Imperatora Naszego (KORWIN -the committee for applauding our Emperor and Outstanding Leader) and some other parties just follow the idea of this name (which is admittedly false, although the acronym is real).

As for the powerful of the world. Stiglitz points out that around 1980 in the states Directors earned on average 34 times more than a normal worker, now its 220 times more. They argue that the market rules mean that they have to be paid more, while keeping workers' wages down and its not just the Tories that accept that.

The problem, however, is that the famous "market rules" were not sent down from up high, but carved in stone by the same corporate entities and thier minions the politicians that have stood the most to benefit from them.

It is obscene that a CEO earns about 200 times more than in 1980, while the middle class is generally struggling, when not poorer.

People were wondering why Nepal wasn't able to build structures up to the sismic standards of the developed world, as if that were hard to tell. Money. Well under the current market rules, Nepal will never have the money to build more earthquake resistent buildings. Not in a million years. Therein lies the true scandal.

The extent to which the liberal parties have not been able to resist the business appetites, is merely indicative of how much the markets, not intended as concrete sectors for creating a generalized prosperity, but as self contained treasure chests in which the business elite confirms its own privilges and status, have been successful in beating labor into total submission.

 

[ray j willings]

glittering prizes and endless compromises
Shatter the illusion of integrity

 

[Echoes]

Those left-wingers?

Tories operate in favour of big business? Sure. And Labour is operating in favour of small business, sure !! Or what? For the caryatid? For jobless people? Are you kidding me or what? And Lib-Dems? These are the Whigs, actually, aren't they?

When Labour was in power they also cut spendings. As a matter of fact, that's the EU commission's policy. 10 Downing Street is just occupied by Gauleiters of the land Britain. It's part of the European Broad economic policy guidelines (BEPG). The UK government & paliament are just translating Euro directives into national laws. Which means that whatever the party in power, they are interchangeable.

The slight hope for the British working class [or workless class] comes from Cameron's promise to a referendum to exit the EU. Is he gonna keep it or not? I'm not optimistic because he could have done it in his first term but let's see. I think it's what made him win. And it could be great for the us Continental Euros too. Labour has nothing to offer to the common men. Nothing. They are pro-EU, through & through. Actually, the Left in any country is the enemy of the people and Britain's case is more emblematic of this than anywhere else. Left-wingers should ask themselves why they lost the elections I think.



Oh and finally, SNP working for the benefit of working men and women? ...

 

[Netserk]

If I wanted jobs, growth and wealth I'd be pro-EU as well. You really can't fault Labour for that.

 

[rhubroma]

Those left-wingers?

Tories operate in favour of big business? Sure. And Labour is operating in favour of small business, sure !! Or what? For the caryatid? For jobless people? Are you kidding me or what? And Lib-Dems? These are the Whigs, actually, aren't they?

When Labour was in power they also cut spendings. As a matter of fact, that's the EU commission's policy. 10 Downing Street is just occupied by Gauleiters of the land Britain. It's part of the European Broad economic policy guidelines (BEPG). The UK government & paliament are just translating Euro directives into national laws. Which means that whatever the party in power, they are interchangeable.

The slight hope for the British working class [or workless class] comes from Cameron's promise to a referendum to exit the EU. Is he gonna keep it or not? I'm not optimistic because he could have done it in his first term but let's see. I think it's what made him win. And it could be great for the us Continental Euros too. Labour has nothing to offer to the common men. Nothing. They are pro-EU, through & through. Actually, the Left in any country is the enemy of the people and Britain's case is more emblematic of this than anywhere else. Left-wingers should ask themselves why they lost the elections I think.



Oh and finally, SNP working for the benefit of working men and women? ...

The right being good for the working class is like saying wolves are good for lambs. Of course you omit that Thatcher literally waged war against workers and their union leverage, all in the name of so called free market capitalism, the same economy that has given rise to the technocrats in the EU parliament and its central banking authority. In compensation, she tried to galvanize workers be encouraging them to earn more through private enterprise and privatization. In the short term some did make a killing, but nowhere else since except in the US have the disastrous results been so ubiquitously shattering.

Sure let us bring history back to the time when Europe was fragmented and "pure." Yours is a nationalism that is colored with a fascist perspective, however, no more, as per your sect. Yet the anti-EU movements among the right today have become as irrelevant as the genuine left, the moment the centrist parties bring things back to the common conservative domain. Fear of the unknown, after all, kills even the best laid plans of mice and men.

The problem with labor and the left in general is that it has made too many concessions to be faithful to its calling, while the moment a real left wing policy is attempted then the votes at the booths are absent. Capitalism has scored its biggest victory on this account. At any rate for the EU to work for all citizens, state sovereignty needs to be mitigated in favor of some collective interest, though I don't see this as possible the moment the reactionaries and, in particular, the reactioanry right wants nothing to do with it. Then the EU needs to become a real civic, not just economic and trade, union, for which it only has technocrats and no real political soul.

 

[ray j willings]

Those left-wingers?

Tories operate in favour of big business? Sure. And Labour is operating in favour of small business, sure !! Or what? For the caryatid? For jobless people? Are you kidding me or what? And Lib-Dems? These are the Whigs, actually, aren't they?

When Labour was in power they also cut spendings. As a matter of fact, that's the EU commission's policy. 10 Downing Street is just occupied by Gauleiters of the land Britain. It's part of the European Broad economic policy guidelines (BEPG). The UK government & paliament are just translating Euro directives into national laws. Which means that whatever the party in power, they are interchangeable.

The slight hope for the British working class [or workless class] comes from Cameron's promise to a referendum to exit the EU. Is he gonna keep it or not? I'm not optimistic because he could have done it in his first term but let's see. I think it's what made him win. And it could be great for the us Continental Euros too. Labour has nothing to offer to the common men. Nothing. They are pro-EU, through & through. Actually, the Left in any country is the enemy of the people and Britain's case is more emblematic of this than anywhere else. Left-wingers should ask themselves why they lost the elections I think.



Oh and finally, SNP working for the benefit of working men and women? ...

Can you explain exactly who you are talking about "The slight hope for the British working class [or workless class] "

You don't seem to have an idea of the possible Impact on Business [small business] that pulling out of Europe could have.
I think a restructure of Europe is what is needed. Its far to large and has far to many country's to cope with.
We need a much more stable Euro that has even worth across the board.
I just don't see that happening though.

Labour were doing fine until we pretended that there were WMD in Iraq. Then we spent billions on a war against who ? and with what consequences so far? Blair turned in to Bush's *** right in front of our eye's.

 

[Swifty's Cakes]

Re: Re:

Are there any Tories on this site. Be interested to hear their voice and how they feel about the massive cuts that are going to happen.

Well if we want to have a decent welfare system etc the first thing we need is a strong economy to pay for it.

Voting conservative is not very cool as it's always more popular to focus on spending money rather than generating or saving it.

At the moment the Uk can't afford to pay for a Labour government, we're still paying for the last one.

It wasn't the Labour government that caused the economic crisis though, they just found themselves in a global economic crisis.

The question is does further austerity really work or will it actually kill economic growth?

The problem was that's despite a number of years of strong economic growth the Labour Party had been overspending so the deficit was already very large prior to the global financial crisis.that meant we were not only hit harder but could not also could not pay their way out of a recession (ie the Keynesian way).

The Labour Party inherited the strongest economic position of any recent government. They won because of the ERM mess and the fact that the Conservatives were so busy fightng themselves that they were incapable of organising the proverbial p@ss up in a brewery let alone running the country. Even so Tony Blair wisely promised to stick to Conservative spending plans in their first term just to be on the safe side. Shame they didn't stick to that later on.

Am I a fan of austerity? No. Would I like us to spend more on lots of things? Yes. However we can't afford it.

From 1992 to 1997 the budget deficit was higher as a % of GDP than from 1997 to 2007 and the start of global crisis. In absolute terms the Tories has added £215 Billion to the national debt in those 5 years alone and only operated a surplus for 2 of their 18 years in power so to claim Labour inherited a strong position is stretching it.

 

[Echoes]

Sure let us bring history back to the time when Europe was fragmented and "pure." Yours is a nationalism that is colored with a fascist perspective,

You are really demagogical, old and over the heels.

You can't even read a historical map correctly. So in 1942:

Fragmented and "pure", the Fascist Europe? I call this an integrated Hitlerian "European Union".

In 1941 The French collabos organized an exhibition where those maps could be seen:

On the left, the fragmented Europe of old democracies. On the right, the new socialist Hitlerian "European Union", where we had a big market, which we relocated the industry to low cost countries, etc etc.

You are the Fascist. I'm the democrat.

The Left never made any concession of any kind. The Left is the ideology of capitalism right from the start. The Left is the ideology of merchants and industrialists, and bankers too. The Right is the landowners. The caryatid had better ally with the Right. The Left is too ruthless. The wolf is Left, the lamb is Right.

 

[rhubroma]

Sure let us bring history back to the time when Europe was fragmented and "pure." Yours is a nationalism that is colored with a fascist perspective,

You are really demagogical, old and over the heels.

You can't even read a historical map correctly. So in 1942:

Fragmented and "pure", the Fascist Europe? I call this an integrated Hitlerian "European Union".

In 1941 The French collabos organized an exhibition where those maps could be seen:

On the left, the fragmented Europe of old democracies. On the right, the new socialist Hitlerian "European Union", where we had a big market, which we relocated the industry to low cost countries, etc etc.

You are the Fascist. I'm the democrat.

The Left never made any concession of any kind. The Left is the ideology of capitalism right from the start. The Left is the ideology of merchants and industrialists, and bankers too. The Right is the landowners. The caryatid had better ally with the Right. The Left is too ruthless. The wolf is Left, the lamb is Right.

I wasn't refering to "historical maps" moron, which have always fluctuated, but a concept of national identity that fascists like yourself hold as some kind of enshrined cosmological precept.

Your dream is a pre-Vatican II Catholic France, which lives only according to the traditions of pre-Vatican II Catholicism. Good look with that. Whereas your economic-political analysis is forged in the same crucible of wanting to turn history back to a time when aristocracy ruled, in which the ecclesiastical princes enjoyed a similar status to their secular counterparts. Again, good luck with that!

As per the issue of capitalism's triumph over social democracy in regards to the right's victory in Britain, what this boils down to is the multinationals being given the same status as national states, and the pressure they have brought to bear on the political establishment is the same as that of Cina, the USA or Russia. But when we live in a world, not of citizens, but consumers, the rest was a foregone conclusion, even if most citizens are hardly aware of this, but should be informed.

The great corporations render a formidable legislative role, of the same caliber of the democratic parliaments. And they by now sustain that the citizen's status is of less importance to people's lives, than that of being consumers. Consequently if say the US Congress or EU Parliament, with their 300 and 500 million citizens, make important decisions, the great corporations with their hundreds of millions of consumers should have the same right to intervene on such capital issues. The new US-Europe trade agreement, for example, comprises large openings in this sense.

If the parliamentaries are elected by citizens, the great multinational name brands are "elected" by billions of clients. If the states know very poorly their citizens, the multinationals through "big data" know very well their consumers and they have made a profile of each one of them.

The multinationals also have their reform pachages that they believe will modernize the world, with lot's of big ideas. To start with GMOs should be grown everywhere, every organism can be patented for commercial reasons (not just scientific). Everything, at once, should be privatized starting with water, which for them is an optimal solution for eliminating public debt. The centrist parties have allowed this corporatocracy to take over, while the center right has come to incarnate unregulated, corporate and free market finacial capitalism at the expense of welfare.

Suggesting that the big land owners of centuries ago were somehow less culpable than the robber barrons of pre-revolutionary capitalism is absurd.