USADA-Armstrong Phase II

[ManInFull]

If its the same ten people who we have heard about, and whom numerous witnesses have ALREADY contradicted ... then yes.

You act like no one has disagreed, that there are no records, that contradict Betsy Andreau story.

You act like there are no test that confirm Lance's side of the story, rather than the accusers who know exactly what Lance was taking and when ...

What about Hamilton's or Lands' statements about their experiences with Lance? They sound extremely credible and the only response from Lance's camp has been that we should not be believe those two because they have lied in the past. While we both know that's not really a valid argument, it's been successful with the Believers.

 

[MacRoadie]

Can't read it. Got my head stuck in Melville trying to understand your literary references.

It's ok. His head is stuck somewhere else. Trying to read while peering out through Lance's belly button can be challenging...

 

[jackwolf]

I am not aware of any prior case where UCI has argued the penalties issued by a national anti-doping body were too lenient so this would be a first.
.

You must mean too harsh, right?

 

[Benotti69]

For the 9 years he was racing TdF (1999-2005, 2009-2010) a total of 500 tests calculates to 56 tests per annum or more than 1 per week.

Factor in that OOC testing would only apply, at the most, to 3 of those years poor old Lance must have been having multiple tests per week.

He must have felt like a pin cushion!

There were never 500 tests.

It was calculated to 280+

 

[Stingray34]

It's ok. His head is stuck somewhere else. Trying to read while peering out through Lance's belly button can be challenging...

It's all those shirtless pics, I tell ya. A man who spends all that time at sea...well, all I can say is I understand.

 

[Velodude]

Which is odd, especially in the later portion, when they apparently knew exactly what, when, and how he was doing drugs, and which drugs, but could never seem to produce a test that confirmed such specific knowlegde?

Suggest you acquaint yourself with the recent independent reports of how Armstrong was exclusively given a heads up of impending tests so he could make the necessary preparations.

I mean AC gets busted for a minute trace of Clen ... but Lance, whom we know EVERYTHING about (and why are we letting him get away with this!) we cannot find even a trace of the drugs that we KNOW are there?

AC is not a multi millionaire with a track record of bribing cycling officials and their organization.

Sometimes, when you test a hypothesis, even opne that onvolves grand conspiracy, and the test comes back negative ... it just means that the hypothesis is wrong.

Conspiracies only succeed when the participants are limited in number. This is a grand conspiracy on the numbers that were required to be involved. That is now proving to be its underlying weakness.

 

[Velodude]

There were never 500 tests.

It was calculated to 280+

I believe it was calculated to be 236.

I was just demonstrating the absurdity of the Armstrong spin.

 

[Tubeless]

You must mean too harsh, right?

Correct - will edit the post.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

If its the same ten people who we have heard about, and whom numerous witnesses have ALREADY contradicted ... then yes.

You act like no one has disagreed, that there are no records, that contradict Betsy Andreau story.

You act like there are no test that confirm Lance's side of the story, rather than the accusers who know exactly what Lance was taking and when ...

You act like there was not just a recently dismissed criminal probe.

You act like there are not two sides to this question and that people are innocent until actually proven guilty.

Whether Lance actually doped are not? Few of us will ever actually know. But when we create processes used specifically to get LA, those processes don't just go away afterwards. If LA goes by this process, that the process is validated.

And, wouldn't you know it, Brad Wiggins is already facing the same kind accusations that LA did when he won his first TdF.

A process that allows the inquisition of anyone who is successul in cycling is wrong - for many, many reasons.

Those who want to get Lance would do better to actually produce evidence rather than the rumor thereof. Because in civilized places, is evidence and not whispers that convict people.

Is this another reference to the fact that you think that David Walsh, Paul Kimmage and Mr D Pound where going to be summoned by USADA to give eye witness accounts that give evidence of Armstrong doping?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If its the same ten people who we have heard about, and whom numerous witnesses have ALREADY contradicted ... then yes.

You act like no one has disagreed, that there are no records, that contradict Betsy Andreau story.

You act like there are no test that confirm Lance's side of the story, rather than the accusers who know exactly what Lance was taking and when ...

You act like there was not just a recently dismissed criminal probe.

You act like there are not two sides to this question and that people are innocent until actually proven guilty.

Whether Lance actually doped are not? Few of us will ever actually know. But when we create processes used specifically to get LA, those processes don't just go away afterwards. If LA goes by this process, that the process is validated.

And, wouldn't you know it, Brad Wiggins is already facing the same kind accusations that LA did when he won his first TdF.

A process that allows the inquisition of anyone who is successul in cycling is wrong - for many, many reasons.

Those who want to get Lance would do better to actually produce evidence rather than the rumor thereof. Because in civilized places, is evidence and not whispers that convict people.

Hi Gree.
I already posted the relevant section from USADA (you went silent) - they were not the same "10 people"....
So, your answer is no.
You're welcome.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I have added a comment on this to notify them.

Perhaps other could as well.

Dave.

Oh man this is funny. You guys admitted to TROLLING the Washington Post! LMAO
Hey Dave I read your comment on the comment section. There are some interesting comments in there.

 

[avanti]

It appears to me USADA is softening its position by maybe offering a compromise.
The latest comments from the USADA might permit UCI/ASO to allow LA to keep at least 5 titles.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-armstrong-could-have-retained-five-tour-wins

 

[thehog]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/cultur...rong-demonstrates-the-risks-of-having-heroes/


We are right to have heroes, because it is right to admire and even revere those who can do things of which we ourselves are incapable. But it is absurd to demand that outside the particular sphere in which they excel, they should be paragons of spotless virtue. And we should accept, reluctantly, that even in their sport. some will behave stupidly, badly, dishonestly.

 

[Benotti69]

I believe it was calculated to be 236.

I was just demonstrating the absurdity of the Armstrong spin.

thanks for the correction. there is a thread here on it.

 

[COMO CYCO]

Newsweek

If you've not seen the worst piece of so-called "journalism" I have ever seen, it's worth a peek. This is what the general American public is seeing on the newstands this week thanks to Newsweek and Buzz Bissinger.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...singer-still-believes-in-lance-armstrong.html

 

[D-Queued]

Oh man this is funny. You guys admitted to TROLLING the Washington Post! LMAO
Hey Dave I read your comment on the comment section. There are some interesting comments in there.

I am not trolling.

But, based upon my two votes (statistically irrelevant) I have contaminated their result and admitted it.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

If you've not seen the worst piece of so-called "journalism" I have ever seen, it's worth a peek. This is what the general American public is seeing on the newstands this week thanks to Newsweek and Buzz Bissinger.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...singer-still-believes-in-lance-armstrong.html

Did he use enhancers? Maybe I am the one who is blind, but I take him at his word and don’t believe it; he still passed hundreds of drug tests, many of them given randomly. But even if he did take enhancers, so what?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It appears to me USADA is softening its position by maybe offering a compromise.
The latest comments from the USADA might permit UCI/ASO to allow LA to keep at least 5 titles.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-armstrong-could-have-retained-five-tour-wins

No, they always had the same position.
If LA was truthful then he may have got to keep some titles - I doubt the UCI will request LA to co-operate as that would mean outing their involvement in the deceit.

 

[thehog]

If you've not seen the worst piece of so-called "journalism" I have ever seen, it's worth a peek. This is what the general American public is seeing on the newstands this week thanks to Newsweek and Buzz Bissinger.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...singer-still-believes-in-lance-armstrong.html

Actually the comments (which I never read!) are very good. Well worth reading.

"Buzz, Lance was my son's hero too. He dressed like him for Halloween, had posters all over his wall. But by the age of 12 (he's now 17) he took them all down and wrote Lance off as a cheater. Sometimes kids can see through the BS before we can. A few years later we just stopped watching the tour because all the doping has forever tainted the sport. Anyone who has watched the tough competitiveness of Lance over the years would never believe that he would give up on fighting the charges if he never doped. Yes, his foundation has done wonderful things...if the long term impact is that it loses money after the initial support last week, then it is on Lance and no one else. The best thing he can do now is to come clean and help to clean up the sport before it is ruined forever. He is no hero if kids think they need to dope to win. Sadly, there is hardly anyone to turn the medals over to, since everyone around him was doping too"

 

[QuickStepper]

Neither of them holds any type of license with the UCI unlike Bruyneel as a DS, or Armstrong as a rider. I'm not sure the same process would apply. It also makes it difficult to sanction someone who doesn't hold a license because there's nothing to withhold. The best case is that the governing body (UCI) would issue instructions that certain types of association or collaboration with these people would result in a sanction for license holders. Does it need a "reasoned decision" before taking that action? Is the UCI obligated to take any action? Hard to say.

John Swanson

John, I hope I'm reading your comments correctly and getting the gist of what you're saying. If not, I apologize in advance. But that said, both the WADA Code and the USADA Protocols have separate sections on investigations, hearings, and sanctions that may be imposed on what (if I recall the term correctly) "athlete support" personnel. That includes people like trainers, doctors, etc. I can't take the time at the moment to confirm the actual term used to describe such folks, but if I recall, it's , but I think the rules regarding when USADA has to render its "reasoned decision" is the same for both athletes and athlete support people like Del Moral, Ferrari, etc.

Maybe because this case was brought as a consolidated charge against all LA and the others, USADA is going to render a consolidated "reasoned decision" as to those who have chosen not to contest the matter in arbitration.

With regard to the sanction against the non-athletes, I think what you describe is exactly what UCI and other federations, NGB's and the IOC do, that is they issue a publshed ban against the non-athlete support person and if any licensees deal with such persons in their sport, they are also subject themselves to discipline and sanction. The sanction is, I think, ultimately published on a WADA list and any sport that is part of the Olympic movement is bound to follow the sanction as well and keep the banned person from doing anything with its athletes. Someone else earlier posted a link to an article noting that del Moral (or maybe Ferrari?) is now also prohibited from working with athletes in other sports such as tennis.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

If you've not seen the worst piece of so-called "journalism" I have ever seen, it's worth a peek. This is what the general American public is seeing on the newstands this week thanks to Newsweek and Buzz Bissinger.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...singer-still-believes-in-lance-armstrong.html

I guess the folks at Newsweek better prepare for the Trolling and attacks from the folks here.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I am not trolling.

But, based upon my two votes (statistically irrelevant) I have contaminated their result and admitted it.

Dave.

Nope what you done was Troll according to the definition used here. Sorry I had to be the one to point it out to you.


Anyhow nice play on the results, even with your 2 votes and the other guys 5 votes it is still leaning in another direction. Why is that? All the bots out there? Is that the explanation? Nope in my opinion it is because only small portions of the people who either read or get linked into the article are not cycling fans. They are just normal folks who follow LA and are not fans of cycling. They may say they like cycling but truth be told they only like LA and his side of cycling.

Cycling fans that were around trying to find tickers for the TDF and trying to read sites like Daily Peloton and Cycling News pre LA are the minority.

 

[Benotti69]

Actually the comments (which I never read!) are very good. Well worth reading.

"Buzz, Lance was my son's hero too. He dressed like him for Halloween, had posters all over his wall. But by the age of 12 (he's now 17) he took them all down and wrote Lance off as a cheater. Sometimes kids can see through the BS before we can. A few years later we just stopped watching the tour because all the doping has forever tainted the sport. Anyone who has watched the tough competitiveness of Lance over the years would never believe that he would give up on fighting the charges if he never doped. Yes, his foundation has done wonderful things...if the long term impact is that it loses money after the initial support last week, then it is on Lance and no one else. The best thing he can do now is to come clean and help to clean up the sport before it is ruined forever. He is no hero if kids think they need to dope to win. Sadly, there is hardly anyone to turn the medals over to, since everyone around him was doping too"

TeamlieStrong minions wont get their rations tonight for missing this one or maybe they only target the negative articles and blogs.

Quick gree, let loose your lancelove.......

 

[Benotti69]

2 Armstrong's made the news recently.

1 went to the moon and back, stayed out of the limelight and lived a humble life.

The other cheated his to 7TdF wins and used it to enrich himself and bully those who talked honestly about how he won.

I think 1 should be renamed Gunderson.

 

[COMO CYCO]

I guess the folks at Newsweek better prepare for the Trolling and attacks from the folks here.

Guilty as charged - no escaping it with me and the Newsweek article. I read it and was incensed so threw down multiple times in the comment section. I usually try to avoid getting drawn into petty arguments in the comment section - but maybe I shouldn't. I mean - if journalists are going to flood the media with uneducated, factless, pro-Lance propaganda, maybe we are doing everyone a service by refuting these articles respectfully with facts - and then referencing those facts. I'm a newb and all - but maybe the Clinic can make an impact through educating the public on this stuff - and not just one another. We have the evidence - why not use it?