USADA-Armstrong Phase II

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

Wonderboy today:



http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8302307/needs-cry-me

it must be a huge relief to finally not have to deal with this anymore. it's been clear for a long time that all he wants to do is ride his bike and do the charity work. the only reason it went to Sparks was because USADA went over all 7. the stress of the last few years must have been incredibly intense. that he wants to ride his bike at all after weeks of being locked in a room with lawyers is impressive - he truly loves the sport, and doesn't care about being beaten by no name cyclists as he has been many times since he retired. this doesn't fit with the ego maniac bully that has to win at all costs. it's interesting, is it not? i always thought of armstrong as the classic type of rider that would never touch a bike again after he retired, as lemond and many others did for years after they retired. love him or hate him, he is one of a kind.

 

[Epicycle]

The problems, I think, are structural. Hein, and especially Pat, are just figureheads.

No, Hein is definitely the problem. He's been running the UCI for 21 years, it's been built in his image. All of this with Lance and any UCI favoritism starts with him.

 

[BroDeal]

it must be a huge relief to finally not have to deal with this anymore.

He won't get any relief. The issue will hang over him like a stink cloud as long as he continues to lie about it. Punking out on the fight against the USADA makes it worse.

 

[Rainfox]

Sponsors have issued comments.

Nike is sticking by Lance.

Michelob is.

Trek, obviously.

The world is leaning to supporting Armstrong.

As I said.. EVERYONE LOSES HERE.

Also, faulting Lance that he didn't go to arbitration so the evidence could be provided is mindboggling to me. Why not put the evidence OUT there. What's the risk? If these 10 individuals were promised sweet deals, money and their careers (what was left of them anyway) intact if they spoke, it makes no difference. You could put it OUT THERE.. what they were willing to say on record.

Also, no blood and urine samples included. Really? Come on now!

Hitchens (rest in peace) would have had a field day here. Yes, Lance doped (who ever doubted) but what a clusterf**k USADA has made here. It was First and Goal and you were up by 3.. you fumble, and LA goes down the field and ties with a field goal.

Sad.

 

[neineinei]

Everyone loses.

Armstrong, USADA, UCI, the fans, the critics, the sport of cycling.

Only by having the EVIDENCE out in the clear for everyone to see, is this thing over. Lance is receiving more support than I could ever imagine after his annonucement... and this is in Denmark, a cycling nation if any, home of Riis, Skibby and Holm - all confessed dopers - and ofcourse Soerensen (who moved to Italy when he was 17) who is still in denial and part of the omerta. That's an Italian thing, is it not? Pantani almost broke and then killed himself instead.

Everyone loses. Armstrong has been a personal inspiration to me (getting fit, living healthy) and as a lighthouse after losing several family members to cancer and recently having my mother encounter the disease (and win this first round), but I always knew he was on more than crackers and orange juice. I mean, really?

But everyone loses here. Livestrong lives on and that is important and good, but Lance Armstrong the rider and athlete gets away now.. when USADA could have cornered him and hung the dirty laundry OUT there to begin with.

Why not? Travis... is it coming? It better be.

This is not good enough.


PS: Indurain just came out in support of Lance. That I didn't see coming. Merckx, sure, but Indu? Wow. Again, he's not falling as deep as one would expect here...

The evidence is coming. And a lot of people will feel like idiots for being duped by Armstrong and having defended him. And a lot will still deny that there is any evidence and repeat witch hunt, witch hunt till there is no more breath in them.

I'm sorry to say this, but if there is any country I know of which is likely to buy the "I used no unfair advantage during my career" defense it is Denmark. Because, like you said, so many Danish cyclists have admitted to doping, or been caught, and forgiven. It is easy for Danish cycling fans to belive that everybody doped and that the playing field was level, because they know that every cyclist they have heard of was doped. Never mind those they didn't hear of.

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...es-after-refusing-to-defend-drug-charges.html

The reputation of Lance Armstrong, the most successful cyclist in history and a role model to millions for the way he overcame cancer, lay in tatters on Friday night as he was stripped of his seven Tour de France victories by United States anti-doping officials

In the highest profile humiliation of a sporting icon over drugs..

 

[dadane]

Thanks for the updates Freddy.

Which is exactly where I was with the UK media. I was about to write that we did not have a "dog in the race" but the BBC unwittingly introduced one and then recoiled when it barked.

So, nothing surprising there then! The BBC will be more concerned about it's own image and how much reputational damage will be done if it then transpires that they picked the wrong horse. If in doubt, especially when the subject matter is not really in their field of expertise, tow the establishment line.

Given that they are dealing with a case involving someone who, until now, seemed to be packing a limitless supply of Get Out of Jail Free cards, it is to be expected.

It takes time to reverse a supertanker but when it does turn it will be equally hard to stop in the other direction.

Unfortunately, outside the UK, the BBC is pretty much all you get. What is the commentary like on the independents (e.g. TalkSport)?

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...es-after-refusing-to-defend-drug-charges.html

it's a bad days headlines for sure, but the difference between the likes of armstrong and marion jones are many. clued in fans of the sport did not support jones, whereas most cyclist fans do. and to outsiders, the level of success he enjoyed and the difficult nature of the sport, plus his charity work and his personal story and intelligence, make him a much more attractive figure.

but even marion jones was CNN's olympic pundit this year. wonderboy, as some call him, will always have a place.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Sponsors have issued comments.

Nike is sticking by Lance.

Michelob is.

Trek, obviously.

The world is leaning to supporting Armstrong.

As I said.. EVERYONE LOSES HERE.

Also, faulting Lance that he didn't go to arbitration so the evidence could be provided is mindboggling to me. Why not put the evidence OUT there. What's the risk? If these 10 individuals were promised sweet deals, money and their careers (what was left of them anyway) intact if they spoke, it makes no difference. You could put it OUT THERE.. what they were willing to say on record.

Also, no blood and urine samples included. Really? Come on now!

Hitchens (rest in peace) would have had a field day here. Yes, Lance doped (who ever doubted) but what a clusterf**k USADA has made here. It was First and Goal and you were up by 3.. you fumble, and LA goes down the field and ties with a field goal.

Sad.

The sponsor response is standard boiler plate. That will change as evidence compels them to distance themselves, maybe even reverse their position. They will move only as they need to here, but rest assured this is a PR disaster for all of them and they are all ready for the ****estorm.

As for the rest of the post, I am sure Tygart has this tighter than tight. The evidence will convince the people who are open-minded to questioning the myth.

 

[Rainfox]

Neineinei... don't be sorry. Be mad!

And I agree with you by the way. Sort of.

Oakley announced they are sticking by Lance also now.

I mean.. Travis.. get IT out there...

On a personal level, if Livestrong implodes, that's where I draw the line. Also, the whole rebuke/comment about "there are many cancer charities out there, don't support Livestrong since Lance cheated" is really also very dumb.

Not pointing fingers at anyone here, it's just so obvious how Livestrong trancends and goes beyond your regular charity... Young and old people, youth culture, pop culture, sports and recreation on a global level.. the yellow wristband made cancer "touchable".... talkable. Made it real. Made people DEAL with it.

Hate Lance all you want (again, who ever doubted?), but if hatred for a psychopath shoots down an international, universal cancer charity that inspires on so many levels... that would just be dumb.

 

[Pazuzu]

but even marion jones was CNN's olympic pundit this year. wonderboy, as some call him, will always have a place.

Of course Jones has admitted to her use of PEDs whereas Armstrong hasn't. His continued denial of PED use and his attacks on USADA are a slap in the face to sports fans who want clean competion.

To hell with him!

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

Of course Jones has admitted to her use of PEDs whereas Armstrong hasn't. His continued denial of PED use and his attacks on USADA are a slap in the face to sports fans who want clean competion.

To hell with him!

she has not. she admitted to lying to the federal inquiry about taking what she thought was vitamins. she has never admitted to intentionally taking PEDs.

 

[gree0232]

The sponsor response is standard boiler plate. That will change as evidence compels them to distance themselves, maybe even reverse their position. They will move only as they need to here, but rest assured this is a PR disaster for all of them and they are all ready for the ****estorm.

As for the rest of the post, I am sure Tygart has this tighter than tight. The evidence will convince the people who are open-minded to questioning the myth.

Assuming that there is anything in the 'evidence' that we have not already seen for the past 17 years.

Lets see if we can figure out who the 'witnesses' are shall we?

#1 - Frank Andreau.

#2 - Betsy Andreau.

#3 - Greg LeMond.

#4 - Tyler Hamilton.

#5 - Floyd Landis.

#6 - **** Pound.

#7 - Paul Kimmage.

#8 - David Walsh.

#9 - Mike Anderson.

#10 - Flillipo Simeoni.

Hmmm ... clearly all these witnesses are in danger of being ... murderered or silenced like they have been for the previous ... 17 years.

Perhaps the real reason that the list of names was not released has little to do with ... the possibility that a steroid enarged LA might hunt them down and permenantly silence them ... than to the fact that this is just a rehash of what we have heard for ... 17 years now.

Be interesting to see the evidence, if we can get past the ... delays.

 

[Benotti69]

fanboy babble. wonderboy, as some call him, will always have a place.

even Charles Manson still gets fan mail, so yeah there is hope that he will always be liked, but i think mental instutions only permit the inmates to write with crayons

 

[MarkvW]

Neineinei... don't be sorry. Be mad!

And I agree with you by the way. Sort of.

Oakley announced they are sticking by Lance also now.

I mean.. Travis.. get IT out there...

On a personal level, if Livestrong implodes, that's where I draw the line. Also, the whole rebuke/comment about "there are many cancer charities out there, don't support Livestrong since Lance cheated" is really also very dumb.

Not pointing fingers at anyone here, it's just so obvious how Livestrong trancends and goes beyond your regular charity... Young and old people, youth culture, pop culture, sports and recreation on a global level.. the yellow wristband made cancer "touchable".... talkable. Made it real. Made people DEAL with it.

Hate Lance all you want (again, who ever doubted?), but if hatred for a psychopath shoots down an international, universal cancer charity that inspires on so many levels... that would just be dumb.

Not to mention the way that his charitable foundation works to Lance's financial advantage! Build the LiveStrong brand through the Foundation and profit from the brand through his other entities.

 

[86TDFWinner]

It gets worse, he actually claims he's "at peace" w/what happened. Love his friends response: "it's just a bunch of beaurocrats causing trouble"...Umm no son, it's ISN'T:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/armstrong-takes-part-bike-race-154833370--spt.html

 

[Benotti69]

Assuming that there is anything in the 'evidence' that we have not already seen for the past 17 years.

<snip>

Perhaps the real reason that the list of names was not released has little to do with ... the possibility that a steroid enarged LA might hunt them down and permenantly silence them ... than to the fact that this is just a rehash of what we have heard for ... 17 years now.

Be interesting to see the evidence, if we can get past the ... delays.

Relax. have another michelbub extra. it is all coming. Not that Wonderboy wants anyone to hear it

UCI are no longer in control of this, that is the difference. USADA were never corrupted by wonderboy.

He owns USAC, USOC and UCI. He forgot to buy USADA. Too many late nights in the Yellow Rose makes the morning hazy and he forgot to write the cheque

 

[DirtyWorks]

the yellow wristband made cancer "touchable".... talkable. Made it real. Made people DEAL with it.

Hate Lance all you want (again, who ever doubted?), but if hatred for a psychopath shoots down an international, universal cancer charity that inspires on so many levels... that would just be dumb.

The problem for some is not the mission, the problem is where does the non-profit mission begin and the for-profit agenda end. They remain so tightly bound there are obvious issues. For some, "awareness" isn't much of a mission as seeing someone progress to their end with a cancer makes one pretty "aware."

And then there's the possibility that Wonderboy's over-the-top doping was a contributing factor to the disease occurrence. And then there's the hiding behind the vague mission in order to protect himself from criticism, because if you criticize, you love cancer.

It's not what you want it to be.

 

[jonny testaronny]

Jensie talks; this is the kind of things we need riders to say

Voigt said a clear conscience is also the reward for avoiding the "short cuts" that lead to doping allegations and busts.

"[Thursday] I had to go to doping control after my stage win," he said. "And I know that even if they freeze it for 100 years and tested it with new methods 100 years from now, it's my win, because nothing is going to happen.

"There is nothing in my urine sample, so I can sleep," he continued. "I can go with my kids, go for a swim, go for a barbecue, go to the zoo, go geocaching and don't be afraid that people might point their fingers at me. I think that's really worth the effort. I'm trying to teach the kids: go straight in life and you will be rewarded for that."

I kinda like Jens because he's one of the gutsiest riders in the peloton, and he may be clean now. But I don't really see him as an anti-doping role model. His answer to a SpiegelTV reporter who went around asking riders before a stage in the Tour of Germany "Have you doped already today?" was somewhat self-incriminating in its evasiveness & counter-accusations:

"What kind of bum are you? Have you cheated on your wife
today? Have you cheated your employer today? Have you run a red light? Did you drive drunk ? What kind of an idiot are you? Look at your own soul. Are you clean? Then you can judge me!"
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/359557/have-you-doped-already-today-translations-for-jens-voigt-etc

The video of that and the other riders questioned (Zabel & Julich) was on Youtube for a short while (Haben Sie sich heute schon gedopt?), but it disappeared quickly, and I've never been able to find it again.

Can't wait, btw, for the detailed LA info to come out....

 

[Pazuzu]

she has not. she admitted to lying to the federal inquiry about taking what she thought was vitamins. she has never admitted to intentionally taking PEDs.

She admitted to the Judge that she knew she was taking PEDs.

"Flanked by her attorneys and with her mother a few feet away, Jones sat perfectly straight as she acknowledged her crimes. Speaking into a microphone, her voice was crystal clear when she admitted lying to a federal investigator in November 2003 when he asked if she had used performance-enhancing drugs.

'I answered that I had not. This was a lie, your honor,' she said.

Jones said she took steroids from September 2000 to July 2001 and said she was told by her then-coach Trevor Graham that she was taking flaxseed oil when it was actually 'the clear.' That’s a performance-enhancing drug linked to BALCO, the lab at the center of the steroids scandal in professional sports.

'I consumed this substance several times before the Sydney Olympics and continued using it after,' Jones told the judge. 'By November 2003, I realized he was giving me performance-enhancing drugs.'

She said she 'felt different, trained more intensely' and experienced 'faster recovery and better times' while using the substance.

'He told me to put it under my tongue for a few seconds and swallow it,' she said. 'He told me not to tell anyone.'

A Sept. 3, 2003, search warrant at BALCO uncovered ledgers, purchases, doping calendars, and various blood-test results connected to Jones and Graham, said Matt Parrella, a federal prosecutor in Northern California."


http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21138883/page/2/

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Neineinei... don't be sorry. Be mad!

And I agree with you by the way. Sort of.

Oakley announced they are sticking by Lance also now.

I mean.. Travis.. get IT out there...

On a personal level, if Livestrong implodes, that's where I draw the line. Also, the whole rebuke/comment about "there are many cancer charities out there, don't support Livestrong since Lance cheated" is really also very dumb.

Who said that??
Please so not misrepresent what I said.

Not pointing fingers at anyone here, it's just so obvious how Livestrong trancends and goes beyond your regular charity... Young and old people, youth culture, pop culture, sports and recreation on a global level.. the yellow wristband made cancer "touchable".... talkable. Made it real. Made people DEAL with it.

Hate Lance all you want (again, who ever doubted?), but if hatred for a psychopath shoots down an international, universal cancer charity that inspires on so many levels... that would just be dumb.

Also - so that you are clear, Livestrong is not a charity.
His charity is the Lance Armstrong Foundation - Livestrong is a marketing slogan, one that LA was attempting to enrich himself from.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sponsors have issued comments.

Nike is sticking by Lance.

Michelob is.

Trek, obviously.

The world is leaning to supporting Armstrong.

Give it time. It's far cheaper to let a contract expire and not renew then actively pursue ending a contract prior to expiration. The ads you are seeing now were paid a while ago, so it will take some time for the visibility to decline. It will. It will because there's more coming... And this is where things go from bad to worse for Wonderboy.

Plus, he can't stay away. He couldn't retire the first time or the second time. He's going to try grabbing the limelight again and it will make him look bad. He's his own worst enemy.

Also, faulting Lance that he didn't go to arbitration so the evidence could be provided is mindboggling to me. Why not put the evidence OUT there. What's the risk?

Perjury. The guy at this point has told so many lies to so many people there's no way he can keep it all straight and NOT perjur (SP???) himself. No way.

Also, no blood and urine samples included. Really? Come on now!

Not true. The most damning of all samples are from the comeback and they've got him cold on a longitudinal positive. Which implicates the UCI... Uh oh....

...what a clusterf**k USADA has made here.

No. USADA has been sticking to the letter of the rules that guide them and as long as they don't try anything stupid, it's going to get worse for Wonderboy. It will take time though... Wonderboy will probably try to litigate again, but most of his legal options have been tried and failed by other dopers.

I'm going to be charitable here and suggest if you are genuine about all this posturing, then you need to wade through some of the older threads. You are bringing up issues that have been resolved to great specificity in other threads.

 

[Benotti69]

Neineinei... don't be sorry. Be mad!

And I agree with you by the way. Sort of.

Oakley announced they are sticking by Lance also now.

I mean.. Travis.. get IT out there...

On a personal level, if Livestrong implodes, that's where I draw the line. Also, the whole rebuke/comment about "there are many cancer charities out there, don't support Livestrong since Lance cheated" is really also very dumb.

Not pointing fingers at anyone here, it's just so obvious how Livestrong trancends and goes beyond your regular charity... Young and old people, youth culture, pop culture, sports and recreation on a global level.. the yellow wristband made cancer "touchable".... talkable. Made it real. Made people DEAL with it. Hate Lance all you want (again, who ever doubted?), but if hatred for a psychopath shoots down an international, universal cancer charity that inspires on so many levels... that would just be dumb.

That is so not true and an insult to those out there before Armstrong 'invented' cancer.

There are plenty of charities before ans since Armstrong doing good work. LieStrong limits itself to sending people to other charities who do the work and providing information. They dont provide funds for poor people who have not Health insurance. They give virtually nothing to research and they spend lots on advertising. Wonderboy probably pockets a bunch of it all too.

They claimed to have helped over 2,500,000 million people with services. FFS that could mean anything adn who is checking. Word is IRS will be.
They are nothing special as a charity and its founder is now nothing aswell.

Paul Newman was a guy who gave something and made a difference.

Armstrong just leaves a bad taste.

 

[ÅSBJÖRN BENKT]

She admitted to the Judge that she knew she was taking PEDs.

"Flanked by her attorneys and with her mother a few feet away, Jones sat perfectly straight as she acknowledged her crimes. Speaking into a microphone, her voice was crystal clear when she admitted lying to a federal investigator in November 2003 when he asked if she had used performance-enhancing drugs.

'I answered that I had not. This was a lie, your honor,' she said.

Jones said she took steroids from September 2000 to July 2001 and said she was told by her then-coach Trevor Graham that she was taking flaxseed oil when it was actually 'the clear.' That’s a performance-enhancing drug linked to BALCO, the lab at the center of the steroids scandal in professional sports.

'I consumed this substance several times before the Sydney Olympics and continued using it after,' Jones told the judge. 'By November 2003, I realized he was giving me performance-enhancing drugs.'

She said she 'felt different, trained more intensely' and experienced 'faster recovery and better times' while using the substance.

'He told me to put it under my tongue for a few seconds and swallow it,' she said. 'He told me not to tell anyone.'

A Sept. 3, 2003, search warrant at BALCO uncovered ledgers, purchases, doping calendars, and various blood-test results connected to Jones and Graham, said Matt Parrella, a federal prosecutor in Northern California."


http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21138883/page/2/

thanks for backing me up. she said she thought they were flaxseed oil. she has never admitted to intentionally taking PEDs. only that she lied to the grand jury by denying she took what she thought was flaxseed oil.

she told oprah all about it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ewja4q0z7s

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Assuming that there is anything in the 'evidence' that we have not already seen for the past 17 years.

Lets see if we can figure out who the 'witnesses' are shall we?
#1 - Frank Andreau.
#2 - Betsy Andreau.
#3 - Greg LeMond.
#4 - Tyler Hamilton.
#5 - Floyd Landis.
#6 - **** Pound.
#7 - Paul Kimmage.
#8 - David Walsh.
#9 - Mike Anderson.
#10 - Flillipo Simeoni.

Hmmm ... clearly all these witnesses are in danger of being ... murderered or silenced like they have been for the previous ... 17 years.

Perhaps the real reason that the list of names was not released has little to do with ... the possibility that a steroid enarged LA might hunt them down and permenantly silence them ... than to the fact that this is just a rehash of what we have heard for ... 17 years now.

Be interesting to see the evidence, if we can get past the ... delays.

Hi Gree.
The charging letter from USADA said:
"The witnesses to this conduct described in this letter include more than ten (10) cyclists as well as cycling team employees".....
"multiple riders with first hand knowledge"

So,thats only 3 people on your list.