USADA - Armstrong

[Jeremiah]

You're in the cult too?

Yes, and I suggest handing out t-shirts at the door for FL, TH, etc. I have some pithy sayings to put on them but I better keep quiet else I might get canned. Perhaps they can petition for special status with the EEOC.

I must say I will pat myself on the back by saying LA would fight this. The usual prognosticators in here were saying he would lay down and that just shows their willful ignorance of what he is about, and their underestimation of him. IF he would have been indicted by the Feds then he wouldn't have plead and he would have taken it too trial and won as well. Too bad I didn't get to rub that in the cult's faces.

I hope LA beats this because he was the best on the road (good work in here the other day Krebs) and this whole issue stinks. Trygart charges him because he wouldn't come confess while others did, and now the testimony of those others will be used against him while they get off. Others who had free will to engage or not to engage in doping, and had zero problem enriching themselves with the winning while on USPS. Maybe FL can ride a wheelie for the victim crowd at the party like he did on the Champs in 2002 while all smiles in the USPS kit. USADA charges all at once to get more people to roll over to get the big prize that allowed others to thrive. Makes me want to puke.

Give me a break. Only within the pretzel (un)ethical logic of the clinic does this get rave reviews.

LA's defense will be as he submitted the 22nd and then some, and as I wrote way upthread this will be a bloodbath before it is all over. He has alot more to lose than those titles and scorched earth will be the result.

Btw, LA said he was going to lay down in Men's Urinal.

Go over to LA's facebook page and survey the cult members. You'll do quite well leading them. Congrats!

 

[rhubroma]

Yes, and I suggest handing out t-shirts at the door for FL, TH, etc. I have some pithy sayings to put on them but I better keep quiet else I might get canned. Perhaps they can petition for special status with the EEOC.

I must say I will pat myself on the back by saying LA would fight this. The usual prognosticators in here were saying he would lay down and that just shows their willful ignorance of what he is about, and their underestimation of him. IF he would have been indicted by the Feds then he wouldn't have plead and he would have taken it too trial and won as well. Too bad I didn't get to rub that in the cult's faces.

I hope LA beats this because he was the best on the road (good work in here the other day Krebs) and this whole issue stinks. Trygart charges him because he wouldn't come confess while others did, and now the testimony of those others will be used against him while they get off. Others who had free will to engage or not to engage in doping, and had zero problem enriching themselves with the winning while on USPS. Maybe FL can ride a wheelie for the victim crowd at the party like he did on the Champs in 2002 while all smiles in the USPS kit. USADA charges all at once to get more people to roll over to get the big prize that allowed others to thrive. Makes me want to puke.

Give me a break. Only within the pretzel (un)ethical logic of the clinic does this get rave reviews.

LA's defense will be as he submitted the 22nd and then some, and as I wrote way upthread this will be a bloodbath before it is all over. He has alot more to lose than those titles and scorched earth will be the result.

However, you neglect to mention that some of those others have in fact been punished for doping, while still others have much more to loose than to gain for coming clean.

That Lance won't confess quite naturally leads, in light of the testimony of several reliable sources, to his being brought to task.

Or are you just a hypocritical spin doctor?

PS: I light of your testimony below, do you or do you not think Lance Armstrong should be condemned for doping? It's a simple, straight-forward question. Somehow I doubt, though, you will answer it in a simple and straight-forward manner. Regardless of what occurs to the others.

 

[ChrisE]

Btw, LA said he was going to lay down in Men's Urinal.

Go over to LA's facebook page and survey the cult members. You'll do quite well leading them. Congrats!

Nah, I wouldn't fit in there cuz I think he doped. Plus, facebook is the devil's work (I cancelled my page a few months after I signed up 3 years ago).

That Men's Journal article sure has alot of traction in here. Pick and choose what you want to believe when he opens his mouth, right? LA is a pathological liar but when he says something you want to believe that would place the utmost shame upon him then you etal are on it like white on rice. Must engage brain, jeremiah!

In the future I suggest trying to see what he is about and his past actions, and what he has to lose then concentrate real hard and make a prediction. It's not that difficult.

 

[ChrisE]

However, you neglect to mention that some of those others have in fact been punished for doping, while still others have much more to loose than to gain for coming clean.

That Lance won't confess quite naturally leads, in light of the testimony of several reliable sources, to his being brought to task.

Or are you just a hypocritical spin doctor?

Reliable sources that, by deductive reasoning, doped. Is it FL and TH, then a bunch of soigneurs? Doubtful.

FL and TH have been punished. Who else? Others have testified, and presumably admitted, and I have heard of no punishment. GH, Levi, I have heard VdV, who else? Have you heard of any other punishment or was the letter to LA the only one that made the news?

I am not familiar with the "admit and you get no punishment" statute in any anti-doping institution, or the "don't admit and get punishment" statute.

What is there to lose by coming clean if there is no punishment, rubarb? If GH implicated him, then is he being made to wear a scarlet letter on his jersey this TdF lol? Methinks you need to rethink your post.

 

[Jeremiah]

Nah, I wouldn't fit in there cuz I think he doped. Plus, facebook is the devil's work (I cancelled my page a few months after I signed up 3 years ago).

That Men's Journal article sure has alot of traction in here. Pick and choose what you want to believe when he opens his mouth, right? LA is a pathological liar but when he says something you want to believe that would place the utmost shame upon him then you etal are on it like white on rice. Must engage brain, jeremiah!

In the future I suggest trying to see what he is about and his past actions, and what he has to lose then concentrate real hard and make a prediction. It's not that difficult.

I honestly glaze over when I read most of this stuff.. I take it at face value. I'd drive myself nuts trying to discern the motives of pathological liars/sociopaths.

It's really not a matter of what I want to believe either. The guy made a pretty bold statement in a national publication which featured him on the cover. Now a couple of weeks later, he's doing the exact opposite of what he stated he'd do? So much for anything coming out him meaning anything except noise. He gets off, what can you say? A clue the world is very effed up?

If Armstrong does escape, what does this say about the enablers of that?

 

[rhubroma]

Reliable sources that, by deductive reasoning, doped. Is it FL and TH, then a bunch of soigneurs? Doubtful.

FL and TH have been punished. Who else? Others have testified, and presumably admitted, and I have heard of no punishment. GH, Levi, I have heard VdV, who else? Have you heard of any other punishment or was the letter to LA the only one that made the news?

I am not familiar with the "admit and you get no punishment" statute in any anti-doping institution, or the "don't admit and get punishment" statute.

What is there to lose by coming clean if there is no punishment, rubarb? If GH implicated him, then is he being made to wear a scarlet letter on his jersey this TdF lol? Methinks you need to rethink your post.

Not. Ha! Leniency is built into many juridical systems for those who confess their crimes. Now I'm no legal expert and the whole so-called philosophy of all the legal considerations seems to me to not be about justice, but rather more based upon the type of savvy and market interests that I have always found philosophically appalling.

If Lance goes down but others are cut a break for their precious testimony, in light of the blockbuster colossalness of his fraud and of course the mendacity of his persona, then I can live with that. We simple live in a world, ChrisE, where deals are cut and different measurements get applied to the same weight. But Lance knows this better than anyone else.

PS. In light of your previous testimony, do you or do you not think Lance Armstrong should be condemned for doping? It's a simple, straight-forward question. Somehow I doubt, though, you will answer it in a simple and straight-forward manner. Regardless of what occurs to the others.

 

[MarkvW]

This is insightful.

Knowing the folks at USADA as well as I do, I'd describe them as ice-cold and fairly unemotional and unflappable. They think several moves ahead even when ordering dinner and early-on in the process I figured the best way to deal with them was not to try to be crafty or clever, b/c they'd eventually walk me into a brick-wall or punji-stick trap of my own making.

For them to even have decided to charge Lance they must be 99% confident/sure of being able to present sufficient evidence to win a conviction. Otherwise they wouldn't risk it. For them to have decided to charge several people along w/ him and bundle the crimes into a single massive conspiracy means the evidence is overwhelming.

I'm proud of my modest role in it all!

Thanks for the great example of narcissism!

 

[Lajeretta4Ever]

It's stories like this that makes him all the more disgusting for continuing to prey on those who support him.

It's a nice little ditty of a blog. Probably a better reflection of the comments section out there.

http://darien.patch.com/articles/why-doping-allegations-against-lance-armstrong-hurt-so-much

Hey Hog, do you live in Darien? I do. I always wondered who that chubby guy was riding around town in a full USPS kit and Trek. I think I passed you the other day, riding my 1994 Serotta Ti

 

[aphronesis]

I honestly glaze over when I read most of this stuff.. I take it at face value. I'd drive myself nuts trying to discern the motives of pathological liars/sociopaths.

It's really not a matter of what I want to believe either. The guy made a pretty bold statement in a national publication which featured him on the cover. Now a couple of weeks later, he's doing the exact opposite of what he stated he'd do? So much for anything coming out him meaning anything except noise. He gets off, what can you say? A clue the world is very effed up?

If Armstrong does escape, what does this say about the enablers of that?

Motive is a psychological invention of the 19th century: meant to underwrite production and civic security. That many here waste any time trying to divine it speaks more of their unstable values than the situation they're championing.

Invert this re. your last question.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Thanks for the great example of narcissism!

+1
That is why I have no respect for mr papp....

 

[ChrisE]

Not. Ha! Leniency is built into many juridical systems for those who confess their crimes. Now I'm no legal expert and the whole so-called philosophy of all the legal considerations seems to me to not be about justice, but rather more based upon the type of savvy and market interests that I have always found philosophically appalling.

If Lance goes down but others are cut a break for their precious testimony, in light of the blockbuster colossalness of his fraud and of course the mendacity of his persona, then I can live with that. We simple live in a world, ChrisE, where deals are cut and different measurements get applied to the same weight. But Lance knows this better than anyone else.

PS. In light of your previous testimony, do you or do you not think Lance Armstrong should be condemned for doping? It's a simple, straight-forward question. Somehow I doubt, though, you will answer it in a simple and straight-forward manner. Regardless of what occurs to the others.

OK, you admit there is no statute saying "confess, no sanction" in play here, as well as the "LA wouldn't come talk to us so we charged him" rule, with the idiotic moving goalpost on the SOL. Presumable if LA would have talked to USADA we would not be having this discussion? Right.

We have all of these inferred rules in your head when it comes to doping/punishment, which confuses a simple guy like me in this instance. Don't try to extrapolate this into real life crimes, which I know you are trying to do.

As for your PS, no I do not think he should be "condemned" (by who????). IF he was the only one doping then yes but of course we do not believe that. I don't believe he should be condemned for making a victim out of JU, Basso, Rumsas, etc. The system should be condemned that allowed this to happen, and now tries to cover their tracks in a BS manner IMO. He played the game and won, and some of you don't like that because he rubs you the wrong way. I have made my thoughts known about the real problem here. YMMV.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Sounds great, but don't think you and your hippy friends are crashing at my place

We'll all go to the BellyUp and crash the same hotel that Prince Harry got in trouble at in Solana Beach afterwards....

 

[MacRoadie]

Btw, LA said he was going to lay down in Men's Urinal.

But, you see, Chris knew LA was lying in the MJ article. Armstrong and the legions all adhere to the same ethos: lie through your teeth and when called on it, claim it was all "strategy" in the face of the witch hunt vendetta.

Unfortunately, the rest of us are burdened with intelligence and a higher moral code, and are not so quick to appreciate the horse **** at first blush...

 

[rhubroma]

OK, you admit there is no statute saying "confess, no sanction" in play here, as well as the "LA wouldn't come talk to us so we charged him" rule, with the idiotic moving goalpost on the SOL. Presumable if LA would have talked to USADA we would not be having this discussion? Right.

We have all of these inferred rules in your head when it comes to doping/punishment, which confuses a simple guy like me in this instance. Don't try to extrapolate this into real life crimes, which I know you are trying to do.

As for your PS, no I do not think he should be "condemned" (by who????). IF he was the only one doping then yes but of course we do not believe that. I don't believe he should be condemned for making a victim out of JU, Basso, Rumsas, etc. The system should be condemned that allowed this to happen, and now tries to cover their tracks in a BS manner IMO. He played the game and won, and some of you don't like that because he rubs you the wrong way. I have made my thoughts known about the real problem here. YMMV.

What a specious argument. Condem the system but not Lance. You then attempt to enoble your position by saying he, Lance Armstrong, should not be condemned because everybody else was doing it. The glaring issue with your argument, however, is that Basso, Vino, Ullrich, Hereras, etc. and even Contador have all served their time. But not Wonderboy. Does this not smack as affront to decency in your mind?

You only demonstrate the dimension of your rediculousness with each post.

In a world governed by a mafioso system, one has to make concessions to arrive at the boss. This, at least, we can't argue.

Being the true cynic that you are (and even more than me, which is difficult to surpass), you condem the hypocrisy of a system that requires a radical and earth shattering revolution. Minor revolts won't do. But since most people can't stomach such a fundamental change, we are forced to deal with reality.

The difference between your cynicism and mine is that you have given in totally to the depravity.

 

[Jeremiah]

Motive is a psychological invention of the 19th century: meant to underwrite production and civic security. That many here waste any time trying to divine it speaks more of their unstable values than the situation they're championing.

I guess humans have evolved very quickly over recorded history?
Invert this re. your last question.

I should've written, I don't obsess over it. I came to my conclusions pretty quickly after I had a good idea of what the facts were regarding Armstrong.

Interesting that "motive" didn't exist before the 1800's?

I guess humans have evolved very quickly over recorded history?

You don't happen to read any of the uh, Literature?

 

[MacRoadie]

I am not familiar with the "admit and you get no punishment" statute in any anti-doping institution, or the "don't admit and get punishment" statute.

Perhaps you should go back and read the (multiple) references (with links) to the latitude allowed under the code re: sanction reduction for cooperation, and its codification under WADA.

 

[Jeremiah]

I know LA's own words mean little but.

Hey Hog, do you live in Darien? I do. I always wondered who that chubby guy was riding around town in a full USPS kit and Trek. I think I passed you the other day, riding my 1994 Serotta Ti

Come on R**2, a few months ago LA was drained both emotionally and physically with the specter of a GJ indictment ready to come down any day (well at least according to the Clinic pundits).

Strain of the case:

At the time Armstrong insisted that he wasn’t wasting time thinking about the process, but he now reveals that it did indeed weigh heavily on him: ‘The most frustrating and confusing thing I’ve ever been through,” he said of the experience. “I was miserable – if people think I was an ******* before… There were days when you just damn near crash – personally and privately.

“I had days where I thought I was f*cked,” he said, then added, “but I always thought the right decision would be made.”

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...expected-USADA-doping-case.aspx#ixzz1yjLQGbxK

http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/is-lance-armstrong-finished-fighting-20120614

Entertaining comment from Lancetown.

lance4ever

500 plus passed drug tests. Drug tested at home,on vacation,while training and during races.The French found nothing. The Feds found nothing. Lance trained 1000 times harder than he ever raced. His training routine is the stuff of legend.
Stop the nonsense. He is 100% clean. End of story.

 

[thehog]

But, you see, Chris knew LA was lying in the MJ arricle. Armstrong and the legions all adhere to the same erhos: lie through your teeth and when called on it, claim it was all "strategy" in the face of the witch hunt vendetta.

Unfortunately, the rest of us are burdened with intelligence and a higher moral code, and are not so quick to appreciate the horse **** at first blush...

Isn't it ironic that the fanboys are not shouting about the lack of process in the Birotte decision but for USADA???

Irony indeed.

 

[thehog]

Hey Hog, do you live in Darien? I do. I always wondered who that chubby guy was riding around town in a full USPS kit and Trek. I think I passed you the other day, riding my 1994 Serotta Ti

That's me. I love the feel of USPS on my rolls of fat.

 

[red_flanders]

As we all move along here, please be careful to debate the opinion, not the poster or whatever you assume is their motive.

Presenting your opinion is not only welcome, but the point of the forum. Trying to start conflicts and prodding people is trolling. It's up to the mod team which is which, so err on the side of caution please.

Respectful debate is the guideline here.

 

[spetsa]

OK, you admit there is no statute saying "confess, no sanction" in play here, as well as the "LA wouldn't come talk to us so we charged him" rule, with the idiotic moving goalpost on the SOL. Presumable if LA would have talked to USADA we would not be having this discussion? Right.

We have all of these inferred rules in your head when it comes to doping/punishment, which confuses a simple guy like me in this instance. Don't try to extrapolate this into real life crimes, which I know you are trying to do.

As for your PS, no I do not think he should be "condemned" (by who????). IF he was the only one doping then yes but of course we do not believe that. I don't believe he should be condemned for making a victim out of JU, Basso, Rumsas, etc. The system should be condemned that allowed this to happen, and now tries to cover their tracks in a BS manner IMO. He played the game and won, and some of you don't like that because he rubs you the wrong way. I have made my thoughts known about the real problem here. YMMV.

Stop your nonsense....

Show me one post where someone has claimed that the riders who confessed (as witnesses) are not going to be punished. WADA and USADA code clearly states that reduced suspensions can be given for cooperation in an investigation.

If in fact the witnesses who are currently on UCI teams do not serve a suspension of some sort, then I will myself agree that the process is need of drastic change. I understand that the USADA procedure cleary states that LA and his team are not entitled to the evidence until after the review board hears the evidence and determines if the case moves forward. If in fact this happens (making the witness list public) during the TDF, the teams of the named riders will have to be withdrawn form the race. In this regard, I believe that JV is playing with the future of his team by startiing them. I guess we will see.

 

[rhubroma]

Stop your nonsense....

Show me one post where someone has claimed that the riders who confessed (as witnesses) are not going to be punished. WADA and USADA code clearly states that reduced suspensions can be given for cooperation in an investigation.

If in fact the witnesses who are currently on UCI teams do not serve a suspension of some sort, then I will myself agree that the process is need of drastic change. I understand that the USADA procedure cleary states that LA and his team are not entitled to the evidence until after the review board hears the evidence and determines if the case moves forward. If in fact this happens (making the witness list public) during the TDF, the teams of the named riders will have to be withdrawn form the race. In this regard, I believe that JV is playing with the future of his team by startiing them. I guess we will see.

Compliments.

 

[spetsa]

To add something to my previous post, a potential disaster for the USADA would be to attempt to extend the SOL to LA, but not the witnesses. That would be a huge mistake on their part, but one that I could see happening

 

[red_flanders]

Probably worth remembering in all this that Armstrong is only one of several people facing sanctions.

 

[rhubroma]

Probably worth remembering in all this that Armstrong is only one of several people facing sanctions.

But who cares? When others have been sanctioned. OR is this site conservative.