USADA - Armstrong

[Elagabalus]

flick's quote

Flick, it's time to give it a rest. Take your medicine and get back to us ...

 

[SuperH-]

I'd like to ask why is the USADA doing all this to prove that Armstrong doped? I mean he is American and proving he doped will take away an achievement in American sports? Shouldn't more powerful people be stopping USADA from taking away a big pride and achievement ? I mean they are from the same country whats the point fighting eachother? isn't it better to make as if Armstrong is a natural winner and keep the record of 7 consecutive wins in the TDF to an American?

 

[Elagabalus]

flick redux

Don't take this the wrong way (Polish?) but you're an idiot ...

 

[sittingbison]

I'd like to ask why is the USADA doing all this to prove that Armstrong doped? I mean he is American and proving he doped will take away an achievement in American sports? Shouldn't more powerful people be stopping USADA from taking away a big pride and achievement ? I mean they are from the same country whats the point fighting eachother? isn't it better to make as if Armstrong is a natural winner and keep the record of 7 consecutive wins in the TDF to an American?

This is the funniest, driest, most dead pan delivery ever...taking the mickey out of Lance and his expensive suits. God SuperH you need to get a show on Comedy Central after Jon Stewart you're so funny.

Cheers SuperH, thanks for brightening my Friday afternoon after putting up with all the drivel over in the Sky threads.

 

[poupou]

I'd like to ask why is the USADA doing all this to prove that Armstrong doped? I mean he is American and proving he doped will take away an achievement in American sports? Shouldn't more powerful people be stopping USADA from taking away a big pride and achievement ? I mean they are from the same country whats the point fighting eachother? isn't it better to make as if Armstrong is a natural winner and keep the record of 7 consecutive wins in the TDF to an American?

People can only be proud of achievements done without cheating, bribes or doping.
That is the main reason that USADA wants to clear American record.

 

[eyemgh]

Tygert’s mantra is he is pursing Armstrong on behalf of those he is charged with protecting. Who is he protecting by pursing Armstrong? Ulrich, Basso and Mancebo (see 2005 Tour results)? Armstrong rode in an era when the use of performance enhancing drugs was systemic at the top echelons of our sport. Athletes had a choice, get on the program or you cannot compete. With increased awareness, testing and pressure to be clean, cycling is becoming one of the cleanest professional sports in the world. Cyclist should no longer have to make the choice – dope or you don’t get a contract. Tygert is doing nothing for CURRENT athletes he is charged to protect. He is wasting taxpayer money to make a name for himself, to stroke his own ego, at the expense of current athletes and the taxpayers. Instead of wasting money to pursue Armstrong, USADA should be devoting its budget to testing at more races, and leveling the playing field for current athletes and our children so they do not have to face the difficult decision dedicated athletes faced over the previous two decades. Armstrong, with or without drugs, was the greatest Tour de France rider of his time, did more for American cycling than anyone else has ever come close to doing, and has inspired and assisted millions with his foundation. Tygert, not Armstrong, should be the subject of our ire. A government employee, wasting taxpayer money for his own personal gain - ego.

There is a major flaw with the line that everyone in that era cheated, so Lance was still the best. Not everyone cheated and those who did didn't cheat the same. There was major money behind Lance. While Spaniards were nearly dying from using blood shuttled on a scooter at between some dude's legs, Lance was defining the cutting edge of doping. I watched Danny Pate and Michael Creed race as young juniors. I'm convinced they never doped. They were both so good that if they'd gone to the dark side, they would have been stars. If Tygard does this for anyone, he should do it for the toilers in the peleton. They were/are the courageous ones who've been cheated.

M

 

[nickalas]

Hi guys,
I'm a massive lurker of this thread, and I've got strange question for you.

I occasionally come across people who think Lance is innocent. They have a strong opinion on the matter, however they have very little knowledge on the subect.

Unfortunately my head is usually just BURSTING with information on the subject, and I find it hard to articulate the million reasons as to how I can convince them that he's a cheat, and a terrible person.

So my question to you guys: How do I convince an uneducated Lance follower, in less than 60 seconds that he's a cheat and not the great guy he has convinced so many people he is?
Their common defenses are:
- those that testify are all doing it in self interest
- he never tested positive
- LIVESTRONG. It's a witch hunt that will cause more harm than good!!!

These people are generally rational and educated - so by quickly pointing out to them how much they don't know about the subject, and giving good arguments - it should be a rather easy thing to do.

 

[TexPat]

There is a major flaw with the line that everyone in that era cheated, so Lance was still the best. Not everyone cheated and those who did didn't cheat the same. There was major money behind Lance. While Spaniards were nearly dying from using blood shuttled on a scooter at between some dude's legs, Lance was defining the cutting edge of doping. I watched Danny Pate and Michael Creed race as young juniors. I'm convinced they never doped. They were both so good that if they'd gone to the dark side, they would have been stars. If Tygard does this for anyone, he should do it for the toilers in the peleton. They were/are the courageous ones who've been cheated.

M

That's it in a nutshell. Protect the people who do their jobs with integrity despite being surrounded by scum. Christophe Bassons!

 

[TexPat]

Hi guys,
I'm a massive lurker of this thread, and I've got strange question for you.

I occasionally come across people who think Lance is innocent. They have a strong opinion on the matter, however they have very little knowledge on the subect.

Unfortunately my head is usually just BURSTING with information on the subject, and I find it hard to articulate the million reasons as to how I can convince them that he's a cheat, and a terrible person.

So my question to you guys: How do I convince an uneducated Lance follower, in less than 60 seconds that he's a cheat and not the great guy he has convinced so many people he is?
Their common defenses are:
- those that testify are all doing it in self interest
- he never tested positive
- LIVESTRONG. It's a witch hunt that will cause more harm than good!!!

These people are generally rational and educated - so by quickly pointing out to them how much they don't know about the subject, and giving good arguments - it should be a rather easy thing to do.

It will get a lot easier to convince people with brains who have been duped by the regurgitation of half-truths and outright lies, not to worry. Just wait til the myth of the 500 tests goes mainstream.

 

[the big ring]

Hi guys,
I'm a massive lurker of this thread, and I've got strange question for you.

I occasionally come across people who think Lance is innocent. They have a strong opinion on the matter, however they have very little knowledge on the subect.

Unfortunately my head is usually just BURSTING with information on the subject, and I find it hard to articulate the million reasons as to how I can convince them that he's a cheat, and a terrible person.

So my question to you guys: How do I convince an uneducated Lance follower, in less than 60 seconds that he's a cheat and not the great guy he has convinced so many people he is?
Their common defenses are:
- those that testify are all doing it in self interest
- he never tested positive
- LIVESTRONG. It's a witch hunt that will cause more harm than good!!!

These people are generally rational and educated - so by quickly pointing out to them how much they don't know about the subject, and giving good arguments - it should be a rather easy thing to do.

If you ever manage to convince a Christian that their belief is misplaced, you will be able to do what you wish to do above.

ie not likely.

It is a realisation you must come to in your own time, on your own terms.

 

[sittingbison]

Their common defenses are:
- those that testify are all doing it in self interest
- he never tested positive
- LIVESTRONG. It's a witch hunt that will cause more harm than good!!

1) More than 10 team mates will testify, nobody knows who. None have any vested self interest.
2) He tested positive in 1999. He tested positive in 2001. He tested positive in 2005 (six times) for EPO use in 1999. He evaded an OCC test (automatic positive) I think it was 2004? He delayed a test 20 minutes (auto strike) I think in 2009?
3) Livestrong was founded on lies and fraud. They are better off without him.

However, you have zero chance, so don't bother getting your knickers in a knot

 

[jseibert]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate got robbed by dopers, but how does going after Lance help the Danny Pate's of today? Wouldn't resources be better spent testing? I am tired of reading about Lance Armstrong.

 

[HL2037]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate got robbed by dopers, but how does going after Lance help the Danny Pate's of today? Wouldn't resources be better spent testing? I am tired of reading about Lance Armstrong.

Maybe there are Danny Pates in triathlon?

 

[Benotti69]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate got robbed by dopers, but how does going after Lance help the Danny Pate's of today? Wouldn't resources be better spent testing? I am tired of reading about Lance Armstrong.

Simple, when Armstrong gets exposed, the UCI will be exposed, Bruyneel will be exposed, doctors will be exposed, the pro peloton will be exposed and this will all hopefully lead the media( to at least do its job as journalists and ask difficult questions of UCI, riders, DS, doctors, nat federations) to exposing all those involved in similar set ups.

It might also start looking deeper than press releases and demand transparency.

It will also lead to a fully independent anti doping agency.

It will hopefully lead to doping being criminalised as fraud with stiff fines and sentencing for the worst offenders.

It will be the slide of little stones that should start an avalanche.

At least it will expose the myth of Armstrong and serve as a huge warning to others in sport. That money cannot buy you protection from your cheating forever.

 

[the big ring]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate got robbed by dopers, but how does going after Lance help the Danny Pate's of today? Wouldn't resources be better spent testing? I am tired of reading about Lance Armstrong.

Strange thread to read if you are tired of reading about Armstrong?

You know he's still trying to compete as a professional athlete, right?

 

[Catwhoorg]

It will hopefully lead to doping being criminalised as fraud with stiff fines and sentencing for the worst offenders.

Thats is my biggest hope from this.

Doping is bigger than the UCI and cycling, it is everywhere in professional sports. And it is fraud in every way. Unfairly depriving others of prizes by cheating.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate got robbed by dopers, but how does going after Lance help the Danny Pate's of today? Wouldn't resources be better spent testing? I am tired of reading about Lance Armstrong.

Simple solution to your problem: Don't read any stories about Lance Armstrong. You might have to avoid media for the next little bit, but that isn't such a bad thing. You're welcome.

 

[ManInFull]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate got robbed by dopers, but how does going after Lance help the Danny Pate's of today? Wouldn't resources be better spent testing? I am tired of reading about Lance Armstrong.

You argument is the argument that we usually hear by those who don't want the truth to be known. Do you have a problem with making the truth available to everyone?

 

[Von Mises]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate got robbed by dopers, but how does going after Lance help the Danny Pate's of today? Wouldn't resources be better spent testing? I am tired of reading about Lance Armstrong.

It does help Danny Pate´s of today. It is important part of prevention. It shows that no matter what, not matter your fame and money, we will go after you. It gives a strong signal.

 

[ManInFull]

Armstrong, with or without drugs, was the greatest Tour de France rider of his time, did more for American cycling than anyone else has ever come close to doing, and has inspired and assisted millions with his foundation. Tygert, not Armstrong, should be the subject of our ire. A government employee, wasting taxpayer money for his own personal gain - ego.

Blah, blah, blah. Why don't you come up with a compelling argument that works? Again, regardless of how many Trek bikes Armstrong has helped sell and how much money he's raised through his foundation, the truth deserves to be known. I realize hat he will be the most vilified athlete in history if the truth is what I expect it to be. But, so be it.

 

[eyemgh]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate got robbed by dopers, but how does going after Lance help the Danny Pate's of today? Wouldn't resources be better spent testing? I am tired of reading about Lance Armstrong.

First, I disagree that saying doping was systematic means it was equal. It wasn't.

Second, you can spend all the money in the world "testing," but it's a charade. A big deal is made over how many tests Lance passed. Well how many tests did Floyd pass? Millar? Riis? Ulrich? Blah...blah...blah! This domino has to fall for any hope of clean cycling in the future.

As a side note, if you want to watch entertaining cycling, watch some of the Lemond/Fignon duels. They were pre-radio and pre-RBC boosting. Man, they were battles!

M

 

[ManInFull]

One tidbit in USADA's response to the Armstrong lawsuit:

Claim: ‘Throughout his twenty-plus year professional career, Mr. Armstrong has been subjected to 500 to 600 tests without a single positive test.’

Correction: ‘USADA has requested that Armstrong’s counsel provide USADA the factual basis for this claim and Armstrong’s counsel has, to date, refused.’

 

[mwbyrd]

One tidbit in USADA's response to the Armstrong lawsuit:

Claim: ‘Throughout his twenty-plus year professional career, Mr. Armstrong has been subjected to 500 to 600 tests without a single positive test.’

Correction: ‘USADA has requested that Armstrong’s counsel provide USADA the factual basis for this claim and Armstrong’s counsel has, to date, refused.’

This shows just how absurd this whole case is. If anyone should know how much an athlete is tested it's the USADA. They have the information, why would they request it from Armstrong's lawyers?

This is from the article just posted on CyclingNews about USADA requesting LA's suit be dismissed:

Tygart said in a statement released following the filing of the motion - "Were we not to bring this case, we would be complicit in covering up evidence of doping, and failing to do our job on behalf of those we are charged with protecting."

Talk about CYA - what was their job for the last 10 years?? LA's lawyers will have a field day with this statement. They will show how inefficient and incompetent USADA is and create tremendous doubt in the agency itself!

 

[ChewbaccaD]

This shows just how absurd this whole case is. If anyone should know how much an athlete is tested it's the USADA. They have the information, why would they request it from Armstrong's lawyers?

This is from the article just posted on CyclingNews about USADA requesting LA's suit be dismissed:

Tygart said in a statement released following the filing of the motion - "Were we not to bring this case, we would be complicit in covering up evidence of doping, and failing to do our job on behalf of those we are charged with protecting."

Talk about CYA - what was their job for the last 10 years?? LA's lawyers will have a field day with this statement. They will show how inefficient and incompetent USADA is and create tremendous doubt in the agency itself!

"there's no place like home, there's no place like home."

 

[D-Queued]

I did not say everyone cheated, but you can't deny doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe. Guys like Danny Pate ...

You are 100% correct, and I have no argument with you. During Lance's career, doping was systemic in the pro peloton in Europe.

If your allegations are correct, then Danny was clearly part of the systemic doping that took place.

This is a Lance Armstrong thread.

If you want to argue that Danny was a doper, you should start another thread.

Dave.