USADA - Armstrong

[MarkvW]

Could not Judge Sparks rule again on the motion without a hearing? He certainly did in round 1.

He certainly will not. A ruling against Armstrong on the motion to dismiss would be final. Armstrong definitely gets heard on this one.

 

[MarkvW]

There were many. Glad to see you have grown a brain though.

Thanks for the insult. It's about all you're good for.

 

[Turner29]

He certainly will not. A ruling against Armstrong on the motion to dismiss would be final. Armstrong definitely gets heard on this one.

I agree but is that law or opinion. Could Monday, Judge Sparks grant the USADA's motion for dismissal?

 

[MarkvW]

I agree but is that law or opinion. Could Monday, Judge Sparks grant the USADA's motion for dismissal?

It's just an opinion. No. Sparks will not grant the motion for dismissal on Monday. He has set the next hearing for that day in August. That's when he will hear the motion.

There are other reasons, like due process and fundamental fairness, but that's the easiest reason to explain.

 

[Velodude]

I agree but is that law or opinion. Could Monday, Judge Sparks grant the USADA's motion for dismissal?

If orders were drawn up at a hearing after an appearance by both parties that both parties would file and serve documents by certain dates then Judge Sparks may give a decison on the papers rather than convene a hearing.

It would appear time would be the essence to ensure Armstrong's arguments are addressed before the extension period for his decision concerning arbitration

 

[Velodude]

It's just an opinion. No. Sparks will not grant the motion for dismissal on Monday. He has set the next hearing for that day in August. That's when he will hear the motion.

There are other reasons, like due process and fundamental fairness, but that's the easiest reason to explain.

Not if both parties consent.

 

[red_flanders]

Please refrain from insulting one another. This often starts when people start discussing others' posting history or try and characterize others' viewpoints. I suggest discussing or arguing the points made instead of insulting your fellow forumites.

 

[the big ring]

Tygart is taking up the challenge. How about you?

 

[rickshaw]

Tygart is taking up the challenge. How about you?

now THIS makes sense, leastwise compared to most of the posts here.

 

[zigmeister]

Why would USADA count. Lance is the one telling the story & making the claim.

He needs to pony up on the 500.

We wait with anticipation what he might come up with next!

Thanks for making the point how bogus the entire USADA case is with this statement.

So now the entire burden of proof is on the accused huh? Perfect example of how some private non-for profit organization that works under the guise and extension of the government doesn't actually follow due process.

The burden of proof is on the USADA, not Armstrong. But, apparently you and the USADA believe they all have to come crawling in front of the USADA panel and convince them they aren't guilty. When the fact is, USADA has nothing more than the Feds regarding witnesses and evidence.

Frankie, Floyd and Tyler, three known dopers who lied, profited and made a career of using PEDs only to later admit (once their careers are long over, how convenient), say they used PEDs. Then, everybody else, and especially Lance used PEDs.

Great character witnesses.

But since USADA doesn't follow constitutional process and rights, let's just get the circus complete, they can make their lifetime ban and take away Armstrong's TDF victories, or anything else, and move on shall we?

Just like the other guys who didn't want to waste a second on this case, they handed down lifetime bans just to make a point.

I'm still waiting for the USADA to actually provide something relevant and factual related to actual doping related to Armstrong other than the three usual suspects and Betsy's rantings.

Where is the "indicative of PED use" they keep proclaiming they have from around 2009-2010? Yet they keep saying they have something special, but won't reveal what that is.

Talk about the complete opposite of due process, USADA is showing how not to handle a legal case in a normal court of law.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for making the point how bogus the entire USADA case is with this statement.

So now the entire burden of proof is on the accused huh? Perfect example of how some private non-for profit organization that works under the guise and extension of the government doesn't actually follow due process.

The burden of proof is on the USADA, not Armstrong. But, apparently you and the USADA believe they all have to come crawling in front of the USADA panel and convince them they aren't guilty. When the fact is, USADA has nothing more than the Feds regarding witnesses and evidence.

Frankie, Floyd and Tyler, three known dopers who lied, profited and made a career of using PEDs only to later admit (once their careers are long over, how convenient), say they used PEDs. Then, everybody else, and especially Lance used PEDs.

Great character witnesses.

But since USADA doesn't follow constitutional process and rights, let's just get the circus complete, they can make their lifetime ban and take away Armstrong's TDF victories, or anything else, and move on shall we?

Just like the other guys who didn't want to waste a second on this case, they handed down lifetime bans just to make a point.

I'm still waiting for the USADA to actually provide something relevant and factual related to actual doping related to Armstrong other than the three usual suspects and Betsy's rantings.

Where is the "indicative of PED use" they keep proclaiming they have from around 2009-2010? Yet they keep saying they have something special, but won't reveal what that is.

Talk about the complete opposite of due process, USADA is showing how not to handle a legal case in a normal court of law.

Stupid post.

Lance has never been accused of being tested 500 times. No one would ever be so stupid to accuse Lance of that.

 

[eleven]

If you take the time to read the motion filed by USADA to dismiss Armstrong's suit, any open-minded individual cannot come to any other conclusion.

Of course! If you read one side's version of the story you end up believing you can come to no other conclusion.

Sounds awfully similar to all the people who said the exact same thing about the evidence in the Fed investigation.

 

[fatandfast]

Thanks for making the point how bogus the entire USADA case is with this statement.

So now the entire burden of proof is on the accused huh? Perfect example of how some private non-for profit organization that works under the guise and extension of the government doesn't actually follow due process.

The burden of proof is on the USADA, not Armstrong. But, apparently you and the USADA believe they all have to come crawling in front of the USADA panel and convince them they aren't guilty. When the fact is, USADA has nothing more than the Feds regarding witnesses and evidence.

Frankie, Floyd and Tyler, three known dopers who lied, profited and made a career of using PEDs only to later admit (once their careers are long over, how convenient), say they used PEDs. Then, everybody else, and especially Lance used PEDs.

Great character witnesses.

But since USADA doesn't follow constitutional process and rights, let's just get the circus complete, they can make their lifetime ban and take away Armstrong's TDF victories, or anything else, and move on shall we?

Just like the other guys who didn't want to waste a second on this case, they handed down lifetime bans just to make a point.

I'm still waiting for the USADA to actually provide something relevant and factual related to actual doping related to Armstrong other than the three usual suspects and Betsy's rantings.

Where is the "indicative of PED use" they keep proclaiming they have from around 2009-2010? Yet they keep saying they have something special, but won't reveal what that is.

Talk about the complete opposite of due process, USADA is showing how not to handle a legal case in a normal court of law.

I think you may have your court systems mixed up. Lance was subjected to a criminal proceeding. The government for reasons not completely defined made the decision to drop the case. Armstrong has always been subjected to pro cyclings set of rules that say he will submit to tests when and where prescribed. He also agreed to follow the judgments that the governing body decides are fair. With a few levels of appeal in place.

The process he is in now is that the USADA has decided that his samples and his alone shall be reevaluated. Because the basic premise of the USADA is that the processes in place while Lance was competing did not accurately detect PEDs or blood manipulation they have taken the steps of retesting for him as an end rather than a start to what looks like a very bad methodology.

There are a few athletes that have since admitted PED/blood manipulation to get jobs and results with pro cycling as well as Olympic medals. Hamilton and Andreu have both held titles and gone unpunished for drugs use that they later admitted. Frankie was a National champ in 84 so the backward testing on his samples should probably start there to find out when he started using. Hamilton has an even more intricate story, one in where he says his drug use was on and off. He claims he was not using drugs during some of his best career wins. The USADA should surely ensure that his claims are accurate.

If it turns out that half of the champions withing the US system have been using,Levi,Zabriski,Hindcappie, Armstrong the entire testing system that detected nothing should be checked and corrected if it was technical. If it was human action that saw and ignored positive tests then actions should be taken against the people or companies((USCF/USAC) that allowed the fraud to continue.

I think you are wrong. I think the USADA does have facts. I think they may have scientific data that is at least suspect. Why Lance's suspect data is so much more important than everybody else's is my only rub. Drugs are part of racing they always have been.Not sure why right now it is so important to re proclaim this to an American audience that could give two sh!ts about bike racing at any level.

The USADA has its own rules and Lance can play dumb but he always agreed to be subjected to them. Its only a witch hunt if they have no facts.

 

[Square-pedaller]

The burden of proof is on the USADA, not Armstrong. But, apparently you and the USADA believe they all have to come crawling in front of the USADA panel and convince them they aren't guilty.

I think you've misundeerstood something here. In the case we're talking about USADA is the defendant. Lance is challenging USADA.
I'm glad you agree that it's not up to the defendant to provide proof.

 

[thehog]

Thanks for making the point how bogus the entire USADA case is with this statement.

So now the entire burden of proof is on the accused huh? Perfect example of how some private non-for profit organization that works under the guise and extension of the government doesn't actually follow due process.

The burden of proof is on the USADA, not Armstrong. But, apparently you and the USADA believe they all have to come crawling in front of the USADA panel and convince them they aren't guilty. When the fact is, USADA has nothing more than the Feds regarding witnesses and evidence.

Frankie, Floyd and Tyler, three known dopers who lied, profited and made a career of using PEDs only to later admit (once their careers are long over, how convenient), say they used PEDs. Then, everybody else, and especially Lance used PEDs.

Great character witnesses.

But since USADA doesn't follow constitutional process and rights, let's just get the circus complete, they can make their lifetime ban and take away Armstrong's TDF victories, or anything else, and move on shall we?

Just like the other guys who didn't want to waste a second on this case, they handed down lifetime bans just to make a point.

I'm still waiting for the USADA to actually provide something relevant and factual related to actual doping related to Armstrong other than the three usual suspects and Betsy's rantings.

Where is the "indicative of PED use" they keep proclaiming they have from around 2009-2010? Yet they keep saying they have something special, but won't reveal what that is.

Talk about the complete opposite of due process, USADA is showing how not to handle a legal case in a normal court of law.

What are you talking about? Armstrong filed the motion in Federal Court and made th claim of 500.

This is Lance's action not USADAs. They're mearly stating their process is fair and responding to the misconceptions presented by Armstrong.

But I think you knew this...

 

[Race Radio]

Of course! If you read one side's version of the story you end up believing you can come to no other conclusion.

Sounds awfully similar to all the people who said the exact same thing about the evidence in the Fed investigation.

You are right, there are still a lot of people who think the Feds are done with Lance. They aren't

 

[Anonymous]

What are you talking about? Armstrong filed the motion in Federal Court and made th claim of 500.

This is Lance's action not USADAs. They're mearly stating their process is fair and responding to the misconceptions presented by Armstrong.

But I think you knew this...

Boom.

I think you have it. His word count was pretty high. Perhaps in line for a bonus or something.

 

[Turner29]

Well . . . technically . . . any open-minded individual would at least wait to see how Lance responds to the motion.

Not that I'm particularly open-minded, or anything like that . . .

That is what I was getting at. Legally, Armstrong's suit could be dismissed prior to August 10th, but for a variety of reasons, we agree it will not.

 

[Turner29]

Thanks for making the point how bogus the entire USADA case is with this statement.

So now the entire burden of proof is on the accused huh? Perfect example of how some private non-for profit organization that works under the guise and extension of the government doesn't actually follow due process.

The burden of proof is on the USADA, not Armstrong. But, apparently you and the USADA believe they all have to come crawling in front of the USADA panel and convince them they aren't guilty. When the fact is, USADA has nothing more than the Feds regarding witnesses and evidence.

Frankie, Floyd and Tyler, three known dopers who lied, profited and made a career of using PEDs only to later admit (once their careers are long over, how convenient), say they used PEDs. Then, everybody else, and especially Lance used PEDs.

Great character witnesses.

But since USADA doesn't follow constitutional process and rights, let's just get the circus complete, they can make their lifetime ban and take away Armstrong's TDF victories, or anything else, and move on shall we?

Just like the other guys who didn't want to waste a second on this case, they handed down lifetime bans just to make a point.

I'm still waiting for the USADA to actually provide something relevant and factual related to actual doping related to Armstrong other than the three usual suspects and Betsy's rantings.

Where is the "indicative of PED use" they keep proclaiming they have from around 2009-2010? Yet they keep saying they have something special, but won't reveal what that is.

Talk about the complete opposite of due process, USADA is showing how not to handle a legal case in a normal court of law.

Prior to ranting about fairness, why don't you do yourself and these forums a favor and read various first-hand documents pertaining to the USADA process. You should also read up on criminal law, civil law, arbitration and note the legal differences of each, particularly burden of proof.

You should also read the USADA's letter to Armstrong and its motion to dismiss, as these indicate the type of evidence that will presented, should Armstrong seek arbitration.

I do not have time to answer you completely and to be honest, I am not sure I want to take muck time as regardless of the facts, legal and otherwise, you have your mind made up and nothing is going to change that. However, I will say that regarding evidence "indicative of PED use," the USADA is clear that this is Blood Passport data consistent with doping.

Notwithstanding, I am going to go on a short limb and predict that you do not believe that Blood Passport control are unfair, despite being used since 2008.

 

[MarkvW]

You are right, there are still a lot of people who think the Feds are done with Lance. They aren't

You still pushing sealed indictments?

 

[eleven]

You are right, there are still a lot of people who think the Feds are done with Lance. They aren't

OK then. Let's give that a few months before we end up with foot in mouth.

 

[D-Queued]

Dave, I am certainly not an LA fan.

But I would not expect that the high powered lawyers LA has instructed to prepare and file the motion would knowingly engage in frivolous litigation. Even just to placate their litigation prone client.

Most courts have rules that can be extremely onerous on lawyers who engage in frivolous law suits.

The Federal Court rules spell it out in Rule 11

Note the sanctions which can lead to loss of standing before the court, monetary compensation for the other party's total legal costs, etc..

I would wager that LA's lawyers will withdraw some of the factual contentions before the fateful day in August.

You could be right, and yes there are malpractice cases.

If we consider some of the precedents in cycling, such as Floyd and Tyler, there still appears to be a lot of latitude for foolish clients to pay attorneys to override common sense.

Lance's lawyers are not dummies.

They will have almost certainly have advised him, on multiple occasions, what his choices are. They probably will have asked him to confirm his instructions.

Think of it like a recording star's lawyer/trustee. They cannot stop their clients from doing dumb things like buying diamond necklaces for all the girls in high school. But, they will ask them to confirm the instruction in writing.

Lance's lawyers would be idiots, and deserving of a malpractice suit, if they did not advise him that he did not have a strong legal case here. In their case, their client is a control freak... but he pays really well and cannot avoid getting into trouble.

In response to any 'balanced' view from his attorneys, he has apparently reconfirmed that they need to stop just short of being sued for frivolous or vexatious litigation. Or, rather, to straddle the line here.

I liked this argument (from Wikipedia) in Crain v. Commisioner given its parallels to Lance:

"Glenn Crain appeals from the dismissal of his Tax Court petition challenging the constitutional authority of that body and defying the jurisdiction of the Internal Revenue Service to levy taxes on his income. Crain asserts that he "is not subject to the jurisdiction, taxation, nor regulation of the state," that the "Internal Revenue Service, Incorporated" lacks authority to exercise the judicial power of the United States, that the Tax Court is unconstitutionally attempting to exercise Article III powers, and that jurisdiction over his person has never been affirmatively proven.

We perceive no need to refute these arguments with somber reasoning and copious citation of precedent; to do so might suggest that these arguments have some colorable merit. The constitutionality of our income tax system—including the role played within that system by the Internal Revenue Service and the Tax Court—has long been established. We affirm the dismissal of Crain's spurious "petition" and the assessment of a penalty imposed by the Tax Court for instituting a frivolous proceeding"

I doubt Crain had a case against his attorneys, as they were merely representing his interests and following his instruction.

Dave.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Thanks for making the point how bogus the entire USADA case is with this statement.

So now the entire burden of proof is on the accused huh? Perfect example of how some private non-for profit organization that works under the guise and extension of the government doesn't actually follow due process.

The burden of proof is on the USADA, not Armstrong. But, apparently you and the USADA believe they all have to come crawling in front of the USADA panel and convince them they aren't guilty. When the fact is, USADA has nothing more than the Feds regarding witnesses and evidence.

Frankie, Floyd and Tyler, three known dopers who lied, profited and made a career of using PEDs only to later admit (once their careers are long over, how convenient), say they used PEDs. Then, everybody else, and especially Lance used PEDs.

Great character witnesses.

But since USADA doesn't follow constitutional process and rights, let's just get the circus complete, they can make their lifetime ban and take away Armstrong's TDF victories, or anything else, and move on shall we?

Just like the other guys who didn't want to waste a second on this case, they handed down lifetime bans just to make a point.

I'm still waiting for the USADA to actually provide something relevant and factual related to actual doping related to Armstrong other than the three usual suspects and Betsy's rantings.

Where is the "indicative of PED use" they keep proclaiming they have from around 2009-2010? Yet they keep saying they have something special, but won't reveal what that is.

Talk about the complete opposite of due process, USADA is showing how not to handle a legal case in a normal court of law.

Pretty funny......what will you follow this up with.....ventriloquist drinking a glass of water with goldfish?

 

[spetsa]

You are right, there are still a lot of people who think the Feds are done with Lance. They aren't

To this point, under what jurisdiction would witness tampering or harassment/ intimidation fall, in regards to the USADA investigation? Feds?

RR, have you heard anything in regards to Big George's early retirement party being due to some questionable emails that will expose him a bit differently than the other ex-posties who will testify? I don't want to accuse him of anything that I am not privy to, but I had an intersting conversation with an ex-postie (not LA inner circle guy) on a ride the other day, and it didn't paint a pretty picture.

 

[Maxiton]

Tygart is taking up the challenge. How about you?

Your post prompted my first and last visit to the Michelob Ultra site.

Neither hide nor hair of Lance anywhere there. So how does it work? Is he still under contract and thus being paid, even though they can't use him now? Or are they still using him in other media? Or is the contract finished?