USADA - Armstrong

[Ney the Viking]

True. It's mountaneous but not high altitude.

but then still: you find semi-mountaneous areas all over the globe.
so why go to Spain at all? ..........
Well, I can think of a couple of reason, and the sunny wheather isn't one of them.
Doesn't really improve my "perception" of Garmin, now that I think of it.

Come on, noone sane would do a trainig camp in northern europe in the middle of january. Spain is cheap, decent weather, decent roads, access to flat and hilly country, good flight connections to britain. Where should they go instead? Italy? Mexico? Tenerife?

 

[sniper]

Come on, noone sane would do a trainig camp in northern europe in the middle of january. Spain is cheap, decent weather, decent roads, access to flat and hilly country, good flight connections to britain. Where should they go instead? Italy? Mexico? Tenerife?

perhaps I'm too sceptic / suspicious.

but don't be surprised to someday learn that certain dodgy connections between Garmin and a certain Del Moral (or other Spanish 'doctors') turn out to have been more intense and longlasting than hitherto assumed.

to be sure: I'm just fishing here of course, and other places are indeed dodgy as well, but Spain is the dodgiest place of all, no doubt in my mind.

Also, we know Garmin is doping, else you don't win what they are winning. (you'll agree unless you're of the naive type)
So. we have one training camp in Spain, one Giro D'Italia, one DS who knows exactly how to mask doping.
Come on, join some dots.

 

[BotanyBay]

Wasn't there some controversy regarding a certain Aussie rider, Garmin's European center of operations, a certain "medical clinic", a certain DS, some non-payment on a contract and some really pi?+ed off people not that many months ago?

 

[sniper]

Wasn't there some controversy regarding a certain Aussie rider, Garmin's European center of operations, a certain "medical clinic", a certain DS, some non-payment on a contract and some really pi?+ed off people not that many months ago?

Could it be that JV back then already knew Del Moral was going to be implicated in the LA-investigation?
Doesn't sound far-fetched, and would account for the panic in the Garmin camp back then.

 

[BotanyBay]

Could it be that JV back then already knew Del Moral was going to be implicated in the LA-investigation?

If it turns out that jv needed to keep his mouth shut for all of these years, I'll be the first to apologize to him, but in order to get it, he'll need to be one of those witnesses.

 

[noddy69]

perhaps I'm too sceptic / suspicious.

but don't be surprised to someday learn that certain dodgy connections between Garmin and a certain Del Moral (or other Spanish 'doctors') turn out to have been more intense and longlasting than hitherto assumed.

to be sure: I'm just fishing here of course, and other places are indeed dodgy as well, but Spain is the dodgiest place of all, no doubt in my mind.

Also, we know Garmin is doping, else you don't win what they are winning. (you'll agree unless you're of the naive type)
So. we have one training camp in Spain, one Giro D'Italia, one DS who knows exactly how to mask doping.
Come on, join some dots.

Explain to the naive how exactly we know Garmin is doping ? Surely that would take an admission, or super human times that are not physically possible up mountains. Because I cant see it at the moment. All I can see for what they have done is ride well so that a rider capable of winning the Giro...well he won it as one of the favourites. So please explain yourself as I must be dumb.

 

[BotanyBay]

Explain to the naive how exactly we know Garmin is doping ? Surely that would take an admission, or super human times that are not physically possible up mountains. Because I cant see it at the moment. All I can see for what they have done is ride well so that a rider capable of winning the Giro...well he won it as one of the favourites. So please explain yourself as I must be dumb.

You just have an emotional need to believe that there is a clean team, and certain people know this about people like you.

 

[noddy69]

You just have an emotional need to believe that there is a clean team, and certain people know this about people like you.

So your evidence is my emotional need. Do the doctors know your online ?

No evidence is slanderous my friend and my emotional need doesnt count.

 

[webvan]

Yeah I don't get it either when people just accuse any good team/rider of doping. You have to wonder why they bother watching/commenting.

 

[Caruut]

Why stoop so low as to call someone a troll, can't your comment stand on its own merit? He just doesn't agree with you as he (assuming he's really Korioth) has more invested personally in Armstrong.

I don't really think it's stooping that low, on an internet forum, to call someone a troll if I think they're trolling. My comment can stand on its own merit, but part of the point I was trying to make is that he is making very little contribution to the thread apart from deflection, off-topic rants, bringing up new unfounded points and then ditching them and just generally derailing the discussion. On the last count, I suppose I am guilty as well. I could say all of that, I could say he was "exhibiting troll-like behaviour in some aspects of his posting", or I could just say "troll". If someone genuinely believes they aren't trolling, then the word is water off a duck's back.

 

[cleanmarine]

Omega and Mallorca... :/

 

[BotanyBay]

Yeah I don't get it either when people just accuse any good team/rider of doping. You have to wonder why they bother watching/commenting.

There's more history to this than you're aware of.

 

[BotanyBay]

So your evidence is my emotional need. Do the doctors know your online ?

No evidence is slanderous my friend and my emotional need doesnt count.

No. Im just able to see how others can see that there's a market to be found in the visually impaired. You just can't see that either.

 

[131313]

True. It's mountaneous but not high altitude.

but then still: you find semi-mountaneous areas all over the globe.
so why go to Spain at all? ..........
Well, I can think of a couple of reason, and the sunny wheather isn't one of them.
Doesn't really improve my "perception" of Garmin, now that I think of it.

umm... because that's where most of the riders live? Why do most of them live around Girona? because there's a large infrastructure of American riders there and it makes it easy to do some basic things, like have a roof over your head. You're being a bit ridiculous. Where is an appropriate place to live and train that one won't have availability to drugs or seem suspicious? Is Levi less suspicious because he has the NorCal exemption and his team doesn't make him live in Europe?

 

[BotanyBay]

umm... because that's where most of the riders live? Why do most of them live around Girona? because there's a large infrastructure of American riders there and it makes it easy to do some basic things, like have a roof over your head. You're being a bit ridiculous. Where is an appropriate place to live and train that one won't have availability to drugs or seem suspicious? Is Levi less suspicious because he has the NorCal exemption and his team doesn't make him live in Europe?

And WHAT little hive of American riders first turned Girona into a little mini-enclave of Apple pie? We already know that not all riders had team-based doping programs. Many had to bring themselves to the dope and medical monitoring.

For a while, Kortrick (sp?) Belgium was the hub, thanks to Lemond. It's all in who starts the trend.

 

[Hawkwood]

And WHAT little hive of American riders first turned Girona into a little mini-enclave of Apple pie? We already know that not all riders had team-based doping programs. Many had to bring themselves to the dope and medical monitoring.

For a while, Kortrick (sp?) Belgium was the hub, thanks to Lemond. It's all in who starts the trend.

Didn't the move to Girona start when the French police started to get nosy?

 

[Anonymous]

And WHAT little hive of American riders first turned Girona into a little mini-enclave of Apple pie? We already know that not all riders had team-based doping programs. Many had to bring themselves to the dope and medical monitoring.

For a while, Kortrick (sp?) Belgium was the hub, thanks to Lemond. It's all in who starts the trend.

Kortrijk is still a hub in the spring.

Spain was/is a no-brainer... especially once the French anti doping laws became a bit more, uh, hazardous.

 

[BillytheKid]

And WHAT little hive of American riders first turned Girona into a little mini-enclave of Apple pie? We already know that not all riders had team-based doping programs. Many had to bring themselves to the dope and medical monitoring.

For a while, Kortrick (sp?) Belgium was the hub, thanks to Lemond. It's all in who starts the trend.

It's not an American invention, the sport and all sport have been long effected by it.

I do understand the anger over the Big Dog slipping the noose, but maybe not for long.

 

[BotanyBay]

Didn't the move to Girona start when the French police started to get nosy?

Yes it did. It was very sudden and a LOT of riders all went almost at the same time.

C'mon people. Those of you who know Lance. It's not like he is a truly "friendly" guy. You don't go over to his apt in Girona after a long day of training and play scrabble with him and Kik. And last I heard, JV was never really Lance's bud either, yet of all the pretty places in Spain, he picks that one?

 

[131313]

Yes it did. It was very sudden and a LOT of riders all went almost at the same time.

C'mon people. Those of you who know Lance. It's not like he is a truly "friendly" guy. You don't go over to his apt in Girona after a long day of training and play scrabble with him and Kik. And last I heard, JV was never really Lance's bud either, yet of all the pretty places in Spain, he picks that one?

I'm sure it played a part in why they went there in the first place....but so what? If I went over there it's certainly where I would have lived.

Where is an appropriate place for a rider to move to "appear clean"?

BTW, as far as Lance and Girona, despite the palace he owned there he was almost never there. I don't think JV really worried about running into him there.

 

[andy1234]

And WHAT little hive of American riders first turned Girona into a little mini-enclave of Apple pie? We already know that not all riders had team-based doping programs. Many had to bring themselves to the dope and medical monitoring.

For a while, Kortrick (sp?) Belgium was the hub, thanks to Lemond. It's all in who starts the trend.

The mentality used to be that Belgium was the best place to toughen up a rider.
Then someone realised that living in a rainy, grey area with sh*ty roads and bad food was actually just demoralising.

It wasn't living in Belgium that made champions, it's just seemed that way, because the only overseas riders who stayed in Belgium were the successful ones....

Racing at a high level in Europe is tough. You may as well live somewhere with nice weather and good food.

 

[JRTinMA]

Yes it did. It was very sudden and a LOT of riders all went almost at the same time.

C'mon people. Those of you who know Lance. It's not like he is a truly "friendly" guy. You don't go over to his apt in Girona after a long day of training and play scrabble with him and Kik. And last I heard, JV was never really Lance's bud either, yet of all the pretty places in Spain, he picks that one?

You may get invited to check the temp in the fridge. Relationships have to start someplace.

 

[MarkvW]

perhaps I'm too sceptic / suspicious.

but don't be surprised to someday learn that certain dodgy connections between Garmin and a certain Del Moral (or other Spanish 'doctors') turn out to have been more intense and longlasting than hitherto assumed.

to be sure: I'm just fishing here of course, and other places are indeed dodgy as well, but Spain is the dodgiest place of all, no doubt in my mind.

Also, we know Garmin is doping, else you don't win what they are winning. (you'll agree unless you're of the naive type)
So. we have one training camp in Spain, one Giro D'Italia, one DS who knows exactly how to mask doping.
Come on, join some dots.

We don't know Garmin is doping.

 

[Oldman]

The mentality used to be that Belgium was the best place to toughen up a rider.
Then someone realised that living in a rainy, grey area with sh*ty roads and bad food was actually just demoralising.

It wasn't living in Belgium that made champions, it's just seemed that way, because the only overseas riders who stayed in Belgium were the successful ones....

Racing at a high level in Europe is tough. You may as well live somewhere with nice weather and good food.

...and many Euros used to winter in San Diego. In the 2000's the need to bank blood changed all of that and Spain and the Canary Islands became all the rage; along with South Africa.

 

[MarkvW]

So your evidence is my emotional need. Do the doctors know your online ?

No evidence is slanderous my friend and my emotional need doesnt count.

Dude, engage your humor sensor.