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"USPS/Disco was clean. Never had a positive test."

Mar 10, 2009
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Vaughters: who better to give perspective than someone associated with Postal, Credit Agricole, and Garmin Slipstream?

I'm sure Vaughters heard, saw, and did a lot.

The most you will ever get out of anyone currently (even remotely) associated with cycling is veiled references to a dark, disappointing, disturbing past. They don't want their careers to end. Yet they know, somewhere in the crevices of their brains, their silence and lies of omission perpetuate the ingrained doping culture of cycling. And therein lies the problem.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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ElChingon said:
Rasmussen never tested positive!

Rasmussen returned non-negative EPO test

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September 28, 2007 - 8:29PM
AdvertisementAdvertisement

Dane Michael Rasmussen returned a non-negative test for the banned substance erythropoietin (EPO) during this year's Tour de France, the French Anti-Doping Agency (AFLD) says.

The result of the analysis of Rasmussen's urine sample cannot be declared positive for legal reasons.

"Traces of Dynepo, a biosimilar EPO, were found in Rasmussen's urine," AFLD President Pierre Bordry told Reuters by telephone.

"Rasmussen's test could not be declared positive because of the positivity criteria of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA)."

An EPO test is declared positive if the erythropoietin is obtained chemically.

However, Dynepo is made from human cells and it was originally feared by WADA that it could be mistaken with human EPO.

Rasmussen, who was leading the Tour de France when he was kicked out of the race, was sacked by his Rabobank team after they said he lied about his whereabouts during training.

© 2007 Reuters
 
So that says Rasmussen never tested positive, then, unless I've suddenly lost my grasp of English.

Far less credible than 6 bulls eyes from Big Tex, in 1999.

Instead of claiming USPS/Disco were clean, try and figure out how so many of their riders dropped a positive, after they jump ship.

If you are looking for conspiracy theories, there's more mileage in this one, than anything French.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Does anyone truly believe Garmin? They are lying. Astana might be exposed but Garmin will be the new USPS/ Disco...

Zabriskie destroyed some super-human level riders in California, like Gustov Larson who averaged over 480 watts for 35 minutes...
 
Rasmussen was shown to have doped through a test, but he was as "negative" in his test as Lance's 1999 samples.

Don't forget, Bjarne Riis is another one who never tested positive! Zabel too!

Actually, through the "go-go-go on EPO" 1990's, almost NO ONE tested positive for anything! Even Virenque and Festina only showed up positive when the police tested them!
 
Apr 9, 2009
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If Armstrong never doped how did he manage to beat all his closest rivals that did?
He is either taking some very good masking drugs, taking drugs that arent being tested for (Yet)
Or is so good a human athlete that he can beat people that take drugs.
I dont know how people still believe the latter. How can he do that? greta traing and lots of sleep ? come on guys wake up.
 
I cannot believe nobody has made this point yet as it stops this silly argument right away. Frankie Andreu & another unnamed rider both admitted to doping in 1999 whilst with US Postal. Lets not forget Andreu was a longtime friend and companion to Lance since his Motorola days. Many including myself felt Jonathan Vaughters was the other unidentified rider but he denies this.

I suggest everyone should also read this interview between Vaughters and Paul Kimmage before the Tour last year. Just cringe as Vaughters ducks & dives direct questions about his time at US Postal.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4232249.ece

Also remember Discovery Channel signed Basso whilst he was under investigation in connection with Operation Puerto.

Tyler Hamilton
Roberto Heras
Manuel Beltran
Floyd Landis
Gianpaolo Mondini
Kirk O'Bee

All former US Postal/Dico riders who later tested positive, hard to believe they only started after they left the team. Indeed Beltran was one of the other riders who tested positive for EPO in the retested 1999 Tour samples. So he was on the sauce before and after he was with US Postal but not on anything whilst there, come on!!!
Pavel Padrnos was also involved in a doping investigation whilst with US Postal.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Why can't people just leave this alone?

We all know by now every cyclist with a major or even mediocre performance during a certain period (let's say 1992 - 2006 to make it easy and bareable) was pumping his hematocrit. In the years with the 50+ rule but no good EPO-test, EPO basically became legal.

Dus laten we mekaar geen mietje noemen. :p



As a Dutchman, from now on as soon as somebody starts complaining about things like this i'll start a whine-campaign about how Thevenet doped Kuiper out of a tour win, or how Pedro Drogado cheated on Rooks. ;p
 
I cannot believe nobody has made this point yet as it stops this silly argument right away. Frankie Andreu & another unnamed rider both admitted to doping in 1999 whilst with US Postal. Lets not forget Andreu was a longtime friend and companion to Lance since his Motorola days. Many including myself felt Jonathan Vaughters was the other unidentified rider but he denies this.

I suggest everyone should also read this interview between Vaughters and Paul Kimmage before the Tour last year. Just cringe as Vaughters ducks & dives direct questions about his time at US Postal.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4232249.ece

Also remember Discovery Channel signed Basso whilst he was under investigation in connection with Operation Puerto.

Tyler Hamilton
Roberto Heras
Manuel Beltran
Floyd Landis
Gianpaolo Mondini
Kirk O'Bee

All former US Postal/Dico riders who later tested positive, hard to believe they only started after they left the team. Indeed Beltran was one of the other riders who tested positive for EPO in the retested 1999 Tour samples. So he was on the sauce before and after he was with US Postal but not on anything whilst there, come on!!!
Pavel Padrnos was also involved in a doping investigation whilst with US Postal.
 
You're right Ak-Saaf. I don't think anyone is arguing your speculation. But a lot of us want to warn of the future to make sure it doesn't happen again in such an egregious way.

Great to hear that Princeton is looking to make a Repoxygen test. I forget the MD/PhD head of the French genetic research institute who is helping create markers in all genetic drugs the same way Roche put markers in Micera. Let's hope this can spread on a global level. I fear, like the BBC investigation in China showed during the Olympics, that untested, black market stem-cell gene doping will be available. And that's flat out scary. As I said, not just because of the potential gains for athletes, but because long-term repercussions are unknown, and suspected immune system failure is a possible long term side effect. Imagine a slew of 20 year old cyclists pumping themselves with stem-cells, winning races for 5-10 years, and then finding out at 40 they have the equivalent of full-blown AIDS with zero t-cells left, and their liver and other organs are shutting down because their body started determining long ago that it doesn't need to produce anti-bodies anymore.

Agree on whomever pointed out about wattage output, if they start now, by 2010 they could easily have rider profiles for it. They should have started early this year, but at this point 2010 would work. It's really telling when some riders are putting out nearly 100 watts more than Eddy Merckx did in his time.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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@Alpe d'Huez:

I agree with you on the steps that need to be taken for the future. It's just that i'm getting really annoyed with the US Postal/Discovery discussion. I feel like people are so anxious to say: "Ha, Armstrong doped, and so did his team." that they lose perspective. I'm not trying to defend Armstrong, I'm just saying people are picking on the wrong guy.

Just look at Armstrongs last Tour de France. The guys who finished 2, 3 & 4 where later involved in the Fuentes fiasco, Vino got caught two years later during. I personally don't believe any of those guys got caught when they "first tried it / was planning on trying it".

Unless you're part of the Leipheimer fanclub (if there is one: you guys rule) you should agree the best rider won that year. And the years before that. Maybe we've had some guys going to the extreme and take a little more then they naturally deserved (hello, Bjarne) but those tales only add to the rich history of cycling.

If Henry Cornet deserved his win, so did Oscar Pereiro.
If Thevenet and Delgado got the appreciation, so should Lance and Bjarne.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
I suggest everyone should also read this interview between Vaughters and Paul Kimmage before the Tour last year. Just cringe as Vaughters ducks & dives direct questions about his time at US Postal.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4232249.ece

Great read, thanks for the link! It sheds light on the previous view of the changes Jonny V has in mind, and it sounds like once the current old-timers retire things will improve. Or I can at least hope they will.
 
Why can't people just leave this alone?

We all know by now every cyclist with a major or even mediocre performance during a certain period (let's say 1992 - 2006 to make it easy and bareable) was pumping his hematocrit. In the years with the 50+ rule but no good EPO-test, EPO basically became legal.

I understand where ak-zaaf is coming from regarding this issue, my own personal opinion since 1998 has never been to put my faith in any rider or team 100%, including Garmin or Columbia.

But the problem is most Lance fans dont agree with your statement above and are always keen to point this out, look how this thread started. I think most people on here agree with your view but cannot tolerate the one-eyed view of Lance fans, we all could ignore them but where is the fun in that, forums are about healthy debate, I think!!!

I think you have to remember cycling was at a cross-roads in 1999, there was a real possiblitiy the sport might have cleaned up then like it seems to be now.

Look at the Top 5 greatest list, Lance is nowhere but his profile is huge compared to any of these guys. 7 Tour victories, imagine if Lance had won his Tours with an attitude and openess similar to Garmin nowadays, surely more riders, teams would have followed and the sport would have been cleaner already. Maybe cycling wasnt ready back then for such an approach.

I dont believe Lance was any worse than any of his rivals but with his status and profile, I believe he could have made a real difference to clean up the sport but he didnt and that is why I dont really respect the guy.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
I dont believe Lance was any worse than any of his rivals but with his status and profile, I believe he could have made a real difference to clean up the sport but he didnt and that is why I dont really respect the guy.

Doping never stops... As long as there is money to be made it will never ever stop... The open attitude of Garmin is a lie... They wont even release power data!!

If Lance would have been "clean" he would never have been in a single Tour, let alone finished one.

I dont believe anyone will finish these Grand Tours clean... The pace is just seems way to high to me... Just looking at some power files during the Tour of California.
 
Apr 22, 2009
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o.k. ukpaul,
according to your logic... armstrong beat the dopers he must have doped.
so it follows that greg lemond doped because he had the fastest individual time trial in tour de france history. he is better than lance(in the itt) therefore he doped. kind of dopey logic,eh?;)
 
fdh.jpg


Can't we please let this subject die?
 
ak-zaaf said:
As a Dutchman, from now on as soon as somebody starts complaining about things like this i'll start a whine-campaign about how Thevenet doped Kuiper out of a tour win, or how Pedro Drogado cheated on Rooks. ;p

Don't make me laugh. Stephen Rooks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Rooks

Doping confession
On the Dutch TV-show Reporter, Rooks admitted (together with Maarten Ducrot and Peter Winnen that they had doped in their careers. Rooks said he used testosterone and amphetamines during his whole 13 year career.



As for people leaving this issue alone.
That's just another way of asking for mass denial.
Deny there is a doping problem and you multiply that problem.

Forums may only be a very minor contributor to the anti-doping fight, but if one rider thinks twice before cheating, it's worth it.

You cannot relegate a battle to history, while the battle continues.

If no one is held to account, you have governments who are prepared to pass momentous laws, like this one, just yesterday:-
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/...ee-to-prevent-night-time-doping-controls.html
 
Apr 9, 2009
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mountaingoat said:
o.k. ukpaul,
according to your logic... armstrong beat the dopers he must have doped.
so it follows that greg lemond doped because he had the fastest individual time trial in tour de france history. he is better than lance(in the itt) therefore he doped. kind of dopey logic,eh?;)

First off, what has Lemond have to do with Armstrong? just because he beat Fignon he dopes? I'm not saying that.
If we have proof that Fignon doped then I'd say yes he must of Doped too.
What I'm saying is you cant beat a very good athlete on drugs if your not on drugs.
 
ukpaul said:
First off, what has Lemond have to do with Armstrong? just because he beat Fignon he dopes? I'm not saying that.
If we have proof that Fignon doped then I'd say yes he must of Doped too.
What I'm saying is you cant beat a very good athlete on drugs if your not on drugs.

It depends on the drugs. Amphetamines and steroids are vastly different than EPO and blood transfusions. Clean athletes can win against those taking speed and steroids. Looking at the current research I do not see how a clean athlete can overcome the massive performance increase that comes from EPO and transfusions.

Some of these people really should look at the results of the final 1989 time trial. It was a super fast course.