Valverde/Vuelta/Any else lost intrest...

[auscyclefan94]

You are too optimistic. If the ban is upheld there, it will probably run through next season plus a few months of 2011, meaning Valverde will effectly serve a ban of only one season. He will also probably keep his Vuelta title.

Hmmm... I was thinking last night that the battle for vuelta title is still on as Sanchez,basso, gesink and evans were all still close to each other. now it's a three horse race with gesink out of it.

seriously, if valverde wins and then gets a ban this vuelta will be a big joke. The vuelta organisers will not take the title off him as he is spanish. If evans, basso or gesink were in his position they would of not even been allowed to start.

 

[msjett]

meh...Valverde may be the winner of the race in the end... but people will forever look upon him as a cheat,doper etc - proven or not. The race has been ok, for me far more interesting than the tour, have got to see some fresh faces win stages.

 

[Anonymous]

It frustrates me to no end how easily English speaking fans seem to equate non-English speaking riders with doping.
.

what because this caucasion, british, astheist, heterosexual male, thinks that the spanish rider is a cheat...?

Its more to do with the amount of evidence against him and the fact that one federation have already decided to ban him resulting in his exclusion from two tours, and that then with this cloud hanging over him he goes out and wins his home tour (along with of course the interesting situations where cadel gets time deducted for receiving a bottle after his bike change, gets followed by marshalls to make sure hes not getting a tow, yet valverde for receiving assistance on a climb, gets what, a few euro fine.. hmm)

I dont think hes a cheating **** because hes non english speaking.. i think hes a cheat because, well, i think hes a cheat.. I also think the spanish federation is corrupt to the core.. not because they dont speak english, but becuase they are corrupt as hell.. :/

 

[Galic Ho]

Perhaps, ironically, this is what 'clean' racing is like.

No one that really stands out, because all of the GC contenders are at their maximum. If the blood passport limits the extent of doping (or entirely bans it from racing), so as to force everyone to ride within the same bandwidth, how can someone be exceptionally better than the rest?

The margins of excellence have become the same for the ones at the top...

I disagree. Take tour winning times for example:

1986 Tour de France. Lemond won. Hinault 3'10" behind with Zimmermann 10'54" filling the podium. If the top two hadn't have finished and times were the same for the remaining peloton Zimmermann would have won by 7'50" over Andy Hampsten and 13'42" from Claude Criquielion.

1983 Tour de France. Fignon led Hinault by 10'32" and Lemond rounded out the podium in 11'46".

1981 Tour was an even bigger joke. Hinault was in league of his own. Lucien Van Impe came second by 14'31" and Robert Alban placed third in 17'04".

1979 an even further insult to the competition. 1st Bernard Hinault, 2nd Joop Zoetemelk,13' 07" back. If Hinault slipped on the final day, Zoetemelk would have won by a similar margin as Joaquim Agostinho was 13'46" behind Joop in third place.

All these times make the current times look odd. All pre-epo era. The only GT finish of recent times that a rider annihilated the oposition by margins like those above was in the 2006 Giro and few would doubt Basso was juicing.

It all really comes down to who really is talented. In a clean peloton I believe we'd stop seeing the boys with VO2 max scores in the low to mid 80s winning grand tours. The one or two boys who top 90 clean would pants everyone by margins like those I showed. To those who argue Van Impe and Zoetemelk were older when racing Hinault, you'd be right, but Merckx still beat them by 10 and 11 minutes respectively when they podiumed a decade earlier in 1971.

I actually think that the current peloton having such similar times indicates an almost level playing field in the sense that they are all using similar doping programs. The odd one or two freaks who would win in a clean peloton, like a Hinault or Lemond, men who have VO2 max scores between 92 and 95 aren't guaranteed to win clean when the men in the low 80 range jack up. So yes everyone is allowed to ride in the same bandwidth, however not because of a blood passport like Bala Verde claimed, but in spite of it thanks to doping evening the field of competition. Team tactics play a part too, but only to a small degree.

Bye the way I can't explain Contador. He's just a freak, an amazing one, who rides like the wind.

 

[elapid]

There is no evidence Valverde ever did anything differently than his rivals--his name and blood simply came up in Puerto (just like Ulle, Basso, Contador, etc). Riders exposed by Puerto did not test positive, they didn't break the rules of the peloton, so it's no surprise or secret that the UCI is doing everything possible to protect them.

While I have no wish for Valverde to be made into the OP scapegoat by CONI and the UCI, CONI DNA linked Valverde with the valv.piti blood bags and these bags contained EPO. So in effect Valverde has tested positive. Other than pointing this out, I do not agree with CONI's actions and I do not think Valverde should be suspended when nearly everyone else implicated in OP has not been sanctioned.

 

[Bala Verde]

I disagree. Take tour winning times for example:

...

Good points!

However, I don't think the pre-EPO tour winning times and the relative distance between 1-2-3 tell the whole story though. The speeds in the pre-EPO era were much lower, averaging 36-37 km/h, but not only because of the lack of doping.

In those times you'd see Merkcx or whoever attack from km 15 and stay away from the bunch the whole day. Certainly tactics/strategies have made this virtually impossible, namely through the formation of dedicated teams that set the pace. Add to that progress made in other fields, like improved communication/information about escapees positions and time difference, more professional teams with better equipment, faster wheel changes (in some cases), more aero clothing (wool/cotton vs Garmin's skinsuits) and the pace goes up, even if it's just a little bit.

We haven't even begun to talk about 'cycling academies' that focus on training young riders, this years Tour L'avenir was done in 30h33m34s over approx 1300km, which makes an average of 42.5km/h. Obviously, this would also lead to an increase in the overall pool of well trained cyclists, which would produce more or make more visible the 'talented freaks'.

When progress is made in these fields, the issue of 'diminishing returns' becomes important. 'Diminishing returns', the way I use it, is an increase in effort/input that doesn't equate to an identical increase in output, rather, the output progressively decreases. It is one thing to go from 36.5 km to 37.5 km/h, but it is much harder to go from 37.5 to 38.5. At the moment, riders are battling to increase speeds with fractions or maintain high speeds for an additional minute at most.

Solely because cycling becomes more professional - even without doping - I think you would see that time differences are getting smaller and smaller. It becomes much more difficult to make a significant difference, because more talented riders are competing at their absolute limits (we now have 3 Hinaults or Lemonds per GT instead of one). When a rider excels now, it only becomes apparent when he takes a couple of seconds instead of minutes.

Bio passport riding still - IMO - sets the bandwith for people to use doping, so that no one is competing at 60% hematocrit. The laws of diminishing returns are somewhat consolidated through the passport.

 

[sashimono]

...Solely because cycling becomes more professional - even without doping - I think you would see that time differences are getting smaller and smaller. It becomes much more difficult to make a significant difference, because more talented riders are competing at their absolute limits (we now have 3 Hinaults or Lemonds per GT instead of one). When a rider excels now, it only becomes apparent when he takes a couple of seconds instead of minutes...

Interesting points. I think it would be true if cycling only involved speed. But its got tactics and complexity. I think cycling may be more like golf where 10 years ago people were saying a similar thing -- namely nobody would ever beat Jack's records because there was so much depth and talent on tour that it created a kind of parity et cetera. Then..

 

[Bala Verde]

Interesting points. I think it would be true if cycling only involved speed. But its got tactics and complexity. I think cycling may be more like golf where 10 years ago people were saying a similar thing -- namely nobody would ever beat Jack's records because there was so much depth and talent on tour that it created a kind of parity et cetera. Then..

I did emphasize the evolution in tactics as well, I was talking about the professionalization of cycling, including material, training, tactics and strategy... All of those have led to an increase in the avg speed - which is still a major factor in the field of cycling - after which I turned to diminishing returns (DR). DR however is input/energy - output/speed, so it takes effort, and implictly recovery into consideration as well.

The increased speed then again forces cycling dynamics to change even further - ie not do suicide solo attacks from the start as they are 99% doomed to fail, preserve as much energy as possible to make a difference in the last 1-2km on a mountain top finish.

I know too little about golf but I fail to see how that can even remotely compare to cycling...

 

[pmcg76]

This Vuelta had a lot of potential with the top six so close on time at the midway point but just never developed into the great battle we anticipated. Time Bonus, Mechanicals and Crashes have been the main difference between the top guys, there were no great battles in the mountains, only the stage to La Pandera was relatively exciting.

I was dissappointed with the performances of the younger guys who were expected to shine like Fuglsang, Dan Martin & Kessiakoff, they have failed to perform for whatever reasons.

On the other hands there have been new unexpected names showing up like Bozic, Tiralongo and of course the highlight fot me, Philip Deignan.

Overall, the Vuelta has been better than the Tour but failed to develop into the race hoped for.

 

[53x11 in DC]

You are too optimistic. If the ban is upheld there, it will probably run through next season plus a few months of 2011, meaning Valverde will effectly serve a ban of only one season. He will also probably keep his Vuelta title.

Not sure about that - I believe there's a fairly strong desire by authorities to vacate this season's results, including this (now sealed) Vuelta.

 

[rhubroma]

While I have no wish for Valverde to be made into the OP scapegoat by CONI and the UCI, CONI DNA linked Valverde with the valv.piti blood bags and these bags contained EPO. So in effect Valverde has tested positive. Other than pointing this out, I do not agree with CONI's actions and I do not think Valverde should be suspended when nearly everyone else implicated in OP has not been sanctioned.

Yea, just like the Basso-Scarponi "scapegoats."

Though they had to serve their suspensions, while Basso's career came to grinding halt when he was about to have a good shot at doing the Giro-Tour double as a result of OP.

I have no problem with Valverde as a person, I just don't like that the Spanish sports establishment has protected him and other nationals (Contador?) and thus also maintained the disgusting omertà which continues to destroy the credibility of this sport.

In other words, their have been two measurments calculated for the same weight: Basso's association with Dr. Fuente's and Valverde's. One has his career in part ruined, the other is about to be crowned the Vuelta champion without having to ever pay a (real and universal) penalty for the same offence.

Both riders had bloodbags with Fuentes, only one gets punished.

Now either no one gets punished, or all that are found out get punished to the same degree in democratic fasion. By contrast the UCI and the Spanish sport establishment have conducted themselves in the most shamefully anti-democratic and thus tyrannical of ways.

And whatever CONI's motivations may have been, the fact is that they got a DNA match between "Valv-Piti" and Valverde; and thus irrefutable proof that the later was just as involved with OP as Basso and the others were who have been positvely identified and temporarily disqualified.
Yet Valverde continues to go unpunished beyond the Italian borders and is consequently making an utter mockery of the entire notion of equitable treatment for the culprits and of justice in the UCI's efforts to clean up the sport.

Either they really want a clean/er sport in which the guilty all recieve their due punishment, or they should simply put an end to this present farce and hypocrisy.

So Valverde wins the Vuelta and the sport looses another huge battle to gain credibility. The flagrant disregard for even a modicum of democratic principles governing the sport as a whole, makes the entire charade rather comical and grotesque in its absurdity. Like the follies of Nero and the satire of Petronius.

 

[Anonymous]

if the UCI had the balls to stand up and say the italians where right, and ban him, or the italians where wrong, we wouldnt have to have this conversation.. :/

 

[rhubroma]

if the UCI had the balls to stand up and say the italians where right, and ban him, or the italians where wrong, we wouldnt have to have this conversation.. :/

You said it mate....the balls.

Of course they don't have the balls, which is why we have to have this conversation.

PS: You may find distasteful CONI's motivations in this case, though that doesn't make them a criminal organization. And one would be a fool to think they falsified the match. Thus, naturally, the Italians are "right."

And if anybody (that is any body) has acted in a mob fashion here, it's the Spanish sporting establishment, which makes the UCI seem like a mere tool to those national governing sport bodies which do their best work to cover up how widespread doping is (and not just in cycling). For there were about 200 athletes involved with OP, and only about 50 or so were cyclists (though only cyclists have been punished of course). The UCI knows fully that Spain did what it had to do to save face and also the financial interests of the sporting establishment in general, which are directly threatened if all the skeletons in the OP closet were to come out.

So we get the usual cover-up by the powers that be, a few athletes sacrificed at the altar of corporate sponsorship, upon which the governing bodies like the UCI rely upon for profit and, therefore, whose interests (not getting rid of doping) they fiercely aim to protect.

So a little catching of a few culprits is fine, so long is it isn't too many or else its bad pr and the corporations start threating to withdraw sponsorship.

A disgusting farce, just as it is hypocritical. But it's the best they can do and all we ever, have ever and will ever get. Unless human nature changes, but that's never going to happen.

 

[Anonymous]

where do the UCI currently stand on the whole Valverde case anyway...?

ongoing, doing nothing, still looking at italian evidence, still smoozing the spanish..

do we know whats ACTAULLY going on?

edit: ok googled and found this from the 9th
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/valverde-free-to-race-until-end-of-2009-season
this is what happens when you dont actually go to cycling news anymore.. you miss stuff..

so in a nutshell, the italians have banned him, the uci want him banned worldwide and dont want him at the worlds, but the spanish are refusing to co-operate?

 

[BroDeal]

Not sure about that - I believe there's a fairly strong desire by authorities to vacate this season's results, including this (now sealed) Vuelta.

Sure. Those Spanish authorities are just dying to ban him; and the Vuelta organizers, along with organizers from other races he has won this year, all of whom could have refused to let him race, are just dying to vacate his results.

 

[Cobber]

Sure. Those Spanish authorities are just dying to ban him; and the Vuelta organizers, along with organizers from other races he has won this year, all of whom could have refused to let him race, are just dying to vacate his results.

I guess they may be more willing to do this now that Sanchez has sealed 2nd place.

 

[Escarabajo]

This Vuelta had a lot of potential with the top six so close on time at the midway point but just never developed into the great battle we anticipated. Time Bonus, Mechanicals and Crashes have been the main difference between the top guys, there were no great battles in the mountains, only the stage to La Pandera was relatively exciting.

I was dissappointed with the performances of the younger guys who were expected to shine like Fuglsang, Dan Martin & Kessiakoff, they have failed to perform for whatever reasons.

On the other hands there have been new unexpected names showing up like Bozic, Tiralongo and of course the highlight fot me, Philip Deignan.

...

+1.

It is worth repeating Balaverde comments about that this is what the Vuelta looks under the controlled Bio Passport program. Nobody outstanding and everybody close to the max. So no spectacular actions like the Pantani's or Vandenbroucke's in the Tour and La Vuelta respectively.

 

[auscyclefan94]

if the UCI had the balls to stand up and say the italians where right, and ban him, or the italians where wrong, we wouldnt have to have this conversation.. :/

Like LA, UCI have no balls!

 

[Galic Ho]

Good points!

However, I don't think the pre-EPO tour winning times and the relative distance between 1-2-3 tell the whole story though. The speeds in the pre-EPO era were much lower, averaging 36-37 km/h, but not only because of the lack of doping.

I realised after I posted that I hadn't mentioned average speeds. Merckx won in times that were averaging in the 35-36km/h range. When he didn't race in 1974 they dropped by 2 km/h. Hinault, Fignon and Lemond pushed the times in the 80's up to 38-39km/h. Which makes sense when factoring in all of your points. Better, equipment, roads, training, nutrition and management.

After 1990, well it gets too fast. After LA claimed last years tour was a joke I looked at the average speed for 2008. Still in the 40-41km/h range. Which is fair enough, it matches all the other years this decade.

Average times aren't really whats important, the strategy and tactics are whats needed to be analysed. Too hard a task though. Not all components of a stage are raced full throttle. Mostly it happens in the last 50-100km, where the breakaway is pulled back. The idea would be to compare the actual racing parts, the climbs and ITT. Check the wattages and VAM (I don't like using the last one but its the only real method to measure climbing). They're not the same as older tours where the average speed was much lower. But I might add, the older tours often raced up to 4000km over 25 stages. Greater distances explain partly the slower times.

All the variables need to be considered.

Now either no one gets punished, or all that are found out get punished to the same degree in democratic fasion. By contrast the UCI and the Spanish sport establishment have conducted themselves in the most shamefully anti-democratic and thus tyrannical of ways.

And whatever CONI's motivations may have been, the fact is that they got a DNA match between "Valv-Piti" and Valverde; and thus irrefutable proof that the later was just as involved with OP as Basso and the others were who have been positvely identified and temporarily disqualified.

I wouldn't label the Spanish authorites anti-democratic. The Minister for Sport wanted results years ago converning Puerto. She didn't get what she asked because of the law. Judge Serrano cannot release the evidence for sporting fraud crimes because the original investigation by the Guardia Civil after Jesus Manzano's confession was regarding public health practices. Which brings me to CONI. Its quite possible they acted illegally. Valverde should not be sanctioned, not because he isn't guilty (he likely is) but because the over zealous Italians jumped the gun and tried to even the justice being dished out by sanctioning a Spanish rider the calibre of Basso. Revenge.

If the Spanish Minister for Sport can't access the data and evidence how in the hell can a foreign government body legally obtain data necessary to do a dna match? They can't. If they had Valverde would have been banned globally by now. All of which leads me to believe in all probability Valverde will be cleared. Maybe not is Italy, but elsewhere he should be clear to ride.

 

[Escarabajo]

...
I wouldn't label the Spanish authorites anti-democratic. The Minister for Sport wanted results years ago converning Puerto. She didn't get what she asked because of the law. Judge Serrano cannot release the evidence for sporting fraud crimes because the original investigation by the Guardia Civil after Jesus Manzano's confession was regarding public health practices. Which brings me to CONI. Its quite possible they acted illegally. Valverde should not be sanctioned, not because he isn't guilty (he likely is) but because the over zealous Italians jumped the gun and tried to even the justice being dished out by sanctioning a Spanish rider the calibre of Basso. Revenge.

If the Spanish Minister for Sport can't access the data and evidence how in the hell can a foreign government body legally obtain data necessary to do a dna match? They can't. If they had Valverde would have been banned globally by now. All of which leads me to believe in all probability Valverde will be cleared. Maybe not is Italy, but elsewhere he should be clear to ride.

+1. This is one of the best explanations I have read about Valverde's situation.

It boils down to what the law dictated at that moment in Spain.

 

[pedaling squares]

If the Spanish Minister for Sport can't access the data and evidence how in the hell can a foreign government body legally obtain data necessary to do a dna match? They can't. If they had Valverde would have been banned globally by now. All of which leads me to believe in all probability Valverde will be cleared. Maybe not is Italy, but elsewhere he should be clear to ride.

I follow your reasoning, but have limited knowledge about Puerto. How then did the German authorities access the DNA records that they used to confirm that Ullrich's blood was in the bags? I am assuming it was German authorities who raided Ullrich's house.

 

[Escarabajo]

I follow your reasoning, but have limited knowledge about Puerto. How then did the German authorities access the DNA records that they used to confirm that Ullrich's blood was in the bags? I am assuming it was German authorities who raided Ullrich's house.

I am not sure about it, but as far as I remember there was a substitute judge from when judge Serrano was on vacation who authorized some of the samples to be taken from the blood bags. When Serrano came from vacation it closed OP immediately. You may want to check that with somebody else in this forum.

 

[Galic Ho]

I am not sure about it, but as far as I remember there was a substitute judge from when judge Serrano was on vacation who authorized some of the samples to be taken from the blood bags. When Serrano came from vacation it closed OP immediately. You may want to check that with somebody else in this forum.

Very early on in the Puerto investigation the Swiss and Germans asked for samples, ie: the dna profiles. I don't know if they got them but they did provide samples for the big names that sprung up early on. They wanted to know the truth. There was another judge involved but because Ullrich isn't Spanish the authorities in Spain didn't care if the Swiss/Germans gave them Ullrich's dna. I remember reading JU's had his house raided and he was caught from dna in his bathroom...a toothbrush I believe. This could all just be rumour though...read it a few years back. Basso was finally nabbed through a lot of peer pressure. I think the Italians caved and gave a sample which matched one of the bags. Is it fair? Hell no, but they can race without worrying about a ban. Something Valverde can't do.

 

[rhubroma]

I wouldn't label the Spanish authorites anti-democratic. The Minister for Sport wanted results years ago converning Puerto. She didn't get what she asked because of the law. Judge Serrano cannot release the evidence for sporting fraud crimes because the original investigation by the Guardia Civil after Jesus Manzano's confession was regarding public health practices. Which brings me to CONI. Its quite possible they acted illegally. Valverde should not be sanctioned, not because he isn't guilty (he likely is) but because the over zealous Italians jumped the gun and tried to even the justice being dished out by sanctioning a Spanish rider the calibre of Basso. Revenge.

If the Spanish Minister for Sport can't access the data and evidence how in the hell can a foreign government body legally obtain data necessary to do a dna match? They can't. If they had Valverde would have been banned globally by now. All of which leads me to believe in all probability Valverde will be cleared. Maybe not is Italy, but elsewhere he should be clear to ride.

You're a lawyer right???

Of course you realize that someone who behaved criminally (Valve-Piti/Valverde) according to the doping laws of international sport, has been held unaccountable according to the very grotesque logic that in Spain organized doping (out of competition I presume) at the time was not a criminal offence but a public health issue that's all. And that the culprit in spite of his guiltyness should be legaly protected and thus get away with murder, because of a similar shamefull logic that a foreign authority in getting data which Spain could not legally release (according to a judge Serrano, though not another who released the data to CONI) has behaved "illegally."

Thus the lions become lambs and vice-versa. Meanwhile others (Basso-Scarponi) who were involved with the same OP scandal get none of the protection which the Spaniards enjoy, though at once have to face the full wrath of their national authorities. How perverse!

One wonders why the hell didn't Spain have a doping law up to the standards of France, Italy, Germany, etc.? Was it because the Spanish knew what was going on with their medics, how vast and grave was their system, and simply couldn't blow the cover lest the nation's triumphant image in spot be destroyed? Were the economic insentives prohibitve in seeing real justice being done? And why have only cyclists been exposed (who are the other circa 150 athletes in Fuentes books: footballers, swimmers, tenis players)?

These are the answers many of us want. Instead we only get the scandalous cover-up, the flagrant injustices, the hypocrisy and the perverse and anti-democratic logic which you have brought to light, that only makes us want to vomit on the threashold of the establisment in Spain.

 

[Galic Ho]

You're a lawyer right???

No, but close. My dad was a lawyer but I did not gain any legal knowledge from him. That happened at university. One of my degree's had a considerable portion of law subjects, which were interesting and taught me one or two things. Never stop questioning. Oh and the law is a subjective *****!

Of course you realize that someone who behaved criminally (Valve-Piti/Valverde) according to the doping laws of international sport, has been held unaccountable according to the very grotesque logic that in Spain organized doping (out of competition I presume) at the time was not a criminal offence but a public health issue that's all. And that the culprit in spite of his guiltyness should be legaly protected and thus get away with murder, because of a similar shamefull logic that a foreign authority in getting data which Spain could not legally release (according to a judge Serrano, though not another who released the data to CONI) has behaved "illegally."

Yes I agree. It is a shambles but the main responsibility lies with the UCI and WADA. They have disciplinary powers. I've been fortunate enough to study regulation and the effects of regulative bodies and the theories concerning their behaviour and construction. CONI have been doing well in an anti-doping sense. Spain, hmmnnn, considering I've heard you can walk into a chemist/pharmicist and buy epo off the shelf, there is little more too add. I agree Valverde is in all likelihood guilty, but the law is the law. Most laws regarding companies were formed in the 1800's to protect owner rights and exploit those beneath them...not all laws look nice, but they hold sway. Murderers and rapists have been let go because due-process and legal rights have not been followed...it sucks but Puerto should have been dealt with in 2006. The lack of backbone by authorities is a common recurring theme when doping is concerned in most sports.

One wonders why the hell didn't Spain have a doping law up to the standards of France, Italy, Germany, etc.? Was it because the Spanish knew what was going on with their medics, how vast and grave was their system, and simply couldn't blow the cover lest the nation's triumphant image in spot be destroyed? Were the economic insentives prohibitve in seeing real justice being done? And why have only cyclists been exposed (who are the other circa 150 athletes in Fuentes books: footballers, swimmers, tenis players)?

I'd like to know as well about the 150 missing names on Fuentes blacklist. They are most likely La Liga players from Barcelona, Real Madrid and pro tennis players. Two sports that have strong players union. FIFA were asked earlier this year to allow WADA and national bodies to test players outside of competition. They were politely told to sod off. Sad that the testing and scrutiny cyclists are put through doesn't translate to other sports. But not surprising given FIFA refuses to tackle the issue of players diving or bring in video referees.

These are the answers many of us want. Instead we only get the scandalous cover-up, the flagrant injustices, the hypocrisy and the perverse and anti-democratic logic which you have brought to light, that only makes us want to vomit on the threashold of the establisment in Spain.

In a system of unscrupulous physical supplements and therapeutic recovery even the hopes of ardent supporters will be strained. In such a reality the idea of balance and accountability is an all too rare desirable trait rather than a given asset. I take hope in that at least the Spanish minister for Sport wanted results and had her hands tied. There are good just people in powerful positions of influence...we just need more.