Valverde?

[Hugh Januss]

I thought they were originally all in the same ring with Emannulle

Never heard Di Lucca, Vino probably but I don't think he was ever one that was named (don't remember). No evidence that anything would have ever happened to Vino if he hadn't tested positive.

 

[elapid]

Remember, Alejandro has never owned/met a dog called Piti, therefore he can't get suspended. How stupid of people to think he doped just because his name was mentioned in relation to a dog which he has never heard of. For all we know it was Piti's (the dog!) blood. Afterall, Fuentes knows no boundaries.

But Valverde's DNA from blood taken during an Italian race = DNA from the bag of blood labelled Valv_Piti. The evidence is definitely there, but it is the means by which this evidence was collected (considering the Spanish legal system stated that these bags of blood could not be used for future legal cases against any athlete) and the legality of CONI banning a non-Italian athlete which will produce the greater controversy.

 

[elapid]

how come ullrich, basso Di Lucca and vino were nailed but val-piti walked>

As others have said, Ullrich retired without testing positive, Basso admitted to his guilt without testing positive (as did Scarponi and Jaschke), and Di Luca and Vino tested positive, but they tested positive during race checks and these positives were not because of Operacion Puerto.

The only athletes who were suspended because of their involvement in Operacion Puerto (Basso, Scarponi and Jaschke) were all suspended because they admitted to their involvement, but none ever tested positive to a banned substance or had their DNA linked to bags of blood. Legally, this should not be possible either because the Spanish judiciary ruled that these bags of blood could not be used for future legal proceedings against athletes. They made this ruling because at the time doping was only illegal if it harmed the health of the athletes. This has since been changed, but the law cannot be applied retroactively to the Operacion Puerto case.

 

[icefire]

elapid argument is more or less correct.

Blood bags from OP were requested by Italy's Justice under an agreement of collaboration between Justice administrations of different European countries. This agreement allows the exchange of evidences (and also the extradition of alleged criminals) subject to two conditions:

* The criminal offence in the demanding country is also recognised as such in the country of origin
* Any verdict or judgment made based on the evidences can be appealed to a Court of Justice

None of these apply in Valverde's case:
- Doping was not a criminal offence in Spain in 2006. Doctors could be prosecuted then for bad medical practices, as well as team managers, but athletes could not.
- CONI's verdict cannot be appealed to a Court of Justice

Judge Serrano knew this and rejected all demands from Italy's justice. But Italy's justice made the trick to send the request when Judge Serrano was on leave and his deputy wasn't aware of the game.

Link here (in Spanish):
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2010/02/04/ciclismo/1265306949.html

Google translation does a decent job here:
http://translate.google.com/transla...10/02/04/ciclismo/1265306949.html&sl=es&tl=en

 

[flicker]

I am curious why Oscar Sevilla and Botero both quality riders are or were riding for ROCK. Heras another?

Were they also implicated?

 

[flicker]

I am curious why Oscar Sevilla and Botero both quality riders are or were riding for ROCK. Heras

Were they also implicated?

 

[elapid]

I am curious why Oscar Sevilla and Botero both quality riders are or were riding for ROCK. Heras

Were they also implicated?

Yes, all three were implicated. Heras had already retired, so a mute point to some degree. Botero was implicated, but he was cleared by the Colombian authorities. Sevilla was also implicated, but not cleared, charged or suspended.

Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of all the riders implicated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operación_Puerto_doping_case

 

[frenchfry]

elapid argument is more or less correct.

Blood bags from OP were requested by Italy's Justice under an agreement of collaboration between Justice administrations of different European countries. This agreement allows the exchange of evidences (and also the extradition of alleged criminals) subject to two conditions:

* The criminal offence in the demanding country is also recognised as such in the country of origin
* Any verdict or judgment made based on the evidences can be appealed to a Court of Justice

None of these apply in Valverde's case:
- Doping was not a criminal offence in Spain in 2006. Doctors could be prosecuted then for bad medical practices, as well as team managers, but athletes could not.
- CONI's verdict cannot be appealed to a Court of Justice

Judge Serrano knew this and rejected all demands from Italy's justice. But Italy's justice made the trick to send the request when Judge Serrano was on leave and his deputy wasn't aware of the game.

Link here (in Spanish):
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2010/02/04/ciclismo/1265306949.html

Google translation does a decent job here:
http://translate.google.com/transla...10/02/04/ciclismo/1265306949.html&sl=es&tl=en

Serrano should be given an UCI medal for service above and beyond the call of duty.

 

[amrstrongvscontador2010]

its simple , valverde is spanish , they will forever protect him

 

[Ferminal]

But Valverde's DNA from blood taken during an Italian race = DNA from the bag of blood labelled Valv_Piti. The evidence is definitely there, but it is the means by which this evidence was collected (considering the Spanish legal system stated that these bags of blood could not be used for future legal cases against any athlete) and the legality of CONI banning a non-Italian athlete which will produce the greater controversy.

I'm only going on what Valverde said at CAS recently, why shouldn't we believe him?

 

[Kerbdog]

Its as simple as this folks. For all those who spend their days typing in the clinic & give out about Armstrong et al etc etc. The day you "get over" the whole Valverde Operacion Puerto thing is the day you too gave up on the fight against doping in the sport. You let this go then it will be something else. Its like the *** who came on here defending Joe Papp selling drugs to cyclists but "hey its ok he posts here to all of us & i personally know him & i can tell you he is a very nice guy, educated too oh yes".
Go on now & give out about McQuaid turning a blind eye etc etc etc.
Send Valverde to the social welfare que & sicken me no more.
And when your finished reading the above do me a favour & leave a tip on the way out.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Why did this guy never get a two year ban? It seems pretty ridiculous that a guy that was caught doping and given a trial is still able to ride his bike and win Grand Tours. I don't understand it at all.

Because UCI is corrupt (no sanctions to Murcia), because Eurosport is corrupt (sending Plant Armstrong), and yes folks at cyclingnews, your are corrupt too. You fear some fans would go away if you just DONT bring news of Murcia. Why dont you have the ball$, risking some dirty dollars to show the organizers that we fans are tired over cover up. Susan Westermeyer, have the ball$ and stop bringing news about murcia. That would be a good start. Show some real moral and boycott Murcia. We true fans in the clinic would apriciate it. It would be a good start to show the governing bodies enough is enough for us fans. You as media have the power. Its a shame you write about Murcia. We fans are tired of cover up just to gain some dirty dollars more.

 

[craig1985]

Because UCI is corrupt (no sanctions to Murcia), because Eurosport is corrupt (sending Plant Armstrong), and yes folks at cyclingnews, your are corrupt too. You fear some fans would go away if you just DONT bring news of Murcia. Why dont you have the ball$, risking some dirty dollars to show the organizers that we fans are tired over cover up. Susan Westermeyer, have the ball$ and stop bringing news about murcia. That would be a good start. Show some real moral and boycott Murcia. We true fans in the clinic would apriciate it. It would be a good start to show the governing bodies enough is enough for us fans. You as media have the power. Its a shame you write about Murcia. We fans are tired of cover up just to gain some dirty dollars more.

How's your view from your high horse?

Back on topic, how much power does CAS have? I mean if CAS makes Valverde's ban in Italy a global one, and seeing that Valverde can afford the best legal team in town, can he go above CAS and appeal the decision? Where and what court would this be, and if the court over rules CAS' decision, would it just make CAS irrelevant?

 

[Galic Ho]

Ok, same as Basso and Armstrong. Ullrich wasn't ever convicted or tested positive, he just retired before they had the chance.

The Swedish and German authorites came to Ullrich's house with a warrant and took dna samples from his bathroom. They had evidence on him just like Basso. Solid DNA evidence. Valverde is another thing all together. Assuming the blood bag did exist and their is a DNA profile for it, the evidence cannot be used in any investigation because it was sealed by judge Serrano. I never figured out how CONI got their hands on it till I read an explanation by a new member of the forum. CONI waited till Serrano was on holidays and skimped their way to the file. Illegal and dodgy. Vengeance? Yep.

Valverde will never sit out a ban for this and he shouldn't. The Italians went too far. CONI should take a trip down to AC Milan and test every ****** running around over 30. AC Milan are famous for their medical wonder program that extends the longevity of players careers into their late 30s. Anyone care to take a punt at who the most recent, plus fashionably famous and rich, exponent and convert to this program is? Good old golden balls himself. Don't think too hard...he is a Pom if you're struggling to think of names, who regained his early career form these last 2 years.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The Swedish and German authorites came to Ullrich's house......

The Swedish?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

How's your view from your high horse?

Back on topic, how much power does CAS have? I mean if CAS makes Valverde's ban in Italy a global one, and seeing that Valverde can afford the best legal team in town, can he go above CAS and appeal the decision? Where and what court would this be, and if the court over rules CAS' decision, would it just make CAS irrelevant?

A couple of points here, there are 2 CAS cases against Valverde.

The first case, CAS have already ruled on Valverdes suspension in Italy- in short, it ruled that CONI were competent to do so and had done nothing illegal. However CONI only have power to ban in their own juritstriction - so the ban can not be made global from CONIs involvement.

The second CAS case is the one that will be giving Valpiti sleepless nights.
The UCI received papers from the Puerto investigation - in it they said that Valverde has a case to answer.
The UCI passed that info on to the Spanish Fed (RFEC), who said there was not enough evidence to proceed with a case against Valverde. Both the UCI & WADA have taken a case against the RFEC to get them to start a case against Valverde. This case is due before CASjurisdiction 18-21 March.

I am quite critical of the UCI - but this mess lies at the feet of the REFC.

 

[elapid]

Back on topic, how much power does CAS have? I mean if CAS makes Valverde's ban in Italy a global one, and seeing that Valverde can afford the best legal team in town, can he go above CAS and appeal the decision? Where and what court would this be, and if the court over rules CAS' decision, would it just make CAS irrelevant?

CAS is the equivalent of the High or Supreme Court. The CAS are as high as you can go, and athletes cannot go to a higher court to appeal their decision.

 

[python]

CAS is the equivalent of the High or Supreme Court. The CAS are as high as you can go, and athletes cannot go to a higher court to appeal their decision.

strictly speaking this is not a correct statement. iirc, cas's charter allows cas's decision to be be elevated to the supreme court of switzerland. there were case. but not many.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

strictly speaking this is not a correct statement. iirc, cas's charter allows cas's decision to be be elevated to the supreme court of switzerland. there were case. but not many.

I am pretty sure that has changed.
IIRC a case was sent to the Swiss Supreme Court who ruled that CAS is a true court of arbitration.
It is up to the International Federations (ie UCI,UEFA etc) to sign up and recognize CAS have the competency to make binding judgment's.

 

[python]

I am pretty sure that has changed.
IIRC a case was sent to the Swiss Supreme Court who ruled that CAS is a true court of arbitration.
It is up to the International Federations (ie UCI,UEFA etc) to sign up and recognize CAS have the competency to make binding judgment's.

please back your statement that it changed with an example or a link or a case.

i am aware of a case (about a half year ago) when the swiss federal supreme court took up and ruled upon a complaint against cas's decision.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

please back your statement that it changed with an example or a link or a case.

i am aware of a case (about a half year ago) when the swiss federal supreme court took up and ruled upon a complaint against cas's decision.

This is from the CAS website:
Is it possible to appeal against a CAS award ?
Judicial recourse to the Swiss Federal Tribunal is allowed on a very limited number of grounds, such as lack of jurisdiction, violation of elementary procedural rules (e.g. violation of the right to a fair hearing) or incompatibility with public policy.** **

As I said I am going off memory, a case was taken some years ago and CAS had to change their procedures - I will search for the original case but I am pretty sure it was because they were part of the IOC and there was a question of impartiality.

 

[python]

This is from the CAS website:
Is it possible to appeal against a CAS award ?
Judicial recourse to the Swiss Federal Tribunal is allowed on a very limited number of grounds, such as lack of jurisdiction, violation of elementary procedural rules (e.g. violation of the right to a fair hearing) or incompatibility with public policy.** **

As I said I am going off memory, a case was taken some years ago and CAS had to change their procedures - I will search for the original case but I am pretty sure it was because they were part of the IOC and there was a question of impartiality.

the issue was as raised by elapid:

athletes cannot go to a higher court to appeal their decision.

i commented that this is not strictly speaking a correct statement because cas decisions can be appealed to the swiss supreme court based on cas's own charter.

thanks for getting and quoting cas's own charter that confirmed my recollection:

Judicial recourse to the Swiss Federal Tribunal is allowed on a very limited number of grounds, such as <snip>

the changes to the appeal scoper might very well occurred but the issue was of a fundamental right to appeal cas's decisions..

here is a case in point - a case from august 2009
http://arbitration.practicallaw.com/5-422-4843

 

[Dr. Maserati]

the issue was as raised by elapid:

i commented that this is not strictly speaking a correct statement because cas decisions can be appealed to the swiss supreme court based on cas's own charter.

thanks for getting and quoting cas's own charter that confirmed my recollection:


the changes to the appeal scoper might very well occurred but the issue was of a fundamental right to appeal cas's decisions..

here is a case in point - a case from august 2009
http://arbitration.practicallaw.com/5-422-4843

Were both pretty much saying the same thing, of course a party can take a case to a higher Court as indeed Stefan Schumacher was proposing to do but once the Swiss Courts declared CAS competent as an Arbitrary Court the avenues for getting a reversal or pretty limited.

 

[MacRoadie]

The Swedish?

They carpooled with the Swiss.

 

[craig1985]

The Swedish and German authorites came to Ullrich's house with a warrant and took dna samples from his bathroom. They had evidence on him just like Basso. Solid DNA evidence. Valverde is another thing all together. Assuming the blood bag did exist and their is a DNA profile for it, the evidence cannot be used in any investigation because it was sealed by judge Serrano. I never figured out how CONI got their hands on it till I read an explanation by a new member of the forum. CONI waited till Serrano was on holidays and skimped their way to the file. Illegal and dodgy. Vengeance? Yep.

Valverde will never sit out a ban for this and he shouldn't. The Italians went too far. CONI should take a trip down to AC Milan and test every ****** running around over 30. AC Milan are famous for their medical wonder program that extends the longevity of players careers into their late 30s. Anyone care to take a punt at who the most recent, plus fashionably famous and rich, exponent and convert to this program is? Good old golden balls himself. Don't think too hard...he is a Pom if you're struggling to think of names, who regained his early career form these last 2 years.

Whilst they are at, they should take a trip to Turin and test Juventus. They had a rather large medicine cabinet, and their excuse (used by the players), how else do they expect us to play 50, 60 games a season?