Valverde's Perfromance on La Pandera

[Big_Blue_Dave]

**** Moved from main thread **** (edit - 180mmCrank)


I'll be honest in that I hate bringing up the subject but Valverde's performance on La Pandera bore all the hallmarks and a few more besides of a doping performance. To be so badly dropped by a number of people only to then catch and pass them with authority suggests he is not clean.

 

[Moondance]

I'll be honest in that I hate bringing up the subject but Valverde's performance on La Pandera bore all the hallmarks and a few more besides of a doping performance. To be so badly dropped by a number of people only to then catch and pass them with authority suggests he is not clean.

Wrong sub-forum my friend. Go to 'The Clinic' for this kind of talk.

That said so, if CAS rules the Italian ban should apply world wide, they could rule that the Italian ban could also be applied retro-actively, which could mean he gets stripped of all his results since July, including the Vuelta, possibly. But there are a lot of 'coulds' and 'possiblies' in that scenario.

 

[SergeDeM]

I'll be honest in that I hate bringing up the subject but Valverde's performance on La Pandera bore all the hallmarks and a few more besides of a doping performance. To be so badly dropped by a number of people only to then catch and pass them with authority suggests he is not clean.

In that same interview they asked him about his recovery and to compare it with 2002 when he won the stage and 2006 when he got dropped by the Kazakhs. He said that when he got dropped he wasn't too worried because he could still see Basso and Gesink and more importantly because he knew the worst was still to come and that they would pay for the early effort. He basically said he paced himself because he knows this climb.

 

[Bala Verde]

I'll be honest in that I hate bringing up the subject but Valverde's performance on La Pandera bore all the hallmarks and a few more besides of a doping performance. To be so badly dropped by a number of people only to then catch and pass them with authority suggests he is not clean.

Just like Sanchez? and might you be suggesting that the team doctor gave him his transfusion on the Pandera?

He paced his climb better than others, losing a little on the steeper sections not going into the red, and than Ketchup with his attackers on the shallower sections to outride them and take a little time...

 

[Aguirre]

I'll be honest in that I hate bringing up the subject but Valverde's performance on La Pandera bore all the hallmarks and a few more besides of a doping performance. To be so badly dropped by a number of people only to then catch and pass them with authority suggests he is not clean.

You proove yourself having not idea about this sport. Very poor commentary from your side. everybody knowns Valverde's way of racing is exactly he rode today, through impulses and little sprints. More he knews the climb very well and set a pace having something left in his legs, not the case of Gesink and the others.
I knew than with that descent at the end Valverde will charge his legs for a strong finishing and minimazing the loss.

To relate today's race with doping is just not intelligent

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

You proove yourself having not idea about this sport. Very poor commentary from your side. everybody knowns Valverde's way of racing is exactly he rode today, through impulses and little sprints. More he knews the climb very well and set a pace having something left in his legs, not the case of Gesink and the others.
I knew than with that descent at the end Valverde will charge his legs for a strong finishing and minimazing the loss.

To relate today's race with doping is just not intelligent

No idea about cycling as a sport. I've watched Valverde since he was an amateur so I know exactly how he rides. I also know that those in front were riding together till Mosquera broke and that S. Sanchez just rode his tempo, as that is how he rides. But, Valverde could not hold S. Sanchez or Cobo, and then recovers in full to pass all but Mosquera and S. Sanchez. Give me a break!

This may need to go in the clinic, but seeing the usual suspects in defence of Valverde, and its the same with Armstrong, and any other rider who "dopes." But, when you see a performance like that, my initial thought as well as 15 other cyclists with me watching came to the following:-

"Ridiculous" "Not real" "How can he possibly do that!" "F*** off"

They are the ones I can potentially print without this whole thread going to the Clinic.

 

[Walshworld]

Valverde needed that bag of fresh blood today.

Man, they hammered him but to his credit, he didn't crack. If I wasn't sure he was dirty, he's be a favorite of mine. Check my latest Vuelta post at: http://walshworld.wordpress.com/

 

[Aguirre]

No idea about cycling as a sport. I've watched Valverde since he was an amateur so I know exactly how he rides. I also know that those in front were riding together till Mosquera broke and that S. Sanchez just rode his tempo, as that is how he rides. But, Valverde could not hold S. Sanchez or Cobo, and then recovers in full to pass all but Mosquera and S. Sanchez. Give me a break!

This may need to go in the clinic, but seeing the usual suspects in defence of Valverde, and its the same with Armstrong, and any other rider who "dopes." But, when you see a performance like that, my initial thought as well as 15 other cyclists with me watching came to the following:-

"Ridiculous" "Not real" "How can he possibly do that!" "F*** off"

They are the ones I can potentially print without this whole thread going to the Clinic.

According your argument, Samuel Sanchez's performance yesterday is equally suspicious!
Well, I might agree with you that everybody goes to the clinic (specially those teams called Columbia and Garmin and the rest too) but please, you cannot isolate specific facts in order to become judgemental.

If you claim you know Valverde from amateurs you might argue that what he did today is totally understable in his capacities as a classy rider and as the leader of the overall. Today he rode intelligent, with head, saving bullets for the final, he is a rider that goes with impulses, jumping, and the worst for him is a continous strong pace!

What I saw today is totally into the normality, including the final crisis of Basso, Evans and Gesink

 

[180mmCrank]

I have moved some of the posts about Valverde's fight back on the Pandera today because it felt like they belonged in the clinic. If people want to debate more freely they can here...

My own view of his performance today was that it was largely down to him knowing the climb and a big dose of heart on his part. What ever else you can say about this guy he has an ability to dig really deep when he has too. He's tough cookie.

I nearly found myself talking about his 'suitcase of courage'

 

[blackcat]

yes, but the "suitcase of courage" is usually with a caveat "panniers of blood"

the best riders to watch were always Ricco, Vino, Pantani.

Now, this is not the argument that Verbruggen makes "if the public want a Tour at 45kmph versus 25kmph".... da da da, ie. the fans want a show.

Well the show comes, the show is relative to the peloton. If the peloton has a prevalence of doping, the guys who entertain will have comprehensive medical programs. But, this assumes there would not be entertainment in a clean peloton. There would still be entertainment. It is much more entertaining when there is only a few GC riders at the bottom of the final climb in Queen stage at the Tour in the third week. This decade, on occasions, there have been 30 riders at the bottom of the Queen stage final ascent. That aint entertaining, even with Ricco, Mayo, Valverde, Vino.

 

[Cobber]

I have moved some of the posts about Valverde's fight back on the Pandera today because it felt like they belonged in the clinic. If people want to debate more freely they can here...

My own view of his performance today was that it was largely down to him knowing the climb and a big dose of heart on his part. What ever else you can say about this guy he has an ability to dig really deep when he has too. He's tough cookie.

I nearly found myself talking about his 'suitcase of courage'

+1..... If anything, I would use Valverde's performance today to argue that he is riding clean!

 

[pedaling squares]

I have no idea if Valv.Piti is currently riding clean, but I didn't think that today's stage was an obvious indicator of doping. I thought that Basso et al attacked on the steepest incline, and Valverde just rode to his limit without crossing into the red zone. The leaders' efforts caught up to them, and Valverde was able to recoup when the road flattened.

 

[Aguirre]

well, we might question all performances all the time. The good ones, the bad ones, etc. And this would lead us nowhere!!!

 

[flicker]

valverde basso hesink sanchz masquera etc.

I thought it was an excellent stage. Gesink attacked Basso followed.
Valverde rode at his threshold and as Gesink and Basso faded Valverde stayed at level and sped up as road flatened out and then sprinted on to drop Gesink. Gesink tried to attack too early and hit the wall. Lucky for Gesink the stage wasn't longer or he could have lost big time. Valverde knew the climb, his opponents, and his own capabilities.
If that was from doping I havn't a way of knowing.
My oppinion is that Valverde did an awesome ride and deserves his position in Vuelta.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I do not think Gesink hit the wall. He recuperates very fast and never goes over his limit (only AT his limit).

Basso, now there's a guy who hit the wall, or Evans, who also blew up trying to follow Gesink.

If Gesink wanted to blow himself up, he would have gone with Mosquera (and blown up with 1k to go)

 

[flicker]

Gesink

I am sorry, Gesink didn't hit the wall. He just attacked against a stronger advisary. I am a fan of Gesink I have met him and he is a nice guy with a bright future. I am sure he will podium in the Tour and maybe will win a grand tour. He tried to take time out of Valverde and just did not have the juice to do it.

 

[Bala Verde]

One thing that supports Valv. Piti riding at his own max in his own rythm is that the gap between Gesink and him never got bigger than 15-20s. He never really burried himself, only to come back from the grave.

On top of that, I don't see how someone not following an attack or even getting dropped, after which he returns again and even passes someone in the same stage, could be a sign of doping. I mean, you can't turn doping on and off during a stage. It's not that the refreshment pint on the rest day starts working whenever you want it...

 

[Escarabajo]

Even if He doped, I don't see the relation between pacing himself up the climb with doping. There are so many riders that do that regardless of doping.
My 2 cents.

 

[ggusta]

well, we might question all performances all the time. The good ones, the bad ones, etc. And this would lead us nowhere!!!

We might and we do. From reading these forums lately, performances are rated on how well the rider is doping and if he his hitting the sweet spot of his doping cycle at just the right time.

If the sport is really this bad, and from what I read here, I am starting to believe it is, it's almost pointless to allow oneself to be wrapped up in the beauty of it, since the 1st clean rider is like in 75th place on GC and toils in near anonymity, and it's impossible to guess if he'd be 1st if they were all clean.

It's a shame if it's true:the 'dominant' (they are all doping)theory. I find myself starting to not care. It's all one huge fraud.

 

[hfer07]

Honestly I find a bit extremist this thread-What everybody saw today was a Valverde being more mature and experienced rider who knows how to handle his rivals attacks. If you pay attention to the video-Basso, Mosquera & Gesink chose the steepest part of the climb to attack, but never open a decent gap to drop Valverde-so he keeps them on site, and counterattacks when the climb lessens-no rocket science there--
Perhaps all you people with doubts on his today's comeback should check the last year's Vuelta on the Angliru stage, where he fades a bit and then recovers to limit the damage done by Contador...

 

[180mmCrank]

Honestly I find a bit extremist this thread-What everybody saw today was a Valverde being more mature and experienced rider who knows how to handle his rivals attacks. If you pay attention to the video-Basso, Mosquera & Gesink chose the steepest part of the climb to attack, but never open a decent gap to drop Valverde-so he keeps them on site, and counterattacks when the climb lessens-no rocket science there--
Perhaps all you people with doubts on his today's comeback should check the last year's Vuelta on the Angliru stage, where he fades a bit and then recovers to limit the damage done by Contador...

+1 Just looked like smart riding to me. And it took a fair bit of bottle not to try to go with the others

 

[Hugh Januss]

We might and we do. From reading these forums lately, performances are rated on how well the rider is doping and if he his hitting the sweet spot of his doping cycle at just the right time.

If the sport is really this bad, and from what I read here, I am starting to believe it is, it's almost pointless to allow oneself to be wrapped up in the beauty of it, since the 1st clean rider is like in 75th place on GC and toils in near anonymity, and it's impossible to guess if he'd be 1st if they were all clean.

It's a shame if it's true:the 'dominant' (they are all doping)theory. I find myself starting to not care. It's all one huge fraud.

I was thinking about this earlier today after I saw this thread start. That is how can we reconcile being fans with believing that everyone is doping.
We can go along watching the races and pulling for our favorites and then the minute somebody does something even kind of heroic (as if pacing yourself and coming back from a 1/2 minute deficit has never been done in the pre EPO days) everyone wants to use that as some kind of new proof that a rider they already were suspicious of is definitely doping.
Well the other day you already knew this so why is it now a big deal?
More importantly what good are we doing here gossiping back and forth and trying to take The Easter Bunny away from all the little Lance fans.
We say we want a drug free cycling all the time. To each other, here. If we were serious we would be writing letters to the UCI to the teams to WADA to the corporations that sponsor pro cycling and we would be demanding a drug free cycling, and we would be mobilizing others to do the same. It probably wouldn't work and our letters would line every round file in cycling, but at least we would be trying something more important that sitting here in the dark p1ssing and moaning back and forth.
Just a thought that I had today, if anyone (or everyone) wants to go ahead and tell me why I'm full of crap. Go for it. I'm all ears.

 

[BroDeal]

The individual stage performances of Valverde do not say much. His overall performance throughout the Vuelta says more. I cannot shake the feeling that Valverde decided that he might as well go out with a bang, so he doped up to the level he used to before Puerto.

From what I saw, it seemed like he got gapped on the steep pitches and caught up on the lesser grades, which makes me suspect that Basso and Evans redlined themselves during the steep stuff and paid the price later on the climb. Gesink is tired; all he can do is hold on.

 

[Blakeslee]

I don't think Valverde's performance today was a good indication of whether he is still doping or not, but he almost certainly was in 2006. There is no way he should have even been allowed to start this race and I can't believe the UCI is going to let him take a victory in a grand tour for continuing to drag their feet in finally suspending him.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I don't think Valverde's performance today was a good indication of whether he is still doping or not, but he almost certainly was in 2006. There is no way he should have even been allowed to start this race and I can't believe the UCI is going to let him take a victory in a grand tour for continuing to drag their feet in finally suspending him.

+1
He's going to win la vuelta and then the uci will punish him. because it's tour of spain he was allowed to start. Spanish riders do not have the most cleanest records compared to other nations. Valverde wasn't stronger than the oters but because he prepared for this race more than others he knew the climb. valverde, sanchez and mosquera all went well today because they paced themselves better and dosed the effort. basso and evans didn't dose the effort but evans did say he didn't have the best of legs today to go with the leaders. If anyone wants to beat Valverde the must attack on stages 15, 18 and 19. all these stages suit sanchez as they have descents after a climb