Vingegaard vs Pogačar - The Duel

[Gigs_98]

Let's compare this rivalry with other notable Tour rivalries. Number of times a given pair of cyclists was together on the Tour podium:

Pogacar & Vingegaard: 5 times (5 x 1&2)
Armstrong & Ullrich: 4 times (3 x 1&2, 1 x 1&3) (results voided)
Anquetil & Bahamontes: 3 times (2 x 1&3, 1 x 1&2)
Merckx & Poulidor: 3 times (2 x 1&3, 1 x 1&2)
Hinault & Zoetemelk: 3 times (3 x 1&2)
Hinault & Lemond: 3 times (2 x 1&2, 1 x 2&3)
Armstrong & Beloki: 3 times (2 x 1&3, 1 x 1&2) (results voided)
Froome & Quintana: 3 times (2 x 1&2, 1 x 1&3)

So not only do they have by far the most 1&2 finishes already, if I didn't overlook anyone, Hinault & Lemond are also the only other pairing with multiple 1&2s where the winner was not always the same one. You know, it's always a little hard for me to compare Pogacar vs Vingegaard to Ullrich vs Armstrong when there was literally 1 Tour where the duel between them was even remotely close. Also I always find it interesting that although Ullrich is seen as the guy whose path to greatness was blocked by Armstrong, he actually finished right behind Armstrong in less than half of his victories.

I think you can call Pogacar vs Vingegaard the greatest rivalry in the history of the Tour and it's not at all a hyperbole.

 

[SHAD0W93]

So not only do they have by far the most 1&2 finishes already, if I didn't overlook anyone, Hinault & Lemond are also the only other pairing with multiple 1&2s where the winner was not always the same one. You know, it's always a little hard for me to compare Pogacar vs Vingegaard to Ullrich vs Armstrong when there was literally 1 Tour where the duel between them was even remotely close. Also I always find it interesting that although Ullrich is seen as the guy whose path to greatness was blocked by Armstrong, he actually finished right behind Armstrong in less than half of his victories.

I think you can call Pogacar vs Vingegaard the greatest rivalry in the history of the Tour and it's not at all a hyperbole.

Getting spanked by Armstrong did cause Ullrich to start taking recreational drugs and his 2002 issues though. At least Pogacar or Vingegaard haven’t had that.

 

[proffate]

Good!

I know it's an unpopular opinion, of mine, but I stated multiple times that it doesn't really makes sense for Pog and Vingo to exaust eachother in any multiple stages race that isn't the TdF.
The TdF is over three weeks, not over a day like a monument classic. Therefore it's enough to quench the fans thirst.
We don't need to seem them both at the Vuelta in 2025.

If they were smart they'd split:
-in 2026 you do Giro-Tour; I'll do Tour-Vuelta
-you do Dauphineé; I do Suisse
...
-in 2027 you do Tirreno Adriatico; I do Paris Nice
...

I know it's not romantic, and some people might get disgusted by said idea, but honestly if I were the higherups of Visma&UAE, I'd definitely play it that way.

No I think Vingegaard needs to go to every race that Pog is at to wear him down. If Ving weren't at this tour, Pog would not be too tired for the Vuelta, so we can see this tactic works. So that means Ving can win the 40 week tour that is the whole-calendar, maybe ...

 

[CyclistAbi]

Is this still rivalry, though?

 

[assisting]

Getting spanked by Armstrong did cause Ullrich to start taking recreational drugs and his 2002 issues though.

Did he talk or write about that? Or is that your interpretation of what caused his problems?

 

[Red Rick]

Is this still rivalry, though?

Absolutely is. The definition of rivalry is two people aiming for the same goal. It can't not be a rivalry unless Vingegaard stops aiming for races Pogacar shows up in altogether.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Absolutely is. The definition of rivalry is two people aiming for the same goal. It can't not be a rivalry unless Vingegaard stops aiming for races Pogacar shows up in altogether.

I feel this is only still considered to be a true rivalry due to Jonas finishing ahead of the rest with some margin, at a race such as the Tour. The rest is more or less Pogi show. And they seem to have spoiled the Rogla vs Remco rivary too.

Do we hence even have any true rivalries ATM? Merckx seems to suggest it's Pogi vs van der Poel now, as the last true rivalry. Is it, though? IMHO too much specialised and rare to be sold as that in some general sense.

 

[Unchained]

Did he talk or write about that? Or is that your interpretation of what caused his problems?

He has talked about it, and his repeated trips to inpatient, outpatient and support groups for alcoholism and substance abuse issues, and many mental health issues that include long-term depression. He had issues as a young man

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xWgk-jd3Sy4&pp=ygUWamFuIHVsbHJpY2ggZGVwcmVzc2lvbtIHCQnHCQGHKiGM7w%3D%3D

He has additional comments about substance abuse issues in podcasts, and there are direct and indirect references about suicidal ideation. He never said that anything Armstrong was a trigger . Stress of his stature

 

[Valv.Piti]

MVDP and Pogacar is obviously the real , even rivalry, even though its only for a couple of one day races a year spanning between 3-6 race days usually. More if you count the Tour and MVDP shows up in good shape like this year. Definitely the most interesting in cycling right now, that is without a doubt - both in terms of of they race, and how even they are.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I feel this is only still considered to be a true rivalry due to Jonas finishing ahead of the rest with some margin, at a race such as the Tour. The rest is more or less Pogi show. And they seem to have spoiled the Rogla vs Remco rivary too.

Do we hence even have any true rivalries ATM? Merckx seems to suggest it's Pogi vs van der Poel now, as the last true rivalry. Is it, though? IMHO too much specialised and rare to be sold as that in some general sense.

its also a rivalry cause Jonas torched Tadej in 2 out of their 5 Tour duels. One and half year ago some doubted Pogi can beat Vingo in a 3 week race. There were two twists: 1) Jonas as a secret Visma weapon beat seemingly unbeatable Pogacar in 2022 2) Pog struct back in 24-25.

Thats why its better than some past rivalries, not just because of pure numbers

 

[Peyroteo94]

Absolutely is. The definition of rivalry is two people aiming for the same goal. It can't not be a rivalry unless Vingegaard stops aiming for races Pogacar shows up in altogether.

The world is not prepared for Pogacar and O'Connor rivalry.

 

[HashRouge]

its also a rivalry cause Jonas torched Tadej in 2 out of their 5 Tour duels. One and half year ago some doubted Pogi can beat Vingo in a 3 week race. There were two twists: 1) Jonas as a secret Visma weapon beat seemingly unbeatable Pogacar in 2022 2) Pog struct back in 24-25.

Thats why its better than some past rivalries, not just because of pure numbers

After the 2023 Tour, I thought Pogi would never win the Tour again. I am entirely prepared for the fact that the balance could tip back towards Vingegaard next year, no matter how unlikely it seems right now.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

After the 2023 Tour, I thought Pogi would never win the Tour again. I am entirely prepared for the fact that the balance could tip back towards Vingegaard next year, no matter how unlikely it seems right now.

Who knows. Its hard to predict the sport's future. Well, except Tadej vs Jonas being there at the Tour every year.

 

[RedheadDane]

Who knows. Its hard to predict the sport's future. Well, except Tadej vs Jonas being there at the Tour every year.

And even that is not certain.

 

[CyclistAbi]

its also a rivalry cause Jonas torched Tadej in 2 out of their 5 Tour duels. One and half year ago some doubted Pogi can beat Vingo in a 3 week race. There were two twists: 1) Jonas as a secret Visma weapon beat seemingly unbeatable Pogacar in 2022 2) Pog struct back in 24-25.

Thats why its better than some past rivalries, not just because of pure numbers

But back then they where much closer? Now it's much much more one sided? Jonas is basically considered a rival only due to the gap to others and not really due to being a challenger to Pogi? Only due to currently being the best of the rest?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

But back then they where much closer? Now it's much much more one sided? Jonas is basically considered a rival only due to the gap to others and not really due to being a challenger to Pogi? Only due to currently being the best of the rest?

Actually 2022 was rather close until Vingo ended it on Hautacam and also 2023 until stage 16 was super close (even though it ended up with a huge margin, the biggest in their history). So it's not always the final gap that determines if the race looked open or not. Obviously this year (and especially in 2021) the gap got large quite quickly. 2024 was somewhere in the middle in this regard.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Actually 2022 was rather close until Vingo ended it on Hautacam and also 2023 until stage 16 was super close (even though it ended up with a huge margin, the biggest in their history). So it's not always the final gap that determines if the race looked open or not. Obviously this year (and especially in 2021) the gap got large quite quickly. 2024 was somewhere in the middle in this regard.

In 2024, we had a backloaded route once again.

 

[Gigs_98]

Is this still rivalry, though?

You have to be completely delusional to think it's not a rivalry anymore. For one, Tadej is only leading 3-2 in direct duels at the Tour, so it's really not as if this has been a completely onesided affair so far. But much more importantly Pogacar and UAE themselves are clearly still treating it as a rivalry. They still *** their pants once Visma riders join the break and the way they are riding is always tailored towards beating their main target Vingegaard. Vingegaard still scares them. Whether he should is another question but if the team themselves is treating one rider completely differently than anyone else then it's absurd for Pogis fans to pretend he is just like any other guy in the peloton.

 

[James M]

Do we hence even have any true rivalries ATM? Merckx seems to suggest it's Pogi vs van der Poel now, as the last true rivalry. Is it, though? IMHO too much specialised and rare to be sold as that in some general sense.

Its true. MvdP has proven he can beat this version of Pogacar when hes at full strength. It’s a real rivalry in terms of strenght—though only in a few monuments where the parcours suit MvdP, but nevertheless.

Historically speaking, it’s kind of insane one too. MvdP is arguably one of the greatest cobbled classics riders of all time going up against arguably the best cyclist of all time.

As for Jonas vs Pog, like you said, it's mostly considered a 'rivalry' because Jonas is the closest challenger in GT. In terms of raw strength, it's not quite a rivalry, but historically I get it. He's the closest challenger, and that counts for something, depends also on how one define rivalry at the moment somewhat, current level or historically. If its current level its only MvdP, historically Jonas rivalry is as good as it gets.

MVDP and Pogacar is obviously the real , even rivalry, even though its only for a couple of one day races a year spanning between 3-6 race days usually. More if you count the Tour and MVDP shows up in good shape like this year. Definitely the most interesting in cycling right now, that is without a doubt - both in terms of of they race, and how even they are.

Word.

 

[RedheadDane]

Obviously this year (and especially in 2021) the gap got large quite quickly.

Was Vingegaard even really a rival to Pogacar in 2021?
At least I wouldn't say he was from the beginning of the race... maybe he became a rival (or at least a future rival) on Mont Ventoux?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Was Vingegaard even really a rival to Pogacar in 2021?
At least I wouldn't say he was from the beginning of the race... maybe he became a rival (or at least a future rival) on Mont Ventoux?

He was a surprising substitution for Roglic (and got trounced in the Alps, like everyone else) but definitely Ventoux, Portet and Luz Ardiden stages confirmed a rivalry was born.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Actually 2022 was rather close until Vingo ended it on Hautacam and also 2023 until stage 16 was super close (even though it ended up with a huge margin, the biggest in their history). So it's not always the final gap that determines if the race looked open or not. Obviously this year (and especially in 2021) the gap got large quite quickly. 2024 was somewhere in the middle in this regard.

Not just time gap, Jonas was just being beaten day in day out, starting at the Dauphiné, without Wout Visma wouldn't even get a stage win, Pogi would never allow it.

You have to be completely delusional to think it's not a rivalry anymore. For one, Tadej is only leading 3-2 in direct duels at the Tour, so it's really not as if this has been a completely onesided affair so far. But much more importantly Pogacar and UAE themselves are clearly still treating it as a rivalry. They still *** their pants once Visma riders join the break and the way they are riding is always tailored towards beating their main target Vingegaard. Vingegaard still scares them. Whether he should is another question but if the team themselves is treating one rider completely differently than anyone else then it's absurd for Pogis fans to pretend he is just like any other guy in the peloton.

OK, if we consider the past, then it's still the rivalry.

Its true. MvdP has proven he can beat this version of Pogacar when hes at full strength. It’s a real rivalry in terms of strenght—though only in a few monuments where the parcours suit MvdP, but nevertheless.

Historically speaking, it’s kind of insane one too. MvdP is arguably one of the greatest cobbled classics riders of all time going up against arguably the best cyclist of all time.

As for Jonas vs Pog, like you said, it's mostly considered a 'rivalry' because Jonas is the closest challenger in GT. In terms of raw strength, it's not quite a rivalry, but historically I get it. He's the closest challenger, and that counts for something, depends also on how one define rivalry at the moment somewhat, current level or historically. If its current level its only MvdP, historically Jonas rivalry is as good as it gets.


Word.

I mean yes, even Merckx shares this sentiment. I am even thinking that it could happen and rather soon van der Poel won't be a match any more.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So not only do they have by far the most 1&2 finishes already, if I didn't overlook anyone, Hinault & Lemond are also the only other pairing with multiple 1&2s where the winner was not always the same one. You know, it's always a little hard for me to compare Pogacar vs Vingegaard to Ullrich vs Armstrong when there was literally 1 Tour where the duel between them was even remotely close. Also I always find it interesting that although Ullrich is seen as the guy whose path to greatness was blocked by Armstrong, he actually finished right behind Armstrong in less than half of his victories.

I think you can call Pogacar vs Vingegaard the greatest rivalry in the history of the Tour and it's not at all a hyperbole.

It's the best GT rivalry in terms of numbers and also plot twists (in 2022 and 2024). If you add charisma factor then Coppi vs Bartali remains the greatest in history. We still are missing Vingo searching Pogi's hotel room but the first step was done (Pogi inspecting Vingo's bike).

 

[AmRacer]

It's the best GT rivalry in terms of numbers and also plot twists (in 2022 and 2024). If you add charisma factor then Coppi vs Bartali remains the greatest in history. We still are missing Vingo searching Pogi's hotel room but the first step was done (Pogi inspecting Vingo's bike).

Visma's team car inspected Pogi's bike.

 

[Cookster15]

The rivalry peaked in 2022 and 2023. Since last year its become lopsided. Because of what happened in those years when they came to the Tour confident UAE remain wary. But the reality is on a physical level Pogacar has moved a step ahead and Jonas has no answer.

This year Vingegaard didn't have a rushed preparation and yet really the gap wasn't closed much - from 6 minutes to 4 minutes. Still a beating. On Stage 18 to Pogacar's nemesis mountain Jonas was powerless. The finish seemed similar to stage 20 to Col de la Couillole last year - Pogi taking some seconds at the end.

Prior to 2024 Jonas was assumed to have better recovery, be better in the heat and be better on the hardest mountain stages. These assumed advantages have been erased - particularly this year when there were no crash excuses. Visma threw everything but the kitchen sink at Pogacar at Hautacam, Ventoux and Loze and still lost well over 2 minutes on those stages on top of the beating in the earlier TT. And Pogacar is nearly two years younger.