Libertine Seguros said:
Your tone earlier sounded dismissive of the other two GTs, suggesting that anybody who considers themselves a GC rider would automatically go for the Tour.
The intention was in no way to be dismissive of the Giro or Vuelta; I thought I’d been at pains to point that out, but obviously not enough. I was more suggesting that anyone who was capable of a good chance of winning the TdF would automatically go for the TdF (and I still believe that although the prospect of going up against a doping Armstrong and his doping team would likely put many folk off such a futile attempt). The 2008 & 2009 editions of the Tour were frankly poor as a spectacle for a neutral observer (but obviously a zillion times better than the preceding years because they weren’t as tainted and the performances were much slower and believable on key climbs). It is ridiculous the way they appeared to try to make everything be decided on one stage out of 21 – so yes, not a TdF fanboy at all here (although I’ve loved the last two editions).
I may however have let a dismissive tone creep in when discussing the likes of Heras and Simoni as they are legally proven cheats whose performances at the TdF would suggest that they were not truly elite atheletes. Even if the Tour doesn’t suit you as a pure climber and you have focussed on the Vuelta or the Giro, you still have a chance of getting inside the top 20 regularly if you are an elite cyclist. As Sastre proves!
Thanks for the examples that couldn’t tackle the Vuelta – as I suspected our definitions of ‘competing for the GC at tour’ were different (yours is more accurate perhaps, mine was more "competing for a top five finish at the TdF"). Those aren’t particularly strong riders as examples (i.e. riders that chalked up three or more good finishes - apart from Boogerd & Kloden, and I conceded Leipheimer). I’d turn around your quote and ask
‘How many of them would realistically win or podium at the TdF?’
The answer to that from your examples is 3 (Kloden, Leipheimer & post comeback Armstrong - none of whom have ever to my knowledge focussed their season on the Vuelta). Of the others, I didn’t find much evidence of any of them having focussed on the Vuelta either, but would certainly concede that some years the TdF can be so conservative (with only one key stage plus an ITT), that it is possible for less talented performers to creep into the outer fringes of the Top 10 and that these riders would likely struggle to reach the outer fringes of the Top 10 at the Vuelta. So yes, if we use your definition of GC contenders you are quite right that there is maybe an average of one rider per year in the TdF top ten who probably couldn’t get a Top 10 Vuelta finish even if they focussed on it.
However, if we use the ‘podium contenders’ definition of GC contenders I’m not convinced that
There are plenty of people who can compete for the GC at the Tour who could never compete for it at the Vuelta.
Parrulo said:
fergoose you can have your opinion but you should accept that due to your lack of knowledge( you admit that yourself) it may be wrong.
As you read my last post, you’ll know I fully accept that in the first paragraph of said post. I also fully accept that having a reservoir of knowledge but an inability use that knowledge to make a reasoned argument will also result in people being wrong. As an example, you’ll have found numerous posters in this thread who have made basic errors and many who, unlike me, fail to acknowledge when they are perhaps not right.
For me forums are not about proving who is right and who is wrong. It’s about gaining more information to improve my enjoyment of the sport and I am grateful for your contributions in helping me with that.
I’ve done that in this thread. Mission accomplished. None of the stages thus far have added to the debate, with no outlandish attacks or eyebrow raising performances.
We strayed into TdF versus Giro/Vuelta discussions which is not something I’m particularly bothered about. However, if folk make arguments about it, I am happy to look up data and respond if I don’t think their point is sound.
please name 5 riders under 30 with more GT GC success then nibali(who is the same age as andy btw).
Why? I’ve enjoyed Nibali greatly from when I first saw him on the TdF. I’m not knocking him, he is probably my favourite rider out of the Vuelta contenders this year and I would love him to win. That doesn’t mean I think he’ll win this year (if VdB is fit or Menchov shows his best form) or that I accept your point that if Nibali focussed on the TdF he’d have finished ahead of Contador, Sanchez, Basso, Voeckler and one of the Schlecks (or VdB and possibly even Wiggins if they hadn’t crashed out) in order to make a podium. So I enjoy Nibali, but I don’t agree with your point at all.
As for Scarponi, I think he is capable of anything after making his debut in the top 10 of a GC at the age of 30 and having served a doping ban. Its why out of all the remaining GC contenders in this Vuelta, he is the one I’ll be hoping that Lady Luck doesn’t shine on in the coming fortnight as I believe out of all the contenders he is the one most capable of once again bringing the sport into disrepute.