Vuelta Ciclista al Pais Vasco, 4-9 April

[Kazistuta]

OH dear, oh dear. I wet my pants when I go on reading here any further.
Just had a look back. Outta here - fast.
Just wanted to ask when the "TT-whining" and "no one drops Martin, easy boring race decided by TT" starts.
But some people, well, especially 8000000x Libertinchen - I can't take them serious any more. Heavy heavy doublestandards and nonsense comparisons, and will be another week of P-N and Tony Martin bashing.

Nothing against that race, looking forward to it too, but no, I get rash when I go on reading.
This race is soooo great compared to P-N. Its soooo unpredictable. The climbs are soooo loooong, steeeeeeep and haaaaaaaard. TT will in nooooooo way decide that race.

Have a nice race. Now outta here faaaaaaaast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3arub4vlziE

And by that sentiment we should all think that Cobblestoned thinks Tony Martin will win this.

I'm sure he CAN, but he won't.....

 

[Ryaguas]

Bon... I can't see Das Panzerwagen taking this one... I bet that He will be at least 2min back before the ITT...
As Jamsque, I'm totally rooting for Rigo here! his form is good and here He can do very well!
Lets see if Geox can pull something here... Duarte to take a win!
ahhh... is a shame dont have Michelle nor Contador here
this is a rly good training for FW...

 

[The Hitch]

Anyone remember last year when in the tt, on the hill, with no other soal in sight, some guy stood waiting for Valverde, letting the other riders pass, then when Piti finally came he run up the hill next to Valverde shouting in his ear for about 20 seconds, like really loudly, spurring him on, waving his hands. It was passion. Even the commentators found it funny.

Passion.

Bon... I can't see Das Panzerwagen taking this one... I bet that He will be at least 2min back before the ITT...
As Jamsque, I'm totally rooting for Rigo here! his form is good and here He can do very well!
Lets see if Geox can pull something here... Duarte to take a win!
ahhh... is a shame dont have Michelle nor Contador here
this is a rly good training for FW...

Michele needs to rest a bit.

And is Duarte back from Colombia?

 

[Cobblestoned]

Cobblestoned, I say that, because the way you talk about Pais Vasco doesn't make sense to the editions the last 10 years I saw...

There's always a lot of action and the winner is almost never a rider like the type of Tony Martin.
It's usually a more naturally gifted puncheur or climber.

Dear Limburger, again - I love this race.

I watch the riders along the season, I watch the profile of this edition, I watch the startlist and because of that I say that chance is very very high that Tony Martin or one of the Shacks will win.

It started with me coming in here clicking last post, seeing you are prefering to look forward to Pais Vasco, over looking forward to Ronde or Roubaix because race is sooo unpredictable.
Then I asked why, and from that point on you started overhyping the race even more and you tried to make me look like I would hate the race and have no clue of cycling, and Tony Martin will face hell....
Ok, relatively normal talk.
Actually, I think we don't have a problem at all and I don't have any problem with you.

After reading your post, I had a look from 1st page on. And then saw the 8000000x post. I mean, that post was even "better" than what I expected from some special usual suspects. lol

But compared to that, you are still from planet earth.

Ok, now that I predicted that unpredictable outcome of PaisVasco, I need some winning names for that boring and predictable Roubaix and Ronde.
Otherwise its unfair.

 

[blaxland]

I personally quite like Gesink and Sanchez for the overall. The tt should be quite good for gesink.

Two obvious choices...but what about A.Moinard?maybe a stage win?top 5 overall?

 

[Christian]

Lets see if Geox can pull something here... Duarte to take a win!

Rafael Valls? Anyone?

You read it here first! (Or else a couple pages back when I'd already mentioned him)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

After reading your post, I had a look from 1st page on. And then saw the 8000000x post. I mean, that post was even "better" than what I expected from some special usual suspects. lol

But compared to that, you are still from planet earth.

Firstly, I didn't post the 8000000 post until AFTER your first post.

Secondly, I didn't say that Martin's chances of winning were 8000000 times less here. I still think he has a chance of winning. I just meant that, because this parcours is far less suited to him than the relatively easy Paris-Nice parcours, if he won here I would have to give out much, much more respect to him than winning something that was tailor-made for his strengths, because if he gets into the lead here I foresee him being made to work a lot harder to defend that position than he ever was in Paris-Nice. This route is one I'd consider more balanced; the TT is long enough that somebody like Martin can still consider themselves able to challenge, while the climbers will see enough in the route that makes them think they can drop him, and therefore attacking is more worthwhile (whether they actually can drop him or not is a different matter of course). With two stages where climbs crest very close to the finish (not with 10-15km of flat to allow groups to get back together), and the climbs being long enough to break people, but short enough that the gaps aren't going to be minutes, they're the right kind of size that everybody from Joaquím Rodríguez to Tony Martin and in between can consider that they have a chance to win. Paris-Nice was always going to be won by a TT guy who could hold on on relatively gradual (in comparison to Euskal Herriko Itzulia) climbs, and Tony Martin can do that comfortably. What he's like when the gradient gets up to 15-20% might be another question - and with 25km of time trialling, other riders WILL ask that question.

Similarly, if Cancellara won the 2011 Tour de Suisse, I'd give out much more respect than he got for winning the 2009 edition, with all its difficult parts neutered and TTs lengthened in the hope of Cancellara winning.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Moinard is not nearly good enough.

Looking at the start, it's hard for any kind of suprise to win this. Though Horner last year was definately one.

From the second string riders, if a guy like Kessiakoff or Peraud (already good last year) would really jump up a level or have a super week, they might suprise.

But I don't really see it happening.

 

[The Hitch]

I wonder how Samu turns up. Underperformed last year even if he did win the queen stage. Hasnt looked too good so far this season either. He did though say his 2 focuses in the season are this and Tour.

I wouldnt be surprised if Gesink gets his biggest victory yet.

Menchov and Basso for podium. Horner to challenge.

Porte for tt. Tondo for a stage win.

When will Blanco show something.

Will be nice to see Geox in a live race. They have an amazing team.

 

[Ryaguas]

Rafael Valls? Anyone?

I know Rafa... still remember his 2nd place in Le Tour after Chavanel! but Duarte has been looking strong!

When will Blanco show something.

In Volta a Portugal em Bicicleta! when He is going to win it for 981273918723918273198237198237 time
Also I'm expecting that He will give massive pain in Il Giro

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Two obvious choices...but what about A.Moinard?maybe a stage win?top 5 overall?

the field is way to good for moinard.

dude, I don't underrate anything.
Again: I like this race and don't have any problem with it.
I just see some overhyping.
Old results, editions and seasons are as interesting as newspapers from yesterday, when its about upcoming races.
If Martin or the shacks keep their current level they will win this race. It's as simple as that.

not true. maybe on a course like PN, but this is different. You are assuming martin is at a climbing level of samu, gesink etc based on...PN? This course will be much harder then PN. I agree he might win overall, but it is very likely he will be dropped on some of these climbs as his level of climbing simply isn't a match for samu, basso, gesink etc. Depending on the attitude of racing, I can see him quite easily losing this race. You make it sound like Martin is a must to win hin here based on PN.

This is a lot harder then PN, don't overrate martin's abilities.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Firstly, I didn't post the 8000000 post until AFTER your first post.

Secondly, I didn't say that Martin's chances of winning were 8000000 times less here. I still think he has a chance of winning. I just meant that, because this parcours is far less suited to him than the relatively easy Paris-Nice parcours, if he won here I would have to give out much, much more respect to him than winning something that was tailor-made for his strengths, because if he gets into the lead here I foresee him being made to work a lot harder to defend that position than he ever was in Paris-Nice.

Similarly, if Cancellara won the 2011 Tour de Suisse, I'd give out much more respect than he got for winning the 2009 edition, with all its difficult parts neutered and TTs lengthened in the hope of Cancellara winning.

Libertinchen....you should read again.
I clicked DF post - last post at that time for me - talked to him.
Then I started page one of thread. Reading up to page3, where your 8000000-post appeared, with your usual P-N bash and Tony Martin high standard watching.
Then reached Page4, where I then commented your 8000000 -post, where you said that PV win would be 8000000x more impressive..
And I never said anything else or that you said winning chances 8000000x.
Then saw you handshaking DT and......
I didn't even read your following answers till that one here, otherwise I would have answered.
Then saw the 2 ladies again and thought OMG, not today, not here, not again.....P-N.
Now you start talking again, like 2011 P-N was.......nothing and as if this PV-TT isn't a real and a main factor for outcome of race.....and that nice balance, and all that....hard climbs and awesome MTFs.... more to follow.

This whole show is sooo damn transparent.

Like I said, in this special case you have very very high doublestandards and you can't move out of your corner. Your post up there is the typical example of 1cm forward, and 2 cm back.
Then again now, you compare Tony Martin P-N win with that really laughable TdS edition won by Cancellara.
But since your 8000000x post, you are nearly somewhere on moon anywhere.

Because of that, discussion with DT makes more sense, because he is able to come out of the corner. May it be just 1cm.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Like I said, in this special case you have very very high doublestandards and you can't move out of your corner. Your post up there is the typical example of 1cm forward, and 2 cm back.
Then again now, you compare Tony Martin P-N win with that really laughable TdS edition won by Cancellara.But since your 8000000x post, you are nearly somewhere on moon anywhere.

.

do you actually rate this years PN course ?
It was seriously weak.

 

[Parrulo]

man untill the past few days i had a view of cobblestone as a much nicer poster . . .

also i am with everyboday else here. p-n was a joke in terms of course, very unbalanced.

i don't see martin surviving in pais basco, as a contender ofc

 

[Cobblestoned]

the field is way to good for moinard.



not true. maybe on a course like PN, but this is different. You are assuming martin is at a climbing level of samu, gesink etc based on...PN? This course will be much harder then PN. I agree he might win overall, but it is very likely he will be dropped on some of these climbs as his level of climbing simply isn't a match for samu, basso, gesink etc. Depending on the attitude of racing, I can see him quite easily losing this race. You make it sound like Martin is a must to win hin here based on PN.

This is a lot harder then PN, don't overrate martin's abilities.

This race is not a lot of harder course. You can join Libertine on moon.
How can you even consider calling it a lot of harder ?
I mean, just a look at number of stages should do it, to think about that "a lot harder". Sounds somehow......strange, even when there are some names added and if we see more firework.

No, I don't make it sound like that and I actually hate talking about P-N.
Read again. I watch the whole thing. Everything and everyone, and all the trends.

Your post is figured out very clever in some parts. You will be safe and right whatever might happen.
We then can later discuss your definition of "harder", "beeing dropped", and if everyone was satisfied with the "attitude" of racing.

 

[Eric8-A]

I don't think Tony Martin will win this. I remember seeing last year's race and I forgot in what stage it was where all the riders where swaying their bikes side to side because of how hard the climb was. The whole race was just incredible which made it my favorite race. Back to Tony Martin, I think in this race there's going to be much more attacking than there was in Paris-Nice and I just don't see Martin being able to follow the attacks.

 

[Cobblestoned]

do you actually rate this years PN course ?
It was seriously weak.

Try point that out for me.
Show me that huge gaps and big differences. Show me that huge weakness.
Show me the reasons for all the total extremes in which some people are talking all the time about that P-N edition.
If someone was really able to seriously do that till that day today, I wouldn't even talk about this any more. Because i would have accepted it then.

If this really had been all soooooo bad and weeeeeak and boooring, I am sure, I would have even noticed it myself. lol

Good luck !

 

[hfer07]

I'd like to see Gesink & Purito getting the best of the Schleck Bros. very strong participation-and hopefully they put up a good fight FTW

 

[auscyclefan94]

Ah, how times change...

No, it is a tough circuit, I have said before he is good on tough circuits.

Nothing to facepalm for...

If you disagree than disagree, but it's a matter of personal opinion.

Am I supposed to like a race more just because it's a monumental classic?

I really always look more forward to hilly stage races, hilly classics and though mountain stages then cobbled classics.

I simply don't have the same fascination with cobbles and stones like some people do with RVV and the Roubaix roads... never had too.
I mean I like the races, but just not as much.
And Pais Vasco is a special one, like Libertine just explained...

Hmm, can't say I agree. It's a good race, but nothing overly special like RVV or Roubaix is in most editions.

 

[Kazistuta]

If Martin or the shacks keep their current level they will win this race. It's as simple as that.

I respect your personal opinion about Martin, Klöden etc. and their chances in this race, but the sentence above is as safe as they come.

It's easy for you to go and say "Yeah, they didn't keep their current level" if they turn out to loose massively in the almost-MTF's.

What sort of time difference do you see Martin, Klödi etc. being able to pull back in the TT - and how much do you think they'll need to pull back (=how much time WILL they loose according to your estimates?)

Martin and Klöden impressed me at the race to the sun, but just looking at the profiles of the two races tell me that this race won't be favoring TT specialists as much as P-N this year.

It's the riders that make the race, and noone managed to put Martin in real danger (except for maybe Klöden in that lethal sprint on stage 5, LOL) in France. Let's see if that's the case here - "Ich don't think so"

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

If this really had been all soooooo bad and weeeeeak and boooring, I am sure, I would have even noticed it myself. lol

clearly not.

Try point that out for me.
Show me that huge gaps and big differences. Show me that huge weakness.
Show me the reasons for all the total extremes in which some people are talking all the time about that P-N edition.
If someone was really able to seriously do that till that day today, I wouldn't even talk about this any more. Because i would have accepted it then.

no worries.

Stages 1-4; Flat stages. scary
Stage 5; The "Queen stage".

The final climb 7.6km @ 8.3 % - Although not the easiest climb, hardly a finish too claim this is a hard race. Further more the climb and stage were poorly contested, this is reflected on the stage results.
1st Place finished the stage @ 4.59Hr - with 8 riders together on the line.
Up to 23rd place finished the stage at just 19 seconds behind. DEVASTATING time differences.
Stage 6; The time trial.
Stage 7; Mostly flat.
Stage 8; the 2nd most difficult stage, and not nearly selective enough. About 20 riders coming in together with no more then 20 secs between them (after the break away).
***The Race had no MTF.
***The field was weak in terms of climbers, other then Samu (and maybe tondo), didn't have form yet, it lacked any pure climbers.
***There were no climbs selective enough to distance pure climbers from the tony martins. Stage 5 even lacked real tempo, it was asif the riders had conceded defeat to martin with the itt in mind already. It was a poorly ridden race, and the worst pn i have seen in a long time. This as I remember was a very general feeling on the forum.

Can anyone remember any rider really putting in a devastating atack on any of the climbs? Nope, the course discouraged this.

please look at results from stage 5 and 8. Some of these guys are pretty average climbers when the peleton hits real climbs.
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=19864
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=19861

---Basque will not be that easy. There is a much much better field here, in terms of climbing, no doubt it will be ridden at a better tempo on the climbs.
There are more climbs, where gradual climbing at long distance (which we saw to a small extent at PN)will be replaced with medium steep climbs. Let's see martin follow some of the pure climbers in form.

Don't let Martin's victory delude you that PN was a tough race, when in fact the small time gaps and low tempo ridden is evidence of the opposite.

No, it is a tough circuit, I have said before he is good on tough circuits.


Hmm, can't say I agree. It's a good race, but nothing overly special like RVV or Roubaix is in most editions.

generally I would agree, tho Basque is one of the best stage races out there. But last year's flanders and PR were really disappointing imo. Especially PR (watching spartacus do a 50km tt while flecha and co were content with 2nd while boonen was the only one attempting to bring Spartacus back was really crap). In fact Basque was a lot better then those races last year.

Based on E3, I think it might be a similar situation this year.

 

[Eric8-A]

clearly not.



Can anyone remember any rider really putting in a devastating atack on any of the climbs? Nope, the course discouraged this.




Don't let Martin's victory delude you that PN was a tough race, when in fact the small time gaps and low tempo ridden is evidence of the opposite.

.

The reason why Tony Martin was able to win.

 

[Aguirre]

wrinting from BC here. Some details: the parcours is ideal for Sammy, Gesink, Uran, horner (+ motivation of this one as winner of last year)

as well, klodi, levi, franck S, beñat I, can do well

Don't expect Toni Martin being there,

attention stage 1: last climb has 20% in narrow roads,

 

[Mellow Velo]

I would say that on this year's course design, Paris-Nice is the Tour, while Pais Vasco is the Giro. I think this will be reflected in the racing, too.

The only thing I would say in defence of the French race is that it didn't only lack second decisive road stage, but the weather occurred in the wrong order.
Had we got the wind and rain on the flat stages, we might have got more of the echelons of other years.

The rest were set up with a bit of French dare in mind and, to that end, they were successful. As GC stages, they weren't.

 

[Descender]

The (final) climbs: