Warming down.

I'm interested in finding out what the time line is regarding riders using rollers to warm down, and what the scientific benefit of it is.

Obviously sky have claimed repeatedly that warming down after stages is more effective than EPO, (though Froome has been seen ignoring them). We know they have flat out lied about other marginal gains (like tt positions kerrison invented or claiming to have brought in training techniques people were using decades ago, etc), so I'm wondering how legit this one is.

What are the advantages of warming down on rollers after the stage. Are they significant?

Secondly, is it true that rollers were introduced by Sky or were riders using them before (like how Sky suggested they invented the wind tunnel and one of the other ds's said that was crap).

Thirdly is it true all teams use them now?

And other discussions.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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all the bots who spent thousands of posts and accounts asking about evidence re: sky doping, where is the evidence that warming down and other marginal gains actually work?
 
Oct 6, 2009
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Hitch,
I'm pretty sure there is an old post by JV somewhere on this forum about Garmin doing warmdowns back when nobody much was doing it. One of the users had it as his/her signature for a while. Not sure if the JV quote pre-dates Sky or not, though.
 
Re:

the sceptic said:
all the bots who spent thousands of posts and accounts asking about evidence re: sky doping, where is the evidence that warming down and other marginal gains actually work?
I don't know what the people who's aim is to obstruct discussion think, but as to the true believers, I remember there was a poster called froome19 on here that did a long essay which he said was proof sky don't dope and marginal gains work. It basically involved quotes from Brailsford, Sutton, Bobby Jullich and other sky employers talking about how amazed they were when they saw what improvements marginal gains gave.

So the evidence is, essentially, marginal gains work becuase other sky employers (including lying doping hacks like bobby Jullich) claim they work. Flawless logic.
 
Re:

Beech Mtn said:
Hitch,
I'm pretty sure there is an old post by JV somewhere on this forum about Garmin doing warmdowns back when nobody much was doing it. One of the users had it as his/her signature for a while. Not sure if the JV quote pre-dates Sky or not, though.
I think I know what you refer to. I think that was a post JV made on the forum in 2012 and he was towing the sky line that they (not garmin) invented warm downs.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Seemingly every single cn article uses a line like "after warming down outside his team bus, he said that.." these days.
 
The Hitch said:
I'm interested in finding out what the time line is regarding riders using rollers to warm down, and what the scientific benefit of it is.

Obviously sky have claimed repeatedly that warming down after stages is more effective than EPO, (though Froome has been seen ignoring them). We know they have flat out lied about other marginal gains (like tt positions kerrison invented or claiming to have brought in training techniques people were using decades ago, etc), so I'm wondering how legit this one is.

What are the advantages of warming down on rollers after the stage. Are they significant?

Secondly, is it true that rollers were introduced by Sky or were riders using them before (like how Sky suggested they invented the wind tunnel and one of the other ds's said that was crap).

Thirdly is it true all teams use them now?

And other discussions.
Kudos for such balanced questions.

I don't think I could have asked the second one with a straight face. Sky first to use rollers for cool down/warm down/recovery???

C'mon already. Did they invent rollers?

I am not quite as old as the dinosaurs*, but I started using rollers for post-ride recovery when I was a nascent Cat 4. You know, a year or two before Sky were formed.

Haven't track cyclists been doing this ever since they started turning left?

Al Kreitler, Associated Press, 1997

"... For nearly 28 years, Kreitler has been making rollers ... At a track race, we'll use them constantly," said Scan Thompson, head mechanic for USA Cycling in Colorado Springs, Colo., which provides teams to the Olympics. "We warm up on them and cool down on them."

I am sure we could find many thousands of more citations and references, otherwise how could an ignorant neophyte like me ever have figured this out, but here are just a couple:

Serious Cycling, 2002
Ed Burke, PhD

"Indoor Workouts (including rollers)
As with any workout, spend a few minutes warming up and cooling down before and after each session on the bicycle. ..."

Cool Your Jets: NHL Workouts, USA Hockey Magazine 2008
Joe Sager

"...From a medical standpoint, training after games helps players recover quickly.

“It helps players flush the lactic acid that builds up during a game. It allows your body to cool down in a sufficient manner and basically recover by doing a kind of flushing — whether it’s riding a bike or doing a workout,” says Chris Stewart, the Penguins’ head athletic trainer. ..."

Hockey Player Magazine, April 1997

"...A lot of guys ride the (exercise) bike for 10 to 15 minutes after a game to work the lactic acid out of their legs,” Kamp said. Spending a few minutes on an exercise bike or stair climber has its proponents in the NHL as well. Rod Brind’Amour of the Flyers and Darren McCarty of the Red Wings, for example, use a little post-game workout as a way of allowing their bodies to recover. ..."

Dave.

*It may be of anecdotal signficance that one of my first coaches was Tudor Bompa, who is considered the founder/inventor of Periodization training. Not that I am an expert in Periodization, but I was doing it before any of the members of Team Sky - and possibly some of their parents - were born. Cool down sessions were very much a part of our training routines way back in that pre-Personal Computer primordial darkness.
 
This does not directly answer the question, but I can say that "cool down" jogs were standard practice after high school track (running) races in the 1980s.

Incidentally, "warming down," as a phrase, has never made sense to me. If you warm up, then you cool down.
 
Mar 27, 2014
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One of the reasons that a lot of teams wouldn't cool down on rollers at the finish area, was that usually at the end of a stage of the larger races there was a considerable distance ( a fair few kilometres sometimes) which the riders would have to go back to the hotel.

So the riders would finish the stage maybe get a towel down and some fresh fluids from the team bus then get back on their bikes and ride to their hotels as a team. As a result they would soft pedal from the race finish to the hotel for however long it took them to get there. On races where the hotel was much closer then they would cool down once at the hotel. However very often on other bikes so as the mechanics could get started on the job of cleaning and stripping down their race bikes for the next day.

Even if you watch the old ITV coverage of the UK races back in the day you can see riders after the race in the car park on rollers cooling down.
It is definitely a common sight on the track especially. I guess it is another thing that Sir Dave thinks he came up with as he had seen it on the track but nowhere else, As he had NEVER been anywhere else!!!
 
Re:

shalgo said:
This does not directly answer the question, but I can say that "cool down" jogs were standard practice after high school track (running) races in the 1980s.

Incidentally, "warming down," as a phrase, has never made sense to me. If you warm up, then you cool down.
I can confirm that even in the backwater in which I grew up, warming down was standard in track, basketball and wrestling in the early/mid 80s. In football we didn't.

The Sky point however, is that they claim to have invented it for road cycling. I guess anyone watching or participating in a local race who watched the more motivated guys warm down on rollers or a stand behind their truck would be confused that Sky invented it 25 years later...
 
May 26, 2010
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Sky dont always do warms downs directly after races. I was in the parc ferme at a Tirreno Adriatico stage finish in Chieti and no one did a 'warm down'. Cav was riding for Sky and was their last rider to finish. In the mean time the whole Sky team got on the bus and never showed their face again and the bus departed as soon as Cav climbed aboard.
 
Re:

red_flanders said:
shalgo said:
This does not directly answer the question, but I can say that "cool down" jogs were standard practice after high school track (running) races in the 1980s.

Incidentally, "warming down," as a phrase, has never made sense to me. If you warm up, then you cool down.
I can confirm that even in the backwater in which I grew up, warming down was standard in track, basketball and wrestling in the early/mid 80s. In football we didn't.

The Sky point however, is that they claim to have invented it for road cycling. I guess anyone watching or participating in a local race who watched the more motivated guys warm down on rollers or a stand behind their truck would be confused that Sky invented it 25 years later...
BS

First time I saw rollers in active use for recovery following a crit was one that none other than Lance Armstrong participated in in the early 90s (i.e. almost 25 years ago). Not that he was using them, but that they were definitely being used.

But, allow me to offer another citation:

Training For Cycling, Davis Phinney/Connie Carpenter, 1992

"To indoor bike or not.

...There will be plenty of time for stationary training later when the weather is bad and you want - or need - to ride. Limit the stationary bike to weight-training warm=up and/or warm-down. ..."

"Getting the most out of race days

Warm-down. Devote thirty minutes to an hour to warm-down immediately after your race..."


Benotti69 said:
Sky dont always do warms downs directly after races. I was in the parc ferme at a Tirreno Adriatico stage finish in Chieti and no one did a 'warm down'. Cav was riding for Sky and was their last rider to finish. In the mean time the whole Sky team got on the bus and never showed their face again and the bus departed as soon as Cav climbed aboard.
Sacrilege!!

Dave.
 
A good review here.

I’ve contemplated for a while writing about the role and function of cooling down after a workout or race, but never I have never fully been able to put all the pieces together to do so. The cool down seems like such a normal/given thing. It’s a rite of passage to be able to be done for the day. It’s so ingrained that no one asks the question why anymore.

Why?

Let’s first look at the traditional viewpoint of the cool down. If we were to ask what a cool down is used for most answers would relate to bringing your body back to normal. You’d get answers like to get rid of lactic acid or waste products, to slowly bring muscle temperature down, to gradually reduce Heart Rate (HR), and all sorts of other related answers.



But do these things matter? Lactate is cleared within 30-60min anyways, so maybe a cool down speeds it up to 15-20min, but that’s not a big deal because lactate is not evil. Muscle temperature and core body temperature would drop quicker by just standing around, as would heart rate. On the contrary a cool down would keep blood flow elevated for longer, so perhaps transport of “stuff” would be enhanced. But the truth is. We have no idea why the cool down actually physiologically does anything.

Is this another case of being overrated like stretching?

Everyone in the world uses a cool down post workout whether it is HS, college, or Pro’s so there has to be a reason or benefit. Unlike stretching (which people who were keenly aware just kind of stopped doing) there’s never been a movement to stop cooling down. That to me, and the fact that empirical evidence from coaches all over supports the use of one, lends credence to the idea that cooling down is in fact a good thing. My contention though, is we’ve been asking the wrong question when trying to figure out what a cool down does in the running world.

Adaptation, not always recovery:

While the emphasis on what a cool down does has been on returning to normal and recovery, which it probably aids to a degree, I can’t help but think that we’re missing part of the picture. The cool down job or activity post workout is actually part of the workout. It’s a crucial component that actually furthers adaptation.

What state is the body in at the completion of the workout? We are probably left with muscles running low on glycogen, high on lactate, have a low pH, a large number of muscle fibers having cycled in to do work and exhausted, all sorts of neurotransmitters in the brain at high levels, and the brain’s central governor screaming at us to stop. That’s quite a lovely state to be in right?

Once we stop, things calm down a little bit and start the return back to homeostasis. But then we start jogging again and what happens?

We’re now doing more running, albeit at a slow pace, in this depleted state. It’s not increasing our depleted state too much in most cases but we’re still recruiting muscle fibers to work when they’re in this state. Is it possible that with a ton of them already fatigued, we’ve altered the recruitment slightly so that fibers that normally don’t work at such an easy aerobic intensity are now working? If so, then we’re training fibers that normally don’t work at such low intensities to be a little better aerobically. Secondly, if we look at lactate. If we have a decent amount of it built up and we start running, are we perhaps training our muscles to take up and reuse lactate better while running then if we were just lying around?

If we look at the brain’s role, could continued exercise, even at a low intensity post hard workout actually signal the brain that we’re okay and we can push these boundaries a little bit more and survive?

I don’t know the answers exactly, but…

What I’m getting at should be obvious but it is this: The cool down might be a training effect more than a recovery enhancer. Both probably play a role, but it’s typically thought of as the later only.
Where’s the evidence? I have little because there is little to no research on cooling down.

What I do have though is intriguing.
We know that a cool down of aerobic exercise (i.e. a jog) following a strength workout will impact the adaptations that occur from the total workout. Depending on the combination and what kind of athlete you are dealing with, a cool down can either enhance strength gains or be used to limit hypertrophy. Essentially throwing aerobic exercise in after a strength session can impact the adaptations you get. You can see this on a signal pathway level in comparing what pathways get activated versus which don’t. Just by including light aerobic work after (which many would consider a cool down) can alter the effects of the previous strength workout. Similarly, there have been some intriguing studies on stretching after strength work that shows it can change the amount of hypertrophy. The point is this, a cool down activity can modulate what the main workout produces in terms of adaptation.

The cool down therefore should be looked at as an enhancer to the main workout.

How to modulate?

I have no clue. I’m guessing. Completely. Educated, but still guessing.

So let’s look at our options beyond a typical short jaunt. Remember that we are in our kind of fatigued state at the start of the cool down…

Long cool down- Simply go for a longer cool down. Instead of the easy 2mi or so, go for 4,5,6mi. This is what we used to do in HS after races. Why? Partly to get in mileage, partly for no reason, and partly because we went really slow so we could get the girls on the team to run with us and cause mischief…but it was mostly for the putting in the extra miles…

So what could a longer cool down for you? You’re getting a light aerobic stimulus on fatigued muscles, meaning your probably training some fibers aerobically which normally aren’t. Secondly, you are dampening down the effect of something highly anaerobic if you do it after a anaerobic event (think 4x400 or a very fast speed session). This is briefly touched upon in Jan Olbrecht’s wonderful book Science of Winning. Why would you want to dampen down the effect? If you have a kid who is a high responder to anaerobic work and you don’t quite want it overwhelming the aerobic side of things.

Strides in cool down- One of the more intriguing cool down manipulations I experienced was a set of 10x100m strides with a turn around recovery as part of the cool down from a hard track session by Igloi disciple Joe Douglas. Why might this be good? Well two thoughts. First, it’s not long but its faster so once again your pushing activation of muscle a little more in a fatigued state. Secondly, you’re going through a bigger range of motion running wise, so it prevents that tightening up or change in tension too much.

Stretching cool down- As I mentioned before, in combination with strength training, while there have been only a few studies, stretching sometimes enhances strength performance. The theory is mostly based on the idea that the combined effect increases hypertrophy. Another possible mechanism is that stretching seems to increase select hormones, at least in animal models, such as IGF-1 (Yang et al. 1996). What does this mean? That stretching AFTER a workout might do something. Right now there’s slight evidence for increase in hyprtrophy. Remember that when stretching you are actually essentially tearing collagen bonds, so its possible that the adaptation occurs via a response to damaged tissue. So lots of questions to answer. Do we stretch for hypertrophy post workout if that’s the goal? Do we stretch to get a hormonal response to increase recovery? Or should we avoid stretching because it may increase damage to a muscle tissue that’s probably already damaged from the workout?

Strength in cool down.

Last but not least what about adding strength to the cool down. Whenever I trained out in Virginia with Scott Razcko we always did GS (general strength) right after runs/workouts. I think this is intriguing for two reasons. First, it has to be a great way to work on strength endurance. Think about it. You’re adding a strength component in a pre-fatigued state. Secondly, what happens hormonaly? Depending on the strength exercises selected, is it possible to get a hormonal change that enhances either adaptation or recovery?

And what about recovery?

Yes. Cool downs likely help recovery for feeling good the next day. Why? Well no one knows for sure. The increased blood flow thing for a while is one theory that makes sense. There could be a hormonal component. Then you have canova’s data where he stated that after an easy run you can get lower morning lactate levels. But one of my thoughts is this: a cool down simply manipulates tension in the muscle. You go from doing something hard and fast which will eventually jack up tension, and a cool down simply works to modulate that down a little bit. It’s why you probably feel better the next day if you cool down instead of going straight to the car…

Is there ever a time where you don’t want to cool down?

At first this seems blasphemous, but stop and think about it. Could there be a time when you don’t want to? It’s probably few and far between but would not cooling down give predominance to some anaerobic adaptation post “anaerobic” workout? I’m not sure I have the answer but it’s an intriguing question to think about.



So what?

The take away here is that we don’t have a lot of answers, but we do have a lot of intriguing possibilities. It’s time to change the way we think of a cool down. It should be another planned part of the training in certain situations. Once you shift it from being solely a part of recovery and instead see it as a way to manipulate adaptation, then questions arise and possibilities open.
 
Double posting because the mobile version the forum is still awful...

In short, cooldowns are a training stimulus. No beneficts to lactate, very little hormonal changes. Muscle tension changes matter, though muscle tension is poorly understood by scientists amd athletes alike.

Kenyans don't cooldown.

Ironically, the only post-workout intervention with serious implications is heavy resistance training, and only full body lifts, to cause some Hgh and Test production. Just enough to get some hormones, but not a lot of mechanical stress.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
More Strides than Rides said:
A good review here.
Or a link, if you'd like to see who wrote it n stuff :-/

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2012/09/rethinking-cool-down-and-xc-coach-at.html

*doesn't understand unattributed books being copied and pasted into the forum*
Thank you. I was just going to triple post to add the link: http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2012/09/rethinking-cool-down-and-xc-coach-at.html?m=1

The jumpyness of the mobile version makes pasting and editing incredibly difficult. The cursor jumps around, and moving between tabs can cause them to reload and lose the response
 
Re: Re:

D-Queued said:
red_flanders said:
shalgo said:
This does not directly answer the question, but I can say that "cool down" jogs were standard practice after high school track (running) races in the 1980s.

Incidentally, "warming down," as a phrase, has never made sense to me. If you warm up, then you cool down.
I can confirm that even in the backwater in which I grew up, warming down was standard in track, basketball and wrestling in the early/mid 80s. In football we didn't.

The Sky point however, is that they claim to have invented it for road cycling. I guess anyone watching or participating in a local race who watched the more motivated guys warm down on rollers or a stand behind their truck would be confused that Sky invented it 25 years later...
BS

First time I saw rollers in active use for recovery following a crit was one that none other than Lance Armstrong participated in in the early 90s (i.e. almost 25 years ago). Not that he was using them, but that they were definitely being used.

But, allow me to offer another citation:

Training For Cycling, Davis Phinney/Connie Carpenter, 1992

"To indoor bike or not.

...There will be plenty of time for stationary training later when the weather is bad and you want - or need - to ride. Limit the stationary bike to weight-training warm=up and/or warm-down. ..."

"Getting the most out of race days

Warm-down. Devote thirty minutes to an hour to warm-down immediately after your race..."


Benotti69 said:
Sky dont always do warms downs directly after races. I was in the parc ferme at a Tirreno Adriatico stage finish in Chieti and no one did a 'warm down'. Cav was riding for Sky and was their last rider to finish. In the mean time the whole Sky team got on the bus and never showed their face again and the bus departed as soon as Cav climbed aboard.
Sacrilege!!

Dave.
Of course it's BS. Guys were doing this at crits and road races in Seattle when I lived there in the 90s. I wasn't. But I sucked. Nothing marginal about the gains I needed.
 

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