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What does Contador have to do to be the greatest of all time?

Dec 14, 2009
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Love him or hate him, he must be the most complete rider in the pro peloton at the moment. Do you agree or disagree?

Are we witnessing the opening chapters of the career of the greatest rider of all time? His exploits are on the wiki page here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Contador

Contador appears to have every stage thought out beforehand; knowing when to attack or respond. He even changes his climbing style depending on how fast he wishes to go, locking his elbows into his body for sharper attacks.

Having won all grand tours, sharing this honour with only four other riders, whose record does he have to beat to become the great rider of all time? Eddy Merckx?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Eddy is the mark. Contador has to win every 3rd race he enters over a long time to match him.Most complete rider today I'd tip valverde...climbs with the best, TT's okay, but he can also sprint. I imagine Contador can sprint given the way he explodes in the mountains but it remains to be seen.
 
Apr 12, 2009
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eljimberino said:
Love him or hate him, he must be the most complete rider in the pro peloton at the moment. Do you agree or disagree?
I don't really agree. He can climb and time trial. Never proved a thing in one-day races, wouldn't be able to finish Paris-Roubaix,...

The last complete rider was Bettini. The next could be Edvald Boasson Hagen. At the moment, maybe Valverde.
Complete like Merckx isn't possible in modern cycling ofcourse.
 
Buffalo Soldier said:
I don't really agree. He can climb and time trial. Never proved a thing in one-day races, wouldn't be able to finish Paris-Roubaix,...

The last complete rider was Bettini. The next could be Edvald Boasson Hagen. At the moment, maybe Valverde.
Complete like Merckx isn't possible in modern cycling ofcourse.

Yeah, as much as I like AC in stage races, I wouldn't call him the most complete rider around. It very well may be Valverde. Alberto is definitely the most complete STAGE RACER in the world.
 
Buffalo Soldier said:
I don't really agree. He can climb and time trial. Never proved a thing in one-day races, wouldn't be able to finish Paris-Roubaix,...

The last complete rider was Bettini. The next could be Edvald Boasson Hagen. At the moment, maybe Valverde.
Complete like Merckx isn't possible in modern cycling ofcourse.

I think I would put Jalabert as the last complete rider. He won a large variety of races, everything from classics to GT general, points, and mountain classifications to time trials.

Contador has a real chance of winning the most GTs. If he were to win the Tour and Vuelta this year, he would have six. He would need six more. That is possible. He needs to ride two GTs a year. Does Astana have the support he would need to go for the Vuelta?

I hope he tries for the Giro-Tour double some time. If he succeeds he might even have a chance at winning all three in a season.

No way he matches Eddy's career.
 
I'm not sure that greatest is necessarily synonymous with most complete rider in this situation, although the greatest rider of course has a very good chance of being the most complete rider and vice versa.

Buffalo Soldier said:
Complete like Merckx isn't possible in modern cycling of course.

I strongly agree with the above statement.

I would like to see him have 2 or 3 more two grand tour win seasons (as well as the seemingly inevitable 4 or 5 more Tour wins) and that would really demonstrate serious greatness (if not completeness). I also agree that a Giro/Tour double would be a huge achievement.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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eljimberino said:
Love him or hate him, he must be the most complete rider in the pro peloton at the moment. Do you agree or disagree?


I don't think anyone will agree. He's the best climber and one of the best time triallists. He can't sprint, doesn't have the stamina for classics, doesn't have the tactical nous and can't cut it on the cobbles.

He's very far removed from being the most complete rider.

eljimberino said:
Are we witnessing the opening chapters of the career of the greatest rider of all time? His exploits are on the wiki page here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Contador

Contador appears to have every stage thought out beforehand; knowing when to attack or respond. He even changes his climbing style depending on how fast he wishes to go, locking his elbows into his body for sharper attacks.

Having won all grand tours, sharing this honour with only four other riders, whose record does he have to beat to become the great rider of all time? Eddy Merckx?

He won the three grand tours, the Vuelta al Pais Vasco and Paris-Nice. That's brilliant. Now "all he has to do" is win the 15 or so other major races a bunch of times over :p
 
Contador could be seen as the best GT rider ever for example if he wins more GTs than anyone else in my opinion. He probably won't win 8 Tours in a row beating the streak of Armstrong but he can still surpass Armstrong by winning lots of Tours and lots of Giros and Vueltas. He's already got 4 GT wins and the best is 11 for Merckx. If Contador can match or beat that then he would certainly be up there.
 
Mar 23, 2009
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what about Cancellara ... he won a stage race last year which showed he's improved in the mountains, proved himself in the Classics several times, outsprinted the sprinters on a few occasions (remember the Roubaix stage of the '07 TdF) & apparently he can do time trials as well :D

on topic: Alberto would have to win every classic at least twice in order to come close to Eddy ;) ... okay, he'd only have to do Paris-Tours once :D:D
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Publicus said:
Yeah, as much as I like AC in stage races, I wouldn't call him the most complete rider around. It very well may be Valverde. Alberto is definitely the most complete STAGE RACER in the world.

+1

Currently he is the greatest stage racer, but there are numerous Classics he could not win. Nobody will ever do what Merckx did; racing has changed too much.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Yes, in my limited knowledge I agree that racing has changed too much. But from what I can tell, it's actually harder now. There is a greater turn over of talented riders. More races. More professional teams. Greater specialties of individual riders.

The 2010 ToF looks to be stacked with many great riders.

From what I can tell, Merckx normally only had to mark three GC contenders. And his opposing teams were not as organised. Domestiques were too busy raiding cafe's to be setting furious tempo's at the front of the field.

In conclusion, I make this statement: if Contador does match Merckx's GT wins, I argue the feat would be greater.
 
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eljimberino said:
Love him or hate him, he must be the most complete rider in the pro peloton at the moment. Do you agree or disagree?

Disagree entirely.

He is the most complete grand tour rider in the pro pelaton, and with a strong team around him, is the most complete short stage race rider in races involving hills, in the pro pelaton.

Has he done anything in flanders yet, or roubaix, or the world championships...

Hes got a long long way to go to be the greatest of all time. I doubt he will ever do it. In fact, i doubt anyone ever will. Some may claim greatest sprinter of all time, greatest classics rider, greatest tour rider...

But greatest rider, dont think that one will be done by anybody.. Maybe Peter Kennaugh.. :D

eljimberino said:
In conclusion, I make this statement: if Contador does match Merckx's GT wins, I argue the feat would be greater.

Again, disagree. AC has had the benefit of a very strong team behind him each time, modern technology such as radio, a bike that it probably 10lb lighter than eddies..

It would be interesting for them to run an old style tour de france. Make the riders ride 15-20kg bikes, carry their own tubes and gear with them, take away their radios, make the stages 250km every day, and cover the nice tarmacced roads with a layer of shale and shingle.. I dont reckon the likes of AC would even podium.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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What does Contador have to do to be the greatest? Nothing, because he'll never be the greatest. And though we'll never see another Merckx, and it is impossible to truly compare eras, the palmares of the riders Merckx faced are better than anything you'll find in the peloton today.

But Contador has the ability to be remembered as one of the very best and that's not a bad thing to aspire to.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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sTTevie said:
what about Cancellara ... he won a stage race last year which showed he's improved in the mountains, proved himself in the Classics several times, outsprinted the sprinters on a few occasions (remember the Roubaix stage of the '07 TdF) & apparently he can do time trials as well :D

on topic: Alberto would have to win every classic at least twice in order to come close to Eddy ;) ... okay, he'd only have to do Paris-Tours once :D:D

Good candidate for most complete rider. Any others? Think Contador is too much of a stage race specialist to be considered "complete" and is years away from Eddy Merckxs record. Having said that, he could win an Ardennes classic if he wanted to.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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BroDeal said:
I think I would put Jalabert as the last complete rider. He won a large variety of races, everything from classics to GT general, points, and mountain classifications to time trials.

Contador has a real chance of winning the most GTs. If he were to win the Tour and Vuelta this year, he would have six. He would need six more. That is possible. He needs to ride two GTs a year. Does Astana have the support he would need to go for the Vuelta?

I hope he tries for the Giro-Tour double some time. If he succeeds he might even have a chance at winning all three in a season.

No way he matches Eddy's career.

I would hope for his sake that he doesn't announce any intentions of doing the Vuelta *this* year. Astana is clearly a bit touch and go as it is, and if Vino doesn't get a chance to lead in Spain (provided he doesn't do the Giro), it may be the tipping point.

I am on board with your suggestion of him trying the Giro-Tour double.

Veering a bit off-topic: I am really disappointed that the 2010 Giro is going to miss out on most, if not all, of the big names. If any year should see a battle between Contador and Scheck in Italy, this is it. Sadly, we won't even get to see the defending champion in it.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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AC the most complete rider ... never. There is no way he can be compared to Eddy Merckx, as many have already said in this thread. Eddy is the only rider to have won all three GTs (5 TdFs, 5 Giros, 1 Vuelta) and all five of the cycling monuments (7 MSRs, 2 Rondes, 3 PRs, 5 LBLs, 2 Giro di Lombardias) as well as being thrice WC. In the 1969, he won the yellow, green and polka dot jerseys. In 1972, after winning the TdF, Giro and four classics, he broke the hour record (which stood for 13 years). From 1969 to 1973, he won between 33-45% of races he competed in. Incomparable. Look at his major wins by year:
1966 - MSR
1967 - MSR, La Fleche Wallone, WC
1968 - PR, Giro
1969 - MSR, Ronde, LBL, TdF
1970 - TdF, Giro
1971 - MSR, LBL, TdF, WC, Giro di Lombardia
1972 - MSR, LBL, TdF, Giro, Giro di Lombardia
1973 - PR, LBL, Giro, Vuelta
1974 - TdF, Giro, WC
1975 - MSR, Ronde, LBL
1976 - MSR

But there were also many other great riders who would rank above AC as more complete riders. Four riders have won a GT and Monument in the same year: Eddy, Coppi, Bobet and Hinault. Look at their records and you'll see much more complete riders than AC:
- Coppi: 5 Giros, 2 TdFs, 1 WC, 3 MSRs, 1 PR, 1 La Fleche Wallone, 5 Giro di Lombardias
- Bobet: 3 TdFs, 1 WC, 1 MSR, 1 Giro di Lombardia, 1 Ronde
- Hinault: 5 TdFs, 3 Giros, 2 Vueltas, 1 PR, 2 LBLs, 2 Giro di Lombardias, 1 WC, 2 La Fleche Wallones, 1 Amstel Gold, 1 Ghent-Wevelgem

Roche won the triple crown (TdF, Giro and World Championship) in 1987, which Eddy did in 1974. Fignon was the last GT winner to have won a monument (MSR).

So who IMO is the most complete rider in the current peloton? Well, doping aside, there are some legitimate claims for:
- Valverde: 1 Vuelta, 2 Dauphine, 2 LBLs, 1 La Fleche Wallone
- Cunego: 1 Giro, 3 Tour di Lombardias, 1 Amstel Gold
- Vinokourov: 1 Vuelta, 1 Paris-Nice, 1 Tour de Suisse, 1 Dauphine, 1 LBL, 1 Amstel Gold
- Di Luca: 1 Giro, 1 LBL, 1 La Fleche Wallone,, 1 Amstel Gold, 1 Tour di Lombardia
- Evans: 2nd twice TdF, 3rd and 4th Vuelta, 2nd twice Dauphine, WC, 2nd and 5th La Fleche Wallone
- Andy Schleck: 2nd Giro, 2nd TdF, 1 LBL, 2nd La Fleche Wallone, 4th Giro di Lombardia

Vino's too old, Cunego is concentrating on the classics and GT stage wins, and Di Luca is suspended. Valverde is probably the most complete rider of the remaining three candidates, but is not as good a climber as either Evans or Andy Schleck which tends to limit his GT opportunities. However, he is a better sprinter and overall rider and that suites his classics aspirations. He may also be out of contention depending on the upcoming CAS ruling. For the future though, Andy Schleck and Edvald Boasson Hagen are the two most likely riders to win GTs and classics.

As for the best stage racer, AC is obviously the best of the current riders. But the best ever? He has to win many more stage races, both GTs and others, before he gets into the same realm as Merckx (11), Hinault (10), Anquetil (8), Coppi (7), Indurain (7), Gimondi (5) and Bartali (5). AC races on instinct and his tactical knowledge and ability to read a race is definitely questionable. While he has the talent now to get away with that deficiency, he will get older and slower and this may not always be the case. As for beating the total number of GT wins, he will likely need to target more than one GT per year but it is also very difficult to win two GTs per year (only 10 riders, including AC, have achieved this feat; Merckx did the TdF-Giro double three times and the Giro-Vuelta double once, while Coppi, Indurain and Hinault did the TdF-Giro double twice).
 
elapid said:
So who IMO is the most complete rider in the current peloton? Well, doping aside, there are some legitimate claims for:
- Valverde: 1 Vuelta, 2 Dauphine, 2 LBLs, 1 La Fleche Wallone
- Cunego: 1 Giro, 3 Tour di Lombardias, 1 Amstel Gold
- Vinokourov: 1 Vuelta, 1 Paris-Nice, 1 Tour de Suisse, 1 Dauphine, 1 LBL, 1 Amstel Gold
- Di Luca: 1 Giro, 1 LBL, 1 La Fleche Wallone,, 1 Amstel Gold, 1 Tour di Lombardia
- Evans: 2nd twice TdF, 3rd and 4th Vuelta, 2nd twice Dauphine, WC, 2nd and 5th La Fleche Wallone
- Andy Schleck: 2nd Giro, 2nd TdF, 1 LBL, 2nd La Fleche Wallone, 4th Giro di Lombardia
If you're going to list your favorites';) also ran positions in races (Evans and Schleck) you may as well be fair and do the same for the rest of your candidates:

-Valverde: 3rd & 4th (or 5th) Vuelta, 2nd & 3rd World's RR, 2nd Paris-Nice (and you neglected to list his Classica San Sebastian win which if you're going to include Amstel Gold for someone else, it is equal in value), and if I recall correctly a 3rd place at Amstel the year Cunego won
-Vino: 3rd Tour de France, podium at WC with Ullrich and someone else who I can't remember

This is just what I can recall off the top of my head.:)

As far as Contador goes, he will likely not ever be on the level of great all-around riders of the past but he will definitely be, if he continues with the success he's had over the past 3 years, one of the greatest stage racers in the history of the sport. He's has been quoted as wanting to eventually try to start the Ardennes in competitive form to see what he can do. As far as someone's statement that he lacks the stamina for them, I'd have to disagree.
One of his biggest assets is his ability to quickly recover from hard efforts, generally faster than his opponents. I can't see why he can't do well in any of the 3 events since he has the explosive power on the climbs to make a gap and hold it or even increase upon it which is unmatched in today's peloton. Valverde has that final explosive sprint but Contador's is a longer and more sustained weapon, thus his ability to create a gap in mountains and continue to increase upon it. When his attacks come I can't recall anyone being able to bridge to his wheel when he is really cranking away out of the saddle-at least not in the past 2 years.

I also think Valverde is at least Evans' equal in climbing, it's in the TT that he loses time to Evans. He finally showed discipline and restraint in this year's Vuelta so I'm personally hoping that he's matured to where those one bad days that he used to have that knocked him out of contention are a thing of the past.
 
May 15, 2009
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Vino actually won 2 Paris-Nice and also three TDF stages (don't forget third place, 2003), IMO he, and not Jaja, is the last complete rider.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Angliru said:
If you're going to list your favorites';) also ran positions in races (Evans and Schleck) you may as well be fair and do the same for the rest of your candidates:

-Valverde: 3rd & 4th (or 5th) Vuelta, 2nd & 3rd World's RR, 2nd Paris-Nice (and you neglected to list his Classica San Sebastian win which if you're going to include Amstel Gold for someone else, it is equal in value), and if I recall correctly a 3rd place at Amstel the year Cunego won
-Vino: 3rd Tour de France, podium at WC with Ullrich and someone else who I can't remember

This is just what I can recall off the top of my head.:)

Good points. I only used non-wins for Evans and Schlecklet because, unlike Valverde and Vino, they came close but did not win. Just an example of their breadth. In regards to my favourites, I would actually chose both Valverde and Vino above Evans and Andy Schleck (although I will defend Evans against most of the naysayers!).
 
Aug 12, 2009
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eljimberino said:
Yes, in my limited knowledge I agree that racing has changed too much. But from what I can tell, it's actually harder now. There is a greater turn over of talented riders. More races. More professional teams. Greater specialties of individual riders.

The 2010 ToF looks to be stacked with many great riders.

From what I can tell, Merckx normally only had to mark three GC contenders. And his opposing teams were not as organised. Domestiques were too busy raiding cafe's to be setting furious tempo's at the front of the field.

In conclusion, I make this statement: if Contador does match Merckx's GT wins, I argue the feat would be greater.

They banned you, a poll was made about you and yet you return, arisen like a Phoenix from the ashes. Behave yourself this time. To those who don't recognise him, there a tell tale signs, open your eyes, remember and then use that brain of yours (language and grammar gives it away).
 
UpTheRoad said:
I would hope for his sake that he doesn't announce any intentions of doing the Vuelta *this* year. Astana is clearly a bit touch and go as it is, and if Vino doesn't get a chance to lead in Spain (provided he doesn't do the Giro), it may be the tipping point.

I am on board with your suggestion of him trying the Giro-Tour double.

Veering a bit off-topic: I am really disappointed that the 2010 Giro is going to miss out on most, if not all, of the big names. If any year should see a battle between Contador and Scheck in Italy, this is it. Sadly, we won't even get to see the defending champion in it.

Vino is riding the Giro as team leader. But I do agree with you that Giro is getting the shaft this year by most of the contenders.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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dimspace said:
Again, disagree. AC has had the benefit of a very strong team behind him each time, modern technology such as radio, a bike that it probably 10lb lighter than eddies..

It would be interesting for them to run an old style tour de france. Make the riders ride 15-20kg bikes, carry their own tubes and gear with them, take away their radios, make the stages 250km every day, and cover the nice tarmacced roads with a layer of shale and shingle.. I dont reckon the likes of AC would even podium.

I would have to disagree here, bike weight is relative (Eddy's competition were not riding AC's bikes). Second, there is more money being poured into the sport allowing the top riders to pick and choose their race and peak for different events. If AC won more GT than Eddy it would be against top riders who have targeted each tour as the one they were going for.

As for the conditions, that is also relative (to a certain extent) since all the riders Eddy's was competing against had to ride the same conditions.

That being, said I doubt that AC will have the Classic wins, or the three doubles that Merckx had just to match.
 

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