What dou you think about EU thing?

[oldborn]

I am sick and tired of goverment trying to convinced people that we would live better in EU. So Croatia will join EU for two years now, i am all enthusiastic for sure.
So question for EU people; do you live better or having more money, bigger farm, better health care, education or something else while in EU.

I would not ask Germans cos i now what they are thinking about euro thing, they are still crying for good old Deutsche Mark Brits are laughing for sure.

IMHO only people who would live better are those few hundreds birocrats an politicians in Bruxeless which i hardly beleive people would know they exist or how they where selected/voted for.

 

[L'arriviste]

I am sick and tired of goverment trying to convinced people that we would live better in EU. So Croatia will join EU for two years now, i am all enthusiastic for sure.
So question for EU people; do you live better or having more money, bigger farm, better health care, education or something else while in EU.

I would not ask Germans cos i now what they are thinking about euro thing, they are still crying for good old Deutsche Mark Brits are laughing for sure.

IMHO only people who would live better are those few hundreds birocrats an politicians in Bruxeless which i hardly beleive people would know they exist or how they where selected/voted for.

Yes, Croatia will join in 2012 or 2013. It's not easy to answer your question. People from every member state of the EU have unique views because for each of them, the pros and cons are totally different. The big problem in my opinion is ignorance, either because governments smokescreen the realities or because people simply do not bother to educate themselves before discussing the issues.

Here in Belgium I find that people tend to know plenty about their position within the EU even though most who are not themselves from Brussels try to erase the city from their mental processes, tied up as it is with the tangle of both Belgian and EU politics. In my country of origin (Britain) however, people complain almost universally about the EU but most of these know next to nothing about it. They also fail to realise the duplicity of successive British governments, which play tough at home but accede to everything at the table of discussion.

As for the Eurocrats, let's just say that it's plenty more than a few hundred. There are over 31,000 people here in Brussels working for the EU and there are also many others orbiting around it who provide expertise to the institutions, myself included.

It's rather like the business of mining for precious metals. Dirty, labour intensive, frequently confusing, replete with outside interests and, occasionally, one finds a small diamond in the midst of the vast morass.

As for Croatians, you may live better. Be warned though. Prices will rise suddenly and hugely: food, property, everything. I have a Romanian colleague who bought an apartment in a new building just before the rush. The rest of the building was bought out months later by British funds. Today his apartment, in which his aunt lives currently, is worth fourteen times what it was three years ago. His aunt, however, cannot find a dentist and must wait several weeks to see a doctor for many of them have gone to seek their fortune elsewhere in "developed" Europe. This same poor lady has problems paying her food bills. They were promised that competition in the food markets would increase and drive prices down. The competition came but the prices went up as Romanian produce was steadily supplanted by imports.

Time will tell, eventually. Some do well, others do not. If your leaders and captains of industry are honest, invest in and work for the interests of the country's future, then things should improve: the Czech Republic and Slovenia are good examples of EU-driven success. Not total success but aggregate improvement. If they mismanage things for reasons of self or incompetence, there will be trouble in five to ten years hence. See Ireland, where the trickledown to ordinary people was all but non-existent.

 

[Cobblestones]

If you look at the past two decades, probably the largest political progress made is within the EU. Common currency, open borders for goods AND people, the harmonization of regulations etc.

The biggest problem I see is that not very much of the progress is backed by democratic processes which probably is more indicative of structural problems of democracy in itself.

 

[washedup]

As for the Eurocrats, let's just say that it's plenty more than a few hundred. There are over 31,000 people here in Brussels working for the EU and there are also many others orbiting around it who provide expertise to the institutions, myself included.

I wish I could find the exact numbers, but if I recall the EU and surrounding firms, plus NATO account for 10-12% of Belgian GDP. Something around 100K people in direct and indirect functions. Also need to consider spouses. The EU works well for the local economy.

Factor in the 350K Flemish commuters each day and you have an interesting city. Just waiting to see people riding or the roof of the train or hanging onto doors just to find space

 

[oldborn]

L'arriviste it is obviuos that you are working for EU Nice post.
Ignorance is playing a huge role, yesterday here we had "EU Fonds day" give me a break, instead of 800 000 euros for two years until full membership, Croatia will have 400 000, and people still celabrating.
There is only one small-minor party against EU, cos it is almost blasphemy to say against EU membership.

I was thinking about few hundreds people from here working in EU institutions (7000 e+) and there is already carnage for those places.

Romania/Bulgaria is lough, they only join EU cos NATO vs Russia issue.
I am allways say look at Norway, is there people starving or something?
As for prices i realized that when Slovenia joined EU, and euro replace Austrian schilling, that was scene, prices just went up, and what was 500 schilling became 450 euros
See Greece, Portugal, and Ireland (as you mention), it is a example how EU membership brings a lot of German mainly bank money to people, but eventually you must pay for it.

Coblestones, borders regulations here (France/Danmark) would be history one day, lot of poor Libian people.

 

[L'arriviste]

L'arriviste it is obviuos that you are working for EU Nice post.
Ignorance is playing a huge role, yesterday here we had "EU Fonds day" give me a break, instead of 800 000 euros for two years until full membership, Croatia will have 400 000, and people still celabrating.
There is only one small-minor party against EU, cos it is almost blasphemy to say against EU membership.

I was thinking about few hundreds people from here working in EU institutions (7000 e+) and there is already carnage for those places.

Romania/Bulgaria is lough, they only join EU cos NATO vs Russia issue.
I am allways say look at Norway, is there people starving or something?
As for prices i realized that when Slovenia joined EU, and euro replace Austrian schilling, that was scene, prices just went up, and what was 500 schilling became 450 euros
See Greece, Portugal, and Ireland (as you mention), it is a example how EU membership brings a lot of German mainly bank money to people, but eventually you must pay for it.

Coblestones, borders regulations here (France/Danmark) would be history one day, lot of poor Libian people.

I don't work for the EU but I am quite close to it and I read the Economist regularly which offers a broad, if perhaps rather too capitalistic, viewpoint of the EU and the enlargement issue. As you have described, the picture is very complex.

Certainly, Croatia has received funding and trade preferences for some years already as an EU candidate and neighbour. The road building programme of the last few years is one noticeable example.

Croatians need to be ready and well-informed. Joining the EU is a bit like when they turn on those wave machines at the swimming pool. Some will love the buzz, others will need to concentrate and going with the waves and staying buoyant. Most importantly, prior knowledge and awareness is key to both types of swimmer!

EU membership will most benefit skilled, mobile and prepared Croatian youth and those who have a bit of money already. It will be less beneficial for the poor, unskilled and unready.

If a well-managed, responsible Croatia has sufficient infrastructure and opportunities to prevent a "brain drain" migration West by its most talented and mobile people, the country can expect to benefit in the long-term.

Bulgaria and Romania have failed to prevent this type of massive migration and will suffer, while similar movements from Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic have proved to be more elastic, with citizens who left a few years ago now returning with new skills, experience, ambition and money.

Fiscally, Croatia will need to cope with considerable inward investment and an increase in the rate of inflation such as has probably not been experienced in living memory. This hits the poor most of all, of course, because prices rise and those who are already better off are the ones who can handle it.

Defence strategy is not the direct concern of the EU, although certainly some member states will want to see an intrinsic shift in defence policy as a corollary effect of membership. Pushing the borders further east is a worry to many and while Croatia will receive assistance in this regard, it will not be easy to manage the tide from the east.

 

[craig1985]

So what benefit is it to the citizens of say Estonia who adopted the euro currency this year then to their previous currency? I was in Lithuania in '07 and I knew that the country tried to adopt the euro but it kept getting blocked by the EU because of inflation concerns.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Croatia hasn't been a democratic country that long, it seems a shame to throw away such hard won rights so soon. Maybe your fellow countrymen are happier doing as the Germans and French say. The Greek government seem to think that the Germans and French know best, how is it turning out for them?

 

[L'arriviste]

Croatia hasn't been a democratic country that long, it seems a shame to throw away such hard won rights so soon. Maybe your fellow countrymen are happier doing as the Germans and French say. The Greek government seem to think that the Germans and French know best, how is it turning out for them?

Not to defend the EU - not least because the current decisionmaking over Greece has very little to do with the institution of the EU per se - but Greece is almost entirely responsible for the situation in which it finds itself. The rest is attributable to global economics.

France and Germany are trying to avoid a run on the euro which, while certainly of great importance to both of them, is important to all of the countries in the euro currency. Where France and Germany have some reason to shout the odds on how Greek fiscal policy is because it's them who are paying out most and because they stand to lose most as big, comparatively responsible economies.

So it's not so much a question of knowing best, it is a question of self-defence against what was always one of the worst of the euro's many weaknesses. Greece now has little choice than to do as it's told, because printing a new drachma is tantamount to, some would argue worse than, a default. The euro might be a totem of "ever closer union", but now is not the time for questioning long past decisions. Looking at this situation as being characterised mainly by matters of democracy or national sovereignty isn't really keeping step with the actual problems that Greece and the eurozone face today.

 

[Bala Verde]

Let's not forget that France and Germany are 'bailing out ' Greece, because their banks are exposed either through bonds or credit default swaps. If Greece collapses, their Banks will most likely be hit worst (which will have international ramifications, because other banks have interests in those banks). The bail out is as much an effort to contain contagion, support the home financial industry and save the euro.

(Not to say I agree with how it's handled, because the excessively strict austerity measures will turn Greece into an anemic country in terms of GDP growth for the next decade, which means they won't be able to repay the loans they are receiving. It's catch 22, here's money, but you only get it when you cut all this spending --> shrinks the economy --> less money to repay loans --> less secure they repay --> more austerity --> less money etc. Since no one focuses on the society as a whole, and is more interested in key economic indicators and financials, the country is being strangled slowly. That the situation is 90% their fault seems to be undisputed; they cooked the books with the help of Goldman Sachs, they spent more than they were allowed to as per EU rules, they had trouble collecting enough taxes/revenue)

I do believe the EU has had a really important impact on Europe, and especially the democratic and financial development of the region. Turkey, although they have been left to dry for too long, but hey the Cyprus issue doesn't resolve itself overnight, has led to enormous progress in the country, democratically as well as economically. The same applies to a number of former central and eastern European states. The carrot, admission to Europe, has forced them to pass through fundamental reforms that I believe ultimately will have an important effect on how they treat their citizens.

Unfortunately, once countries are in the EU, there is a lot less that can be done to 'keep them on track'.

Then, the best enforced human rights system is found in Europe, with the Council of Europe and the European Convention on Human Rights, which has to be ratified before accession to the EU. Independent and largely objective, it has enforced and upheld basic rights of European citizens, from Russia to France, to Turkey, to the Netherlands.

The common market has made Europe thrive as well, given that the US is its largest trading partner, any imported product can now easily move around within the EU. Common internal policies have also made it much easier to conduct transborder criminal investigations, and cooperation between countries to deal with transnational crime has never been better.

It's far from perfect, but I do believe it's has been key to Europe's path to prosperity.

I also like it that I don't have to change currency when I travel in Europe

 

[Cobblestones]

So what benefit is it to the citizens of say Estonia who adopted the euro currency this year then to their previous currency? I was in Lithuania in '07 and I knew that the country tried to adopt the euro but it kept getting blocked by the EU because of inflation concerns.

It would remove some overhead wrt international trade. Normally, you'd need some financial management to ensure that when a price is agreed on in Estonian currency, it will be a certain equivalent in US$ or Euro or whatever. So, either you accept the risk of changing conversion rates, or you insure the risk (for a fee).

The country itself has the advantage that their currency is less an object of speculation. How that often played out in the past, is that speculators, betting against a currency, started to sell large quantities of it. The country in question was then forced to buy it up (depleting its own currency reserves). In the end, the speculators usually won at great expense for the taxpayer.

The disadvantage is that you give up some instruments such as voluntary devaluation, and control of the printing press. The consequences you can see with Greece. The only mechanisms for correction is speculation against the sovereign debt.

 

[rhubroma]

One thing I dislike about the EU is that it has, in creating an economic union, tried to establish common standards and laws regarding the production of agriculture and food products, with the result that some countries have had certain traditions wiped out or modified.

I'm thinking of Tocai in Friuli no longer able to be called Tocai, because the right to do so was given to Hungary.

Some of the decisions being made by the politicians in Brussels are not being done on a cultural, but merely pragmatic economic, basis; and this is slowly transforming the patch-work of societies and civilizations that make up the union into something less appealing and more homogenized. And thus not always for the better.

Then at times the more powerful nations like France and Germany can exercise the necessary pressure to be able to set certain agendas to their interest, more than the weaker ones. Its the natural order, of course, though sometimes the unfairness becomes all too evident.

 

[Cobblestones]

One thing I dislike about the EU is that it has, in creating an economic union, tried to establish common standards and laws regarding the production of agriculture and food products, with the result that some countries have had certain traditions wiped out or modified.

I'm thinking of Tocai in Friuli no longer able to be called Tocai, because the right to do so was given to Hungary.

Some of the decisions being made by the politicians in Brussels are not being done on a cultural, but merely pragmatic economic, basis; and this is slowly transforming the patch-work of societies and civilizations that make up the union into something less appealing and more homogenized. And thus not always for the better.

Then at times the more powerful nations like France and Germany can exercise the necessary pressure to be able to set certain agendas to their interest, more than the weaker ones. Its the natural order, of course, though sometimes the unfairness becomes all too evident.

And still, just as in US politics, the small states are in fact overrepresented. I'm also not convinced that the EU is the mainly to blame for 'homogenization'. Globalization will do that for you anyway.

 

[rhubroma]

And still, just as in US politics, the small states are in fact overrepresented. I'm also not convinced that the EU is the mainly to blame for 'homogenization'. Globalization will do that for you anyway.

Or the EU is itself both an effect and process of globalization.

As far as "overrepresentation" goes, the relationship between Big States vs Small States is the macrocosmic version of the microcosm of large vs. small political parties in the parliamentary governments of the individual member states that make up the union and, as such, means that the there will always be weak central authority.

 

[oldborn]

Someone mention ex Cheslovakia which i have been visited back in 90 s, what a economy colaps then, only thing you could bought was hockey equipment and you are having trouble to spent 100 DM for week, nice time for me.
Now it is whole new story, those people are driving nice cars and having more money for sure, but ...-

Who gaves credits for Greece? Mostly German, Italian banks who did not care much, and when someone says that EU are saving Greece it is lough, come one no one is gaving them money, those are loans, bonds etc which Greece should pay for it later.

Here foreign banks own almost 90% of market, so let me show you today ofer i received from bank owned by Italian Groupo Intessa or something. They ofer me 13. 400 EUR, with 12,67% interest, monthly payment 229,30 EUR, and i should pay for that 19.663,20 EUR at the end, is not that ripoff.

I wonder how much interest are in Italy Mother bank?

Yes some countries lives maybe better, but starting potentials which Portugal, Ireland had are gone.

IMF Chick (Zuzulova or something) who are responsible for SE Europe as well, said before couple of days that we should cut labor costs, wtf. go to ****ing China or Africa instead cutting poor people money.

I know that investors like security, laws, and maybe we are going to have that when joined EU, but please do not convince me that they are going to invest in green industry, small bussines etc rather then in shoping mall.

People think that Balkans (-Slovenia, do not know why cos it is 1/2 hour drive from my place, and they are something different) are bunch of savages and head hunters, i must admit it is somehow true, so what are we going to be EU savages, instead genuine ones?

 

[Captain_Cavman]

Not to defend the EU - not least because the current decisionmaking over Greece has very little to do with the institution of the EU per se - but Greece is almost entirely responsible for the situation in which it finds itself. The rest is attributable to global economics.

France and Germany are trying to avoid a run on the euro which, while certainly of great importance to both of them, is important to all of the countries in the euro currency. Where France and Germany have some reason to shout the odds on how Greek fiscal policy is because it's them who are paying out most and because they stand to lose most as big, comparatively responsible economies.

So it's not so much a question of knowing best, it is a question of self-defence against what was always one of the worst of the euro's many weaknesses. Greece now has little choice than to do as it's told, because printing a new drachma is tantamount to, some would argue worse than, a default. The euro might be a totem of "ever closer union", but now is not the time for questioning long past decisions. Looking at this situation as being characterised mainly by matters of democracy or national sovereignty isn't really keeping step with the actual problems that Greece and the eurozone face today.

I think you misunderestimate the situation as GWB might say. The EU would love a run on the Euro, the major world economies have been desperately trying to devalue for the last three years.

The key as Bala Verde stated above, is that of the detonation of banks that are technically insolvent. And the detonation of the economies in which those banks operate, Germany and France in the case of a Greek default. And also the domino effect of other banks exposed to those primary banks being detonated too.

The interest due on Greek two year debt is running at over 25% and over 17% for ten year debt. They are being told that the Greek taxpayer is going to have to pay this interest. This is not something they have to do, it is something that is being forced upon them by the leaders of other countries. Is that a good thing? It's indefensible as far as I'm concerned.

I think you've got this idea that a default is tantamount to being hit by a meteorite. It isn't, ask the people of Iceland, Argentina, etc, etc. Short term hardship, long term gain. What the Greeks have had forced on them is perpetual slavery.

Plus, I disagree that Greece is nearly entirely responsible for its economic position. If you have a mutual arrangement, it is up to all parties to make sure that all parties are able to comply with its terms. The Greeks lied to get themselves in the club, but the rest of the gang colluded with those lies with a wink and a nudge too.

And finally, the EU has many strands, economic, legislative, social etc. As time has passed it has become apparent that each strand needs bolstering by tightening the bonds of another strand - usually in a blatantly undemocratic way. The collapse of the Euro will have a significant impact on the EU to make any 'progress' in other areas.

 

[Cobblestones]

I would largely agree with the post above.

The main change with the introduction of the Euro was that the risk connected to exchange rates was rolled over to an increased risk of defaulting on sovereign debt. It's simply that the markets hadn't realized this and now banks are crying left and right to avoid a default which would expose them to a degree which they haven't foreseen.

The problem is again a problem of missing regulation and oversight. Investment banks should be separate from other banking operations such that defaults on that scale can occur. AIG, BoA, City Bank and many others should have been able to default in 2008. So should whatever banks are overexposed in the current crisis. There shouldn't be the need to socialize losses as long as gains are privatized. The other alternative would be to socialize each and every financial institution above a certain size.

 

[craig1985]

I think you misunderestimate the situation as GWB might say. The EU would love a run on the Euro, the major world economies have been desperately trying to devalue for the last three years.

The key as Bala Verde stated above, is that of the detonation of banks that are technically insolvent. And the detonation of the economies in which those banks operate, Germany and France in the case of a Greek default. And also the domino effect of other banks exposed to those primary banks being detonated too.

The interest due on Greek two year debt is running at over 25% and over 17% for ten year debt. They are being told that the Greek taxpayer is going to have to pay this interest. This is not something they have to do, it is something that is being forced upon them by the leaders of other countries. Is that a good thing? It's indefensible as far as I'm concerned.

I think you've got this idea that a default is tantamount to being hit by a meteorite. It isn't, ask the people of Iceland, Argentina, etc, etc. Short term hardship, long term gain. What the Greeks have had forced on them is perpetual slavery.

Plus, I disagree that Greece is nearly entirely responsible for its economic position. If you have a mutual arrangement, it is up to all parties to make sure that all parties are able to comply with its terms. The Greeks lied to get themselves in the club, but the rest of the gang colluded with those lies with a wink and a nudge too.

And finally, the EU has many strands, economic, legislative, social etc. As time has passed it has become apparent that each strand needs bolstering by tightening the bonds of another strand - usually in a blatantly undemocratic way. The collapse of the Euro will have a significant impact on the EU to make any 'progress' in other areas.

That's almost like going to a loan shark to borrow money. Of course you won't pay it back in time, because they don't want you to so they can make more money off you through the extra interest that you pay.

 

[python]

what do i think about the eu ?

not to use too many words... it's an enormously bloated, politically and militarily impotent structure that has shown its worth commercially and financially, but only just.

it will continue stumbling along for some time as long as the delicate balance between the old rich countries (generating the bulk of investment capital) and the new members (providing markets and inexpensive human resource) wont get upset by the rising competitors from the East.

 

[oldborn]

what do i think about the eu ?

not to use too many words... it's an enormously bloated, politically and militarily impotent structure that has shown its worth commercially and financially, but only just.

it will continue stumbling along for some time as long as the delicate balance between the old rich countries (generating the bulk of investment capital) and the new members (providing markets and inexpensive human resource) wont get upset by the rising competitors from the East.

That is what i call nice old EU scepticism, the problem is that you immediately becomes nationalist, chauvinist, extreme right, KKK, anti imigrant, and just so no European. Remember past Jorg Heider and EU politics concerning Austria at that time, i mean come on.

Anyway who vote for that character, he is in charge? I can imagine those birocrats in crisis or war.



Why no country did not left EU yet?

 

[Captain_Cavman]

...

Why no country did not left EU yet?

As Harry Enfield once said, "It's better to be in the train pissing out, than to be running along the platform trying to piss in.