What if Armstrong

[Oldman]

If I felt the urge to defend Armstrong in a doping message board by bringing up all these old talking points I'd make sure to read USADA's Reasoned Decision first which already addresses pretty much all of them, but maybe that's just me

These kind of urges are best treated with laxatives.

 

[Charlyghoul]

...only before the big Cols. Then a skinny, self-sacrificing domestique could help. Lance couldn't climb for sh*t when he was on the National team. Big George Hincapie had more clean talent than Armstrong but lacked the sheer greed and soulless will to cheat.
Lance and Ochowicz basically turned each teammate into a lesser drug cheats "to help" and then compelled them to go full throttle. To quit was to be ruined.

That is nonsense.
Lance was a national triathlon champion.
He was a multiple classic winner before cancer
He was a world champion before cancer
He was twice 2nd in liege, 2nd in Paris-nice
He showed all the credentials of a future tour winner.
Hincapies palmares consists of a gent wevelgem.
He never showed any kind of real climbing ability, he was a poor man’s Jens voigt let off the leash. A solid rouleur, he never showed anything beyond that.

 

[noob]

What I find the most weird with Lance, Rasmussen Brunyel and the other life banned cyclists and DS is why on earth they have jumped on the wagon again so many years later. The world who hated them so much? How on earth is that they want back in?! I am just so fascinated by it as it feels so incredibly self destructive.

 

[Oldman]

That is nonsense.
Lance was a national triathlon champion.
He was a multiple classic winner before cancer
He was a world champion before cancer
He was twice 2nd in liege, 2nd in Paris-nice
He showed all the credentials of a future tour winner.
Hincapies palmares consists of a gent wevelgem.
He never showed any kind of real climbing ability, he was a poor man’s Jens voigt let off the leash. A solid rouleur, he never showed anything beyond that.

All of it doped. Doped as a junior tri-athlete, junior USAC cyclist and very much more so with Motorola, pre-Ferrari.
Pre-cancer: 2 different amateur teammates of mine beat him in pro TT's while being stagiares for two of his pro squads.
When he was a neo-pro my amateur team was only bested by Hincapie and the winner from Coors on the last, long hilltop finish. As a 40+ yo amateur domestique for that teammate I came in top 20 and put 5 minutes into Lance on that same climb. He escalated his "game" the next season.
Any of these guys placed on Lance's programs would have crushed on the pro level. They quit cycling after being offered contracts that included the proviso that "they would do whatever it took to be successful".
Our team also had USAC 4 Junior World TTT riders that quit cycling altogether when the clear option to continue was the same medical path. Each of them crushed Levi and Tyler at camps and US team-backed races. Those two clear cheats were refused seats on our amateur team while with the junior long-team under that coaching staff.
Other pros doping are just that. Take them off the drugs and you will see their real ability.

 

[Oldman]

What I find the most weird with Lance, Rasmussen Brunyel and the other life banned cyclists and DS is why on earth they have jumped on the wagon again so many years later. The world who hated them so much? How on earth is that they want back in?! I am just so fascinated by it as it feels so incredibly self destructive.

Money. They are useless as human beings unless they voluntarily came clean while there were still consequences instead of waiting after all the litigation and an opportunity to cry on Oprah's couch.

 

[Charlyghoul]

All of it doped. Doped as a junior tri-athlete, junior USAC cyclist and very much more so with Motorola, pre-Ferrari.
Pre-cancer: 2 different amateur teammates of mine beat him in pro TT's while being stagiares for two of his pro squads.
When he was a neo-pro my amateur team was only bested by Hincapie and the winner from Coors on the last, long hilltop finish. As a 40+ yo amateur domestique for that teammate I came in top 20 and put 5 minutes into Lance on that same climb. He escalated his "game" the next season.
Any of these guys placed on Lance's programs would have crushed on the pro level. They quit cycling after being offered contracts that included the proviso that "they would do whatever it took to be successful".
Our team also had USAC 4 Junior World TTT riders that quit cycling altogether when the clear option to continue was the same medical path. Each of them crushed Levi and Tyler at camps and US team-backed races. Those two clear cheats were refused seats on our amateur team while with the junior long-team under that coaching staff.
Other pros doping are just that. Take them off the drugs and you will see their real ability.

Well let’s say all world level riders are doped more or less.
Lance is/was still one of the best out of everyone. Lance was winnning the world champs at 21, when do you reckon he started doping ? I’m not doubting your particular race results but find it hard to believe any old amateur could destroy him like you seem to be implying.

Edit
Hincapie is also an admitted doper, how do you know he wasn’t doping in those races just the same as Lance, maybe even more so?

 

[noob]

Money. They are useless as human beings unless they voluntarily came clean while there were still consequences instead of waiting after all the litigation and an opportunity to cry on Oprah's couch.

So Ricco and Floyd etc had more integrity? It's how it comes off to me.

 

[Oldman]

Well let’s say all world level riders are doped more or less.
Lance is/was still one of the best out of everyone. Lance was winnning the world champs at 21, when do you reckon he started doping ? I’m not doubting your particular race results but find it hard to believe any old amateur could destroy him like you seem to be implying.

Edit
Hincapie is also an admitted doper, how do you know he wasn’t doping in those races just the same as Lance, maybe even more so?

You keep beating your argument against the hard truth. What Hincapie did at that younger age was not as apparent so I can't answer that question. He was the better rider that year. The rest of them were caught by the coaching staff as juniors and weren't allowed to go to international events or races where they'd be tested. Credit those low paid coaches for shielding riders that would end up helping their career. One constant came out of that era: Lance could never climb with Chris Horner and was scared to death of racing him. He and Ochowicz froze him out of the US Olympic selection because he was better and beat Lance's entire team at the Olympic trials, single handed. It was a beauty to behold. It wasn't until Horner needed money that he rode on a team with Lance; under the direction of Johan.

As for Old Amateurs; I was not unique in the slightest. You find it hard to believe yet your research suggests you haven't looked. Ask the Mods, ask other posters: "do you know a rider over 40 that could or did race at the pro level?"
I worked a long full time job and limited my travel/training/racing to events that made sense. We did race against most of the Commonwealth teams in BC. That means Canada, not before Christ. We had the same level of success; largely because there was testing at the Commonwealth Games, IMO. Mostly Canadian, Aussies, Kiwis and Pacific Rim countries.

 

[Oldman]

So Ricco and Floyd etc had more integrity? It's how it comes off to me.

By that metric, yes. By human standards Floyd most definitely. He took one for the greater team as well.

Something people brush under the historical carpet is how much Lance and his associates were willing to do to legally harass, threaten and litigate against truth tellers. What kind of sociopath is willing to destroy former friends and teammates that were forced to tell the truth? That makes him pretty much unique in history.
His organized cheating was also on the event level to gain more titles and money. He had to write checks as evidence of his guilt in those crimes. How many other racers or athletes have had to do that? That's big league fraud.

 

[Charlyghoul]

You keep beating your argument against the hard truth. What Hincapie did at that younger age was not as apparent so I can't answer that question. He was the better rider that year. The rest of them were caught by the coaching staff as juniors and weren't allowed to go to international events or races where they'd be tested. Credit those low paid coaches for shielding riders that would end up helping their career. One constant came out of that era: Lance could never climb with Chris Horner and was scared to death of racing him. He and Ochowicz froze him out of the US Olympic selection because he was better and beat Lance's entire team at the Olympic trials, single handed. It was a beauty to behold. It wasn't until Horner needed money that he rode on a team with Lance; under the direction of Johan.

As for Old Amateurs; I was not unique in the slightest. You find it hard to believe yet your research suggests you haven't looked. Ask the Mods, ask other posters: "do you know a rider over 40 that could or did race at the pro level?"
I worked a long full time job and limited my travel/training/racing to events that made sense. We did race against most of the Commonwealth teams in BC. That means Canada, not before Christ. We had the same level of success; largely because there was testing at the Commonwealth Games, IMO. Mostly Canadian, Aussies, Kiwis and Pacific Rim countries.

You literally just said it was apparent, that Hincapie was the only one to drop your amateurs…so he may have been doped or he may not have been.
Chris Horner, the apparently clean rider that won a grand tour 5 years older than anyone else who ever did…
Again I’m not doubting that you may have finished above Lance in some races.
Yes I know a few older pros, and I raced to a reasonable level up to the age of 19, as a junior I raced and finished ahead a few times of several guys who went on to be British level pros, there were always some guys who were far ahead, whether that was down to peds or natural talent I don’t know.

 

[Charlyghoul]

The entire era was an aberration built on largely criminal activity. The later part of Lancey's career had the UCI complicit along with his entire team in the fraud. Add in the Deutsche Telcom mob and you pretty much lack a comparable era of cheating.
Trying to "equalize" his achievements requires either naivete' or dishonesty from what I know of Lance's early years and the clean riders that not only could beat him; but were frozen out of the US Pro scene run by Ochowicz, Carmichael and the Don...Weisel. Powered by Ferrari had a different meaning then, too.
Pogacar, Primoz, Jonas, Remco all have to fight on a reasonably level field and it's a disservice to compare them. Opine as you must about Eddy and the Badger, etc. They were just better naturally than Lance as have been many. Maybe not as good as generating clickbait for poseurs but the internet didn't exist for the most part.

A disservice to compare Tadej, Jonas and Remco?
What about all the spoutings of unheard of w/kg numbers of these guys, even compared to Lance. And Lance was juiced to the gills yet you seem to be giving these current guys a pass?
How are they putting out these numbers if Lance and Ullrich were so dirty?

 

[noob]

Re USPS as a state owned company; state owned companies shouldn't own or sponsor cycling teams. Or any other sport. It simply shouldn't be allowed. The ramifications are too big if it fails. The risk of corruption is too big and when a team uses peds it reflects back on a whole country not just on the company.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Re USPS as a state owned company; state owned companies shouldn't own or sponsor cycling teams. Or any other sport. It simply shouldn't be allowed. The ramifications are too big if it fails. The risk of corruption is too big and when a team uses peds it reflects back on a whole country not just on the company.

Unfortunately usps and lance a victim of their own success.
You would see the same now if Pogacar had won all of the last 6 tours instead of only 4

 

[Oldman]

You literally just said it was apparent, that Hincapie was the only one to drop your amateurs…so he may have been doped or he may not have been.
Chris Horner, the apparently clean rider that won a grand tour 5 years older than anyone else who ever did…
Again I’m not doubting that you may have finished above Lance in some races.
Yes I know a few older pros, and I raced to a reasonable level up to the age of 19, as a junior I raced and finished ahead a few times of several guys who went on to be British level pros, there were always some guys who were far ahead, whether that was down to peds or natural talent I don’t know.

No. Hincapie was 2nd that day to a Coors rider. I've said I can't say he was doped, then. You use of English "literally just said it was apparent.." was not part of any sentence. You should admit what you don't know and separate it from what you wish to be. Or stay silent.

I also didn't suggest Horner was either clean or dirty at that time. He was better than Lance. Lance knew it.
His accomplishments would suggest that. What I do know and have witnessed outside of races can confirm his status but this is about Lance so I'll keep it to that subject. You don't get to know that information.

One of my teammates was a Pro but gave up his license to race Masters and secured a well-earned US National Crit Jersey. He was always clean. He was also on the British Olympic TTT team back in the day and raced with Hinault, although no GTs. He moved to the US to make a life and kept racing. This, all before I took out a license and he was my hero. He's now one of my good friends. He, along with the good fortune of the company of great young and talented guys that taught me quickly. We also learned that you own your effort through work without shortcuts and that's why we raced nearly 25 years in the same neighborhood. We also knew that racing in Europe almost guaranteed an encounter with the doping issue. Some embraced it; my teammates each, individually did not. I've noted on these forums before that it's a sports injustice that those 4, Cat 1 juniors quit because of the doping future. 2 of them were head and shoulders above Lance's team, all things being remotely equal.
Not anything more to discuss here.

 

[Oldman]

A disservice to compare Tadej, Jonas and Remco?
What about all the spoutings of unheard of w/kg numbers of these guys, even compared to Lance. And Lance was juiced to the gills yet you seem to be giving these current guys a pass?
How are they putting out these numbers if Lance and Ullrich were so dirty?

You are talking about another subject and another one you have little knowledge about.
While I don't know who is clean or dirty in today's peloton; it seems like you want to start another self-responding thread. Go at it.

 

[Charlyghoul]

No. Hincapie was 2nd that day to a Coors rider. I've said I can't say he was doped, then. You use of English "literally just said it was apparent.." was not part of any sentence. You should admit what you don't know and separate it from what you wish to be. Or stay silent.

I also didn't suggest Horner was either clean or dirty at that time. He was better than Lance. Lance knew it.
His accomplishments would suggest that. What I do know and have witnessed outside of races can confirm his status but this is about Lance so I'll keep it to that subject. You don't get to know that information.

One of my teammates was a Pro but gave up his license to race Masters and secured a well-earned US National Crit Jersey. He was always clean. He was also on the British Olympic TTT team back in the day and raced with Hinault, although no GTs. He moved to the US to make a life and kept racing. This, all before I took out a license and he was my hero. He's now one of my good friends. He, along with the good fortune of the company of great young and talented guys that taught me quickly. We also learned that you own your effort through work without shortcuts and that's why we raced nearly 25 years in the same neighborhood. We also knew that racing in Europe almost guaranteed an encounter with the doping issue. Some embraced it; my teammates each, individually did not. I've noted on these forums before that it's a sports injustice that those 4, Cat 1 juniors quit because of the doping future. 2 of them were head and shoulders above Lance's team, all things being remotely equal.
Not anything more to discuss here.

Quite a lot to discuss, unless we just take your word for it that you and your mates were levels above Armstrong.

No, you can’t say Hincapie doped or not at that age, because you don’t know.
Why should I stay silent?
One fact we do know is Hincapie never won anything in the pros despite admitting to doping, so how he is so much better than Lance ? The guy that won 7 tours ?
Good luck answering that one, maybe just stay silent ?

‘What I do know and have witnessed’ so basically you are saying you know Horner doped ? So he wasn’t better than Lance was he ?

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

So Ricco and Floyd etc had more integrity? It's how it comes off to me.

Hey man, easy on Il Cobra!!

As for FLandis, he will always have a special place with me, because he is the one who pulled the pin, and threw the grenade.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

By that metric, yes. By human standards Floyd most definitely. He took one for the greater team as well.

Something people brush under the historical carpet is how much Lance and his associates were willing to do to legally harass, threaten and litigate against truth tellers. What kind of sociopath is willing to destroy former friends and teammates that were forced to tell the truth? That makes him pretty much unique in history.
His organized cheating was also on the event level to gain more titles and money. He had to write checks as evidence of his guilt in those crimes. How many other racers or athletes have had to do that? That's big league fraud.

The cancer shield was infuriating to witness, and his sycophants were horrible to deal with. I received death threats (a guy threatened to kill me, and come rape my wife, on this forum), and a massive amount of hatred, as did anyone who dared speak against Cancer Jesus. The man himself was threatening toward me, and there is another member of this forum who tried to get personal information from several posters, to pass on to him. It was an incredibly toxic environment, and Lance was the source of the toxic sludge. There were entire forums (Slowtwitch being the worst), where suggesting the doper was doping, got you banned. If you were following and commenting on things during that time, and presented the reality that Cancer Jesus doped, you were in the minority, and you were going to be horribly harassed.

**** Lance Armstrong!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, after a few innocent threads on general topics and the somewhat benign hypothetical that started the thread, it seems the mask is fully off now. Lance Armstrong a "victim". Give us a break.

If just the mere fact of other people having doped is sufficient justification to write off all of the things Lance did to destroy people's lives in defence of his fraudulent legacy, then we may as well Ban Pro Cycling.

 

[Oldman]

The cancer shield was infuriating to witness, and his sycophants were horrible to deal with. I received death threats (a guy threatened to kill me, and come rape my wife, on this forum), and a massive amount of hatred, as did anyone who dared speak against Cancer Jesus. The man himself was threatening toward me, and there is another member of this forum who tried to get personal information from several posters, to pass on to him. It was an incredibly toxic environment, and Lance was the source of the toxic sludge. There were entire forums (Slowtwitch being the worst), where suggesting the doper was doping, got you banned. If you were following and commenting on things during that time, and presented the reality that Cancer Jesus doped, you were in the minority, and you were going to be horribly harassed.

**** Lance Armstrong!

I think we shared those experiences back then. Never got a death threat but got phone calls ????? and direct messages from a guy posing as Floyd. He couldn't answer the simplest question about him. Smells like old times.

 

[noob]

The cancer shield was infuriating to witness, and his sycophants were horrible to deal with. I received death threats (a guy threatened to kill me, and come rape my wife, on this forum), and a massive amount of hatred, as did anyone who dared speak against Cancer Jesus. The man himself was threatening toward me, and there is another member of this forum who tried to get personal information from several posters, to pass on to him. It was an incredibly toxic environment, and Lance was the source of the toxic sludge. There were entire forums (Slowtwitch being the worst), where suggesting the doper was doping, got you banned. If you were following and commenting on things during that time, and presented the reality that Cancer Jesus doped, you were in the minority, and you were going to be horribly harassed.

**** Lance Armstrong!

Omfg thanks for sharing! What a horrible legacy!

 

[Oldman]

Well, after a few innocent threads on general topics and the somewhat benign hypothetical that started the thread, it seems the mask is fully off now. Lance Armstrong a "victim". Give us a break.

If just the mere fact of other people having doped is sufficient justification to write off all of the things Lance did to destroy people's lives in defence of his fraudulent legacy, then we may as well Ban Pro Cycling.

We've all been through the occasional resurrection of this rider's history. It starts the same as some comparative justification to admire his "achievements". It then usually deteriorates into pure opinions based on little factual research. Seeing how this thread mimics others that have been generated recently it seems like we've all been punked by an ambitious post counter: someone that wants to gain eminence.

I'm embarrassed to have engaged this far but the subject is very close to home. Most of the counter dialogue falls far from anything but anxious probes to gain attention. Again, it's embarrassing.

 

[BubbaChuck]

nobody is defending lance,we are exposing others in that era,cause it was hilrius.thye are stilly lying today zero problem,real honest people.

 

[Charlyghoul]

We've all been through the occasional resurrection of this rider's history. It starts the same as some comparative justification to admire his "achievements". It then usually deteriorates into pure opinions based on little factual research. Seeing how this thread mimics others that have been generated recently it seems like we've all been punked by an ambitious post counter: someone that wants to gain eminence.

I'm embarrassed to have engaged this far but the subject is very close to home. Most of the counter dialogue falls far from anything but anxious probes to gain attention. Again, it's embarrassing.

Punked ?
What are you talking about?
I agree Lance was a ***, but he was a victim of his own success. If Pogacar had won 6 tours in a row there’d be the same accusations. Except there wouldn’t because cycling can’t have another Lance.

Maybe Lance was a *** because he knew everyone was doping, so why the hate for him? Most people would be angry in that situation.
He just did it what everyone else was doing better than everyone else.
He couldn’t really say ‘yes I’m doping but so is everyone else’ could he?
He had two options get angry / defensive or quit cycling.

I’ve asked you why you think Hincapie was a better rider at one stage, despite admitting doping in the pro peloton and never winning anything?
I find it hard to believe he had more natural talent than Armstrong…

You seem to imply that you know Horner doped ( apologies if I’m wrong)

 

[hrotha]

nobody is defending lance,we are exposing others in that era,cause it was hilrius.thye are stilly lying today zero problem,real honest people.

Armstrong was pretty much the last of his generation to be busted. Nobody needs to "expose others in that era"