What is so important about the Indiana Hospital "Incident"

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Jul 12, 2012
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Last night and tonight are merely publicity stunts in grand plan. Again, right now, I sincerely doubt, especially presuming Armstrong starts paying back money, that a criminal jury of 12 would convict him. Home Run Lance.

Why:

OJ.
Barry Bonds.
Roger Clemens.
John Edwards.

I would actuallybe angry if the US Government brought him to trial -- they would lose and it would now be a waste of resources better spent elsewhere, like prosecuting those guilty of firearms charges.
 
May 26, 2010
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Turner29 said:
Last night and tonight are merely publicity stunts in grand plan. Again, right now, I sincerely doubt, especially presuming Armstrong starts paying back money, that a criminal jury of 12 would convict him. Home Run Lance.

Why:

OJ.
Barry Bonds.
Roger Clemens.
John Edwards.

I would actuallybe angry if the US Government brought him to trial -- they would lose and it would now be a waste of resources better spent elsewhere, like prosecuting those guilty of firearms charges.
He admitted to doping. He was one owner of the team. Team mates eye witness testimoney to trafficking dope in his plane across borders. I think even his wife and Crow wouldn't lie in court for him.

OJ never admitted guilt. Armstrong did. Plenty of books about the sport. Plenty of evidence from Interpol and Italian police on Ferarri.

It would be a dirty trial by Armstrong and his shills but I can easily see a jury find him guilty. Be easy for a good lawyer to get the sociopath riled in court.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
An Amercian 'doping' in France can also come under 'drug trafficking' ;)
Yes. :D

Special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States defined
Release date: 2005-08-03

The term “special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States”, as used in this title, includes:

(1) The high seas, any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State, and any vessel belonging in whole or in part to the United States or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or of any State, Territory, District, or possession thereof, when such vessel is within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State.

(5) Any aircraft belonging in whole or in part to the United States, or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or any State, Territory, district, or possession thereof, while such aircraft is in flight over the high seas, or over any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
He admitted to doping. He was one owner of the team. Team mates eye witness testimoney to trafficking dope in his plane across borders. I think even his wife and Crow wouldn't lie in court for him.

OJ never admitted guilt. Armstrong did. Plenty of books about the sport. Plenty of evidence from Interpol and Italian police on Ferarri.

It would be a dirty trial by Armstrong and his shills but I can easily see a jury find him guilty. Be easy for a good lawyer to get the sociopath riled in court.
I am not talking about doping. I am talking about other charges.

He would not go on the witness stand.

Are you American?
 
Jul 12, 2012
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The reason I ask is that you seem oblivious to the difficulty prosecuting celebrities in the USA.
 
Turner29 said:
Last night and tonight are merely publicity stunts in grand plan. Again, right now, I sincerely doubt, especially presuming Armstrong starts paying back money, that a criminal jury of 12 would convict him. Home Run Lance.

Why:

OJ.
Barry Bonds.
Roger Clemens.
John Edwards.

I would actuallybe angry if the US Government brought him to trial -- they would lose and it would now be a waste of resources better spent elsewhere, like prosecuting those guilty of firearms charges.
Sorry. In this case the glove fits like a glove.

EDIT to add: Just wait until the prosecution plays both the taped SCA Deposition and the Oprah interview, and provides testimony from all of his teammates.

He will go down, in front of just about any jury.

Dave.
 
May 26, 2010
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4.5 million people watched Oprah last night. About 1.5% of the US population. Another 200,000 on line.

Be easy to find 12 people good and true who know 'little' about the guy and would not have seen Oprah.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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D-Queued said:
Sorry. In this case the glove fits like a glove.

Dave.
I am not saying it does not. All I am saying is that Lance Armstrong will not be prosecuted by the Federal Government, although there will be some settlement.

And not because of some Oprah calling Obama nonsense. This POTUS could not care less...
 
Jul 12, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
4.5 million people watched Oprah last night. About 1.5% of the US population. Another 200,000 on line.

Be easy to find 12 people good and true who know 'little' about the guy and would not have seen Oprah.
Defense counsels are great at picking jurors.
 
Turner29 said:
I am not saying it does not. All I am saying is that Lance Armstrong will not be prosecuted by the Federal Government, although there will be some settlement.

And not because of some Oprah calling Obama nonsense. This POTUS could not care less...
The actions of Birotte support your conclusion, unfortunately.

Someone should investigate him as well.

Dave.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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D-Queued said:
The actions of Birotte support your conclusion, unfortunately.

Someone should investigate him as well.

Dave.
Do you mean that Birotte came to the conclusion that he had a very strong case against Lance Armstrong but based upon the outcomes of the Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens trials decided against prosecution?

To me, that is clear. Then, Birotte picks up the phone and calls Tygart...
 
Turner29 said:
Do you mean that Birotte came to the conclusion that he had a very strong case against Lance Armstrong but based upon the outcomes of the Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens trials decided against prosecution?

To me, that is clear. Then, Birotte picks up the phone and calls Tygert...
You are giving him more credit than I am. I don't even know if he knows who Bonds and Clemens are. Who is Tygart?

Dave.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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D-Queued said:
You are giving him more credit than I am. I don't even know if he knows who Bonds and Clemens are. Who is Tygart?

Dave.
Bonds = Barry Bonds, Baseball player.
Clemens = Roger Clemens, Baseball player.

The highest profile Outfielder (Bonds) and Pitcher (Clemens) in the last 25 years of baseball. Both were tried on various charges pertaining to PED use, but not direct charges because sporting fraud is not a crime in the USA.

More important, Jeff Novitzky was the actual investigator in all three cases (Bonds, Clemens, Armstrong).

Clemens was found not guilty, even with direct physical evidence. Bonds was convicted of a minor offense and received a suspended sentence.

Tygart = Tyler Tygart. :eek:
 
Turner29 said:
Bonds = Barry Bonds, Baseball player.
Clemens = Roger Clemens, Baseball player.

The highest profile Outfielder (Bonds) and Pitcher (Clemens) in the last 25 years of baseball. Both were tried on various charges pertaining to PED use, but not direct charges because sporting fraud is not a crime in the USA.

More important, Jeff Novitzky was the actual investigator in all three cases (Bonds, Clemens, Armstrong).

Clemens was found not guilty, even with direct physical evidence. Bonds was convicted of a minor offense and received a suspended sentence.

Tygart = Tyler Tygart. :eek:
I realize that I may seem dim, but I am not an idiot.

As Forest Gump's mother used to say, stupid is as stupid does. Birotte did a stupid thing.

How do we know he knows who Bonds and Clemens are.

Has anyone pointed out to him that the three of them are the ABCs of American sport doping (Armstrong, Bonds, Clemens)?

Dave.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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D-Queued said:
I realize that I may seem dim, but I am not an idiot.

As Forest Gump's mother used to say, stupid is as stupid does. Birotte did a stupid thing.

How do we know he knows who Bonds and Clemens are.

Has anyone pointed out to him that the three of them are the ABCs of American sport doping (Armstrong, Bonds, Clemens)?

Dave.
I am not saying you are an idiot. You make very good points and we often agree.

But you must not be American. Barry Bond and Roger Clemens are BASEBALL PLAYERS. In America, Baseball is much, much bigger than Bicycling.

Barry Bonds is the #1 Home Run hitter of all-time. He is a household name in America. Every American adult knows of Barry Bonds.

Roger Clemens is the among the top 5 pitchers. He was a Boston Red Sox. He was a New York Yankee. Every American adult knows of Roger Clemens.

More important, as I said the same person who was the lead investigator in these cases was also the lead investigator on the Armstrong case.

But more important, you are doing Birotte, and yourself, a great deal of injustice to insist that a Federal Prosecutor (and his staff) would be unaware of these other high-profile cases against American sports figures, even without the Jeff Novitzky connection.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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D-Queued said:
I realize that I may seem dim, but I am not an idiot.

As Forest Gump's mother used to say, stupid is as stupid does. Birotte did a stupid thing.

Dave.
Please read my link and you will understand.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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D-Queued said:
...the three of them are the ABCs of American sport doping (Armstrong, Bonds, Clemens)?

Dave.
This is actually a good one. I need to remember it, as I loathe Clemens as much as Armstrong.

Bonds, I cut some slack.

And, I mean this sincerely -- despite all the evidence, had I been one of his jurors, I would have invoked the long standing American tradition of jury nullification and found Barry Bonds not guilty.
 
Turner29 said:
This is actually a good one. I need to remember it, as I loathe Clemens as much as Armstrong.

Bonds, I cut some slack.

And, I mean this sincerely -- despite all the evidence, had I been one of his jurors, I would have invoked the long standing American tradition of jury nullification and found Barry Bonds not guilty.
FYI - I lived in Boston when Roger played ball there. I know where Fenway is. Have seen the Green Monster firsthand. And recollect some story about a curse.

Dave.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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D-Queued said:
FYI - I lived in Boston when Roger played ball there. I know where Fenway is. Have seen the Green Monster firsthand. And recollect some story about a curse.

Dave.
Then how could you possibly say that Birotte would not know of the Bonds and Clemens cases. They were front page news everywhere.
 
58teeth said:
Sorry to start a new thread on this, but, I'm still unclear as to why the incident in the hospital is so critical to all of this. Is it just for Betsy's vindication, or, does it kick off a whole bunch of other things like, statute of limitations? He admitted last night to doping in the early 90s last night, so, not sure why the hospital discussion is still so important.

Any ideas?
The hospital incident is the seminal incident from which all future cheating by LA flows. By refusing to admit his admission to using PEDs while in the hospital it provided LA a platform to create the myth he competed clean and justify in his own mind he was not a doper. If he admits to the hospital incident his crediblity that he did not cheat, his mantra until Jan. 14, 2013 crumbles.

In addition he used this incident to attack the Andreiu's as liars in order to perpetuate his "clean" myth and garner spronsorship income. An admission would have ruined his income potential. In LA's perverted mind, by bullying and vicously attacking the character of Betsy Andreiu (in particular the allegation she was crazy) it focuses attention on her character as opposed to the real facts of the hospital incident, which were always objectively true.
 
May 13, 2012
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RobbieCanuck said:
The hospital incident is the seminal incident from which all future cheating by LA flows. By refusing to admit his admission to using PEDs while in the hospital it provided LA a platform to create the myth he competed clean and justify in his own mind he was not a doper. If he admits to the hospital incident his crediblity that he did not cheat, his mantra until Jan. 14, 2013 crumbles.

In addition he used this incident to attack the Andreiu's as liars in order to perpetuate his "clean" myth and garner spronsorship income. An admission would have ruined his income potential. In LA's perverted mind, by bullying and vicously attacking the character of Betsy Andreiu (in particular the allegation she was crazy) it focuses attention on her character as opposed to the real facts of the hospital incident, which were always objectively true.
The question assumes all that - it asks specifically why he refused to discuss the hospital incident, when he did admit to doping in the seven TDF wins, and being a bully. He is obviously carefully, but unconvincingly, picking and choosing admissions. Some have suggested it is to protect himself from perjury charges, but he is already protected from that in this specific instance by the statute of limitations. His lawyers may have identified some potential loopholes in the S.O.L. laws and advised him to be wary, or maybe he just forgot which things he has to keep lying about?
 
Turner29 said:
Then how could you possibly say that Birotte would not know of the Bonds and Clemens cases. They were front page news everywhere.
Gach.... it was satire, sarcasm, cynical commentary, a put down, a suggestion that the content had nothing to do with the decision, a suggestion that the whole thing was corrupt, a suggestion that Birotte was merely a puppet...

Sometimes I forget to add one of these: :rolleyes:

Now, if Birotte had any intelligence he would not have dropped the ball on the mastermind. Bonds didn't run a three ring circus doping empire and neither did Clemens. Both are pieces of crap, but they aren't borderline evil.:mad:

Dave.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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RobbieCanuck said:
The hospital incident is the seminal incident from which all future cheating by LA flows. By refusing to admit his admission to using PEDs while in the hospital it provided LA a platform to create the myth he competed clean and justify in his own mind he was not a doper. If he admits to the hospital incident his crediblity that he did not cheat, his mantra until Jan. 14, 2013 crumbles.

In addition he used this incident to attack the Andreiu's as liars in order to perpetuate his "clean" myth and garner spronsorship income. An admission would have ruined his income potential. In LA's perverted mind, by bullying and vicously attacking the character of Betsy Andreiu (in particular the allegation she was crazy) it focuses attention on her character as opposed to the real facts of the hospital incident, which were always objectively true.
The hospital incident occurred in 1996. The SCA case testimony given by Betsy Andreu was in 2006.

A more seminal moment was in 1999, when the UCI accepted a back-dated prescription from Armstrong's camp and did not expel him from the Tour.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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D-Queued said:
Gach.... it was satire, sarcasm, cynical commentary, a put down, a suggestion that the content had nothing to do with the decision, a suggestion that the whole thing was corrupt, a suggestion that Birotte was merely a puppet...

Sometimes I forget to add one of these: :rolleyes:

Now, if Birotte had any intelligence he would not have dropped the ball on the mastermind. Bonds didn't run a three ring circus doping empire and neither did Clemens. Both are pieces of crap, but they aren't borderline evil.:mad:

Dave.
I think you are back filling because your statements clearly showed you had no clue regarding the magnitude and implications of the Bonds and Clemens cases, regardless of your living in Boston...

Birotte is intelligent. He knows what he is doing. ;)
 

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