What should Paul Kimmage ask TeamSky?

[Anonymous]

And in the article over the winter, Kimmage more or less told DB straight out, that he did not believe in him.

now you really need to go find a link

 

[Mambo95]

And in the article over the winter, Kimmage more or less told DB straight out, that he did not believe in him.

No, he didn't. He did exactly the opposite. Here's an extract

“I admire what you’ve done on the track,” I say, “but I really don’t understand why you’re doing this.”

“Right,” he says, “but I’ve got to be able to . . .” He pauses and fixes me with a gaze. “Am I a cheat?” he asks.

“No, and I’m not suggesting you are.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article6926944.ece

 

[Anonymous]

No, he didn't. He did exactly the opposite. Here's an extract

“I admire what you’ve done on the track,” I say, “but I really don’t understand why you’re doing this.”

“Right,” he says, “but I’ve got to be able to . . .” He pauses and fixes me with a gaze. “Am I a cheat?” he asks.

“No, and I’m not suggesting you are.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article6926944.ece

i remember that article well, i just had no recollection of anything that digger referred to. Still dont.

 

[Winterfold]

No, Kimmage did catch DB out on something - it was a bit of a logic trap rather than anything substantial - they were talking about Millar. here's the link http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article6926944.ece

Benotti69 - I think we disagreeing to agree I have mega-respect for Kimmage and dont think he would sell out but that is different to doing a good job for the boss and not having to compromise because circumstances do not require you to.

The Millar/Kimmage narrative has been an interesting one to follow - I think they like each other again now. That makes me think Millar is racing clean, I just think Kimmage would sniff him out in an instant - having been there, done that.

EDIT that will teach me to read to the end of a thread before replying...

FURTHER EDIT reading the whole article, I think Digger's summary is not far off. It's a fecking great piece of journalism, Kimmage is a superb interviewer and storyteller

 

[bobbins]

Kimmage should ask Brailsford if he would cover up a missed dope control for a rider he knows is clean.

 

[Benotti69]

...

Benotti69 - I think we disagreeing to agree I have mega-respect for Kimmage and dont think he would sell out but that is different to doing a good job for the boss and not having to compromise because circumstances do not require you to.

......

Ok Winterfold. I for one think because of his route into journalism he is a 'clean' journo.

 

[Roland Rat]

i remember that article well, i just had no recollection of anything that digger referred to. Still dont.

He's probably remembering the "Is it better to do the right thing or be seen to be doing the right thing" bit, but giving it his own interpretation based on his own preconceptions.

 

[Benotti69]

He's probably remembering the "Is it better to do the right thing or be seen to be doing the right thing" bit, but giving it his own interpretation based on his own preconceptions.

Brailsford and his wife were in Nice sitting outside a cafe having a coffee with Millar when the phone call came to say the police were in his apartment. Brailsford legged it and when asked was he there he lied..

Kimmage asked him about it when he interviewed him. He said to Brailsford that his reasons for lying don't add up and the Kimmage did not believe him..

can't link the article anymore without forking out £1 for subscription per day.

 

[Cobblestones]

One think Kimmage could ask (and he might get an honest answer) is to see hard numbers. Weight of riders, power meter readings etc.

 

[Digger]

"He can sense I am not convinced.

A week later, we begin exchanging texts.

Me: “Question: Is there a difference between doing the right thing and being seen to do the right thing?”

Him: “Good point — the only way is to do the right thing regardless of being seen or not.”

Me: “Just thinking out loud . . .”

Him: “I agree with your thoughts but it is hopefully the one thing I will do, ie have a value-and-belief system and actually live by it!”

Me: “Here’s my take on it: you did the right thing by standing by David in Biarritz. You are being seen to do the right thing by not signing him now.”

He does not reply."

These are not the words of a journalist who believes in Sky. Maybe this will change over the three weeks. Could be interesting with Sean Yates though. They sahred a room wiht Fagor and Kimmage commented on Yates being clean. However, PK went back to the tour a few years ago an said that he saw a former team mate, who was clean, now in charge of a team of cheats. He said, I thought you were one of the good guys. SOo pardon me for wanting to vomit when I see him working with Sky.

 

[Benotti69]

However, PK went back to the tour a few years ago an said that he saw a former team mate, who was clean, now in charge of a team of cheats. He said, I thought you were one of the good guys. SOo pardon me for wanting to vomit when I see him working with Sky.

He is not working 'with' Sky. He is writing about Sky. So hold that vomit till you see what he writes

 

[Mambo95]

"He can sense I am not convinced.

You're quoting out of context here. Why didn't you quote the passage immediately preceding this quote so we can see what he wasn't convinced by? Is it because what he's actually not convinced by is Brailsford's belief that the Tour can be won clean, and nothing to do with Brailsford himself? Because that wouldn't support you arguement at all.

I'll do the quoting for you:

“Do you know 85% of those who have won the Tour de France since Tommy Simpson’s death [in 1967] have been implicated in doping?”

“I know,” he replies.

“So when you say, ‘We can do this clean’, that’s a pretty big call.”

“Well, you’ve got to believe in something, otherwise what’s the point? Let’s all pack up and go home. How far was Brad from being on the podium in last year’s Tour [2009]? Not far. Can he improve on that? Who knows? But he certainly has the ability to and, given the right conditions, it could be done. And if it could be done, somebody should try. ... Everybody thinks it’s ridiculous but being the No 1-ranked nation [on the track] when we started in 1998 seemed just as ridiculous.”

He can sense I am not convinced.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He is not working 'with' Sky. He is writing about Sky. So hold that vomit till you see what he writes

Digger was talking about Yates - not Kimmage.

You're quoting out of context here. Why didn't you quote the passage immediately preceding this quote so we can see what he wasn't convinced by? Is it because what he's actually not convinced by is Brailsford's belief that the Tour can be won clean, and nothing to do with Brailsford himself? Because that wouldn't support you arguement at all.

I'll do the quoting for you:

<snipped for brevity>. [/I]

When you put the 2 quotes together its pretty apparent that PK is not convinced and the text exchange was to help him understand DB's comments better.
The way the article ended suggests that Kimmage was not reassured by the responce.

 

[Benotti69]

Digger was talking about Yates - not Kimmage.

when Digger says 'him' i presumed his was referring to PK as he was in the previous sentence. If i got it wrong, sorry Digger. My mistake. Please go ahead and vomit.

 

[Mambo95]

When you put the 2 quotes together its pretty apparent that PK is not convinced and the text exchange was to help him understand DB's comments better.
The way the article ended suggests that Kimmage was not reassured by the responce.

Which two quotes? And what is Kimmage not convinced by?

I was replying to Digger's efforts to use a quote out of context to try and back up his original comment "And in the article over the winter, Kimmage more or less told DB straight out, that he did not believe in him. ", when in fact he said to Brailsford that he didn't think he was a cheat (and if this was a lie he wouldn't have printed it).

It's not uncommon for people to take a preconcieved position on an issue and then try and misrepresent or misinfer information to suit their arguements.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Which two quotes? And what is Kimmage not convinced by?

I was replying to Digger's efforts to use a quote out of context to try and back up his original comment "And in the article over the winter, Kimmage more or less told DB straight out, that he did not believe in him. ", when in fact he said to Brailsford that he didn't think he was a cheat (and if this was a lie he wouldn't have printed it).

It's not uncommon for people to take a preconceived position on an issue and then try and misrepresent or misinfer information to suit their arguements.

And your preconceived position is....? Do you know 'Diggers' preconceived position? From memory - he (Digger) never made a comment on DB or Sky before this article.

The quotes I was referring to were yours & 'Diggers'.
Yes -Kimmage says he is not calling DB a cheat in the middle of the interview, but after a lengthly debate (4 hour interview) is not convinced - ie he has not made up his mind.

He then texts some thoughts he had that were outstanding and he does not sound reassured with DB's response.

 

[MacRoadie]

Which two quotes? And what is Kimmage not convinced by?

He's not convinced you can still get Denny's famous Grand Slam breakfast for only $5.99...

 

[Mambo95]

Well Kimmage thinks Wiggins (and Vande Velde) is clean at least...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-calls-for-uci-transparency

 

[Mambo95]

And your preconceived position is....? Do you know 'Diggers' preconceived position? From memory - he (Digger) never made a comment on DB or Sky before this article.

My preconcieved position on pretty much anything is that I don't know and I'll see what the facts suggest. After several years of Brailsford being around, I think he's honest and on the level.

I only said 'some people' have preconcieved, not Digger, although there was obviously some implication there, as he had presented a 'fact' that wasn't actually true (that Kimmage told Brailsford that he didn't believe him).

Anyway, Kimmage seems to think Wiggins (and Vande Velde) is clean at least

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-calls-for-uci-transparency

 

[Dr. Maserati]

My preconceived position on pretty much anything is that I don't know and I'll see what the facts suggest. After several years of Brailsford being around, I think he's honest and on the level.

I only said 'some people' have preconceived, not Digger, although there was obviously some implication there, as he had presented a 'fact' that wasn't actually true (that Kimmage told Brailsford that he didn't believe him).

Anyway, Kimmage seems to think Wiggins (and Vande Velde) is clean at least

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-calls-for-uci-transparency

Wow - timing is everything!

Ya - I would concur with your interpretation on what PK says on BW & CVV which would suggest he was impressed with Garmin in 2008.

But as I said earlier - it would be interesting to know how Garmin & Sky 'contrast & compare' - ie access to riders, rooms all the staff.

Regarding preconceived notions - well yes, we all harbor them -but they can be challanged with new or better information.
I had limited info on DB before that interview and quite frankly I was unimpressed that he continued working with David Millar even though he had "suspicions", the interview did little to restore my confidence in him.

My interpretation of the PK interview with DB was that PK needed more convincing - and I would rather a sceptical Kimmage covering the team than a cheerleader.

 

[Benotti69]

Wow - timing is everything!

Ya - I would concur with your interpretation on what PK says on BW & CVV which would suggest he was impressed with Garmin in 2008.

But as I said earlier - it would be interesting to know how Garmin & Sky 'contrast & compare' - ie access to riders, rooms all the staff.

Regarding preconceived notions - well yes, we all harbor them -but they can be challanged with new or better information.
I had limited info on DB before that interview and quite frankly I was unimpressed that he continued working with David Millar even though he had "suspicions", the interview did little to restore my confidence in him.

My interpretation of the PK interview with DB was that PK needed more convincing - and I would rather a sceptical Kimmage covering the team than a cheerleader.

Kimmage also said he thought the 2008 tour was pretty clean, but then he also said he thought Kohl was clean and he said look how wrong he was.

An interesting point he made was that no scandals usually mean a dirty tour

Brailsford's behaviour over D Millar has serious question marks over it and i agree with the good Dr Maserati, it leaves little confidence in Brailsford...

 

[Thee_chisa]

"why have you grown those ridiculous sideburns"?

 

[MacRoadie]

"Why does Rupert Murdoch love cancer so much?"

 

[Digger]

My preconcieved position on pretty much anything is that I don't know and I'll see what the facts suggest. After several years of Brailsford being around, I think he's honest and on the level.

I only said 'some people' have preconcieved, not Digger, although there was obviously some implication there, as he had presented a 'fact' that wasn't actually true (that Kimmage told Brailsford that he didn't believe him).

Anyway, Kimmage seems to think Wiggins (and Vande Velde) is clean at least

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-calls-for-uci-transparency

Mambo I stand by exactly what I have said. There is no way anyone can read that article and come away thinking that PK believes in Sky. Again that may very well change. But the tone from start to finish is scepticism in DB, his history, his dealings with Millar. In no way was this dissuaded, as evidenced by the final comment.

And yes I was referring to Sean Yates working with Sky. I mean FFS.

 

[Digger]

My preconcieved position on pretty much anything is that I don't know and I'll see what the facts suggest. After several years of Brailsford being around, I think he's honest and on the level.

I only said 'some people' have preconcieved, not Digger, although there was obviously some implication there, as he had presented a 'fact' that wasn't actually true (that Kimmage told Brailsford that he didn't believe him).
Anyway, Kimmage seems to think Wiggins (and Vande Velde) is clean at least

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kimmage-calls-for-uci-transparency

Do you honestly think PK believes him from this article?

He also treats DB with disdain for his version of the DM incident, and his subsequent treatment of same rider. If you don't want to see that, because you like DB, then your'e the one wiht the 'preconceived' notions.