Whats a Soccer/Football program look like?

[carl spackler]

Just wondering if anyone knows. Been curious watching the world cup.

 

[The Hitch]

Very good question. I really would like to know the same thing.

 

[happychappy]

Whatever is pumping through Wayne Roony to get his lard **** around the football pitch at that speed must be pretty strong.

 

[bc_hills]

Just wondering if anyone knows. Been curious watching the world cup.

What is it about any performance you've seen that suggests a person would need PEDs to achieve it? Roony aside.

 

[workingclasshero]

the only thing they'd take would be hgh to shed fat and build muscles to look good.


most of them don't care enough about performing well to bother with epo or blood doping

 

[carl spackler]

What is it about any performance you've seen that suggests a person would need PEDs to achieve it? Roony aside.

my curiosity isnt based so much on individual performances, but rather more on puerto rumors and previous cases. it does seem as though there are some pretty impressive physical specimens out there - not that that alone is sufficient evidence.

i have to believe that if there is an edge to be gained, someone will go for it. just wondering what that edge might be, and how it would be gained. we get a pretty clear picture from Landis and Papp and others of different methods, i wonder if anyone has a clear picture of other sports based on some inside knowledge or experience.

not looking to dope myself either by the way.

 

[The Hitch]

luckyboy posted on a similar thread this link 2 days ago

proof that juventus including zidane, davids, roberto baggio, vialli were doping

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/27/sports/27iht-juve_ed3_.html?_r=2

also Messi moved to catalunia at a young age to get "hormone treatment" and the game is far more physical and faster than it was before.

 

[carl spackler]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/27/sp...ed3_.html?_r=2

thanks for this link, i remember reading this way back when but not much has come out since this. are there organized programs you think? peaking for the world cup?

 

[carl spackler]

Soccer clean for 16 years?

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-...sitives-4th-straight-world-cup?cc=5901&ver=us

Just saw this on ESPN site

No positive tests for four straight world cups.

 

[carl spackler]

Soccer clean for 12 years?

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-...sitives-4th-straight-world-cup?cc=5901&ver=us

Just saw this on ESPN site

No positive tests for four straight world cups.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

a timely topic.

it seems to me they'd need a similar program to a cyclist. epo/transfusions for endurance. hgh and testosterone for recovery. at least one type of anabolic steroid for muscle growth, but not the same dosage a body builder or american footballer might use.

the only difference it seems would be that footie controls are much less stringent. i think they could go to 60% hct no problem. it should be easy to mask the steroids. but i don't know enough about the controls to say for sure.

another major difference i just thought of is how to manage the blood withdrawals/infusions. since footballers play usually year round it must be hard to find good times to do this. i expect this is pretty easy to get around. but you probably have to count on some "off" games.

my guess is they just use epo. i don't know that they even test for it.

i'm just brainstorming.

 

[spanky wanderlust]

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-...sitives-4th-straight-world-cup?cc=5901&ver=us

Just saw this on ESPN site

No positive tests for four straight world cups.

great. it's good to see that there are clean sports out there like soccer and american football. not like those dastardly cyclists!

 

[doxter]

football has had doping convictions , doping programs and tests being avoided and indeed deaths in you active athletes.

why would anyone imagine there is no doping going on

 

[180mmCrank]

In answer to the original post...seemed topical for some reason too...

 

[Anonymous]

football has had doping convictions , doping programs and tests being avoided and indeed deaths in you active athletes.

why would anyone imagine there is no doping going on

Rio ferdinand being a case in point..

I think we can safely say the England team are clean, or if they are doping they really need a new program.

 

[Straßenrennen]

zee germans have a program of unrivaled power!

Btw, does anyone else think that maradona could actually find a suit that didnt make him look a small fat teletubbie?

 

[ferryman]

a timely topic.

it seems to me they'd need a similar program to a cyclist. epo/transfusions for endurance. hgh and testosterone for recovery. at least one type of anabolic steroid for muscle growth, but not the same dosage a body builder or american footballer might use.

the only difference it seems would be that footie controls are much less stringent. i think they could go to 60% hct no problem. it should be easy to mask the steroids. but i don't know enough about the controls to say for sure.

another major difference i just thought of is how to manage the blood withdrawals/infusions. since footballers play usually year round it must be hard to find good times to do this. i expect this is pretty easy to get around. but you probably have to count on some "off" games.

my guess is they just use epo. i don't know that they even test for it.

i'm just brainstorming.

Oh for a brainstorm like this for once at work. How many post-its would it take

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You want stuff on football?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2388078/Arsenal-players-used-EPO-says-Wenger.html
- Arsenal manager Arsène Wenger is convinced teams he bought players from were doping them

http://www.thetruefootball.com/2009/07/are-footballers-above-doping-suspicion.html
- a very interesting blog post about football's reaction to Operación Puerto

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7721593.stm
- PFA (players' association) resists attempts to bring testing in football in line with WADA code

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/mar/15/drugs-in-football-david-james
- England goalkeeper David James rambles about how football has no doping problem as the number of positive tests is so low but admits only being tested once or twice a season, and that Arsène Wenger has complained that some of his players have been playing for five years without being tested once

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article7069717.ece
- Times article including the following doozies of fun facts about how clean soccer is:
> 2 British league teams have been fined for repeat offences in failing to inform testers of players' whereabouts
> players are not allowed to miss three tests in an 18-month period, but are allowed to miss tests. So if you're tested 1 or 2 times a season as David James said in the other article, you could easily cover a long time. In fact, if you're like the Arsenal players who weren't tested in 5 years, then you could conceivably be tested three times in ten years, not turn up to any of them, and not be sanctioned!
> From Jan.2008 to Aug.2009, 96 British league footballers failed to show up to a test. An additional 2 footballers failed to turn up to two tests.
> There are 92 league teams in England and Wales. 35 of these are on at least one strike for failing to provide whereabouts info, of which 13 have two strikes.
> The heaviest suspension ever provided for a doping violation in the UK football community was Rio Ferdinand, who was banned 8 months for skipping a drugs test by running away.

Doping is institutionalised in soccer. If anything, it's worse than in cycling, since the biggest stars are known dopers, don't serve suspensions, and nobody even cares.

 

[ferryman]

zee germans have a program of unrivaled power!

Btw, does anyone else think that maradona could actually find a suit that didnt make him look a small fat teletubbie?

Yes, but when you are greatest ever to grace a football pitch you get away with things

 

[The Hitch]

You want stuff on football?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2388078/Arsenal-players-used-EPO-says-Wenger.html
- Arsenal manager Arsène Wenger is convinced teams he bought players from were doping them

Wouldnt that mean though that wenger- in charge of one of the most succesful clubs, doesnt dope his players. and if arsenal arent doping their players, you have to question how beneficial doping is in football, considering their success.

Also would you agree with my thesis libertine seguros, that messi growth hormone treatment from 13 to 19 at the barca academy = doping?

Also if the doping is being administered by clubs, does that mean they dont do it at the world cup? or do national teams have their own doping programmes in place. And why arent more players dying, considering how many world famous players there are- thousands. was foes death suspicious?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And why arent more players dying, considering how many world famous players there are- thousands. was foes death suspicious?

Number of footballers dying on field because of heart-related failure -
1970s: 4
1980s: 4
1990s: 8
2000s: 22

Make of that what you will, but the number of players dying has shot up. Because football isn't an 'endurance' sport but a 'skill' sport, perhaps the doping doesn't need to be on the same level. After all, you can have all the endurance in the world, but if you can't shoot straight or make a tackle you'll still lose. Which is why it's certainly possible that Arsenal don't dope yet are still successful. But yet, Arsenal haven't won the league or the Champions' League in many years now. Perhaps Wenger isn't prepared to cross that line; he's shown himself to be one of the more moral characters in the game at times before, so it's possible. But plenty of other people are - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Sevilla and Valencia are mentioned in Fuentes' files, for example. Also, Wenger might have his players on a lesser program, or even a heavier one, and is speaking in terms of care, the same way as Cunego was making comments that implied his own doping in the past but avoided an actual admission lest he be made a scapegoat. This would only be mudslinging - I have no dirt on Wenger, but his comments support the view that many top-level footballers and football clubs at least tacitly accept doping.

On the success with or without doping matter, a game only lasts 90 minutes. 120 in some cases. Even in the ultra-intense christmas period you'll have a maximum of four games in a 10-day period. In cycling, you're doing 4 hours on average every day for three weeks in a Grand Tour! The comparative dosage requirement would presumably be lower accordingly.

Also, several substances that are illegal in cycling are commonplace in football. It's almost every week that we hear of injured players soldiering on thanks to a cortisone injection. That would net you a two-year ban if your feet were meant for pedalling, not for kicking.

 

[Kender]

all this BS about football being a skill sport not an enduro sport so there is no doping is a smokescreen

Every premier league level player has skills. if they didn't have skills they wouldn't be there.

alot of B grade (or 2nd division or whatever you want to call it) also have the skills to play in the premier leagues but need the opportunaty to get into a team. add EPO for the ability to go hard for the full game(not to mention training) and you have the potential to go up a grade (to premier or even international level) or maintain your current position if you're under threat.

we're talking 10's of millions of dollar contracts at stake in some cases or at least multi millions. would you take risks to chase those contracts or maintain them? cycling has proven that dopers will even chase a $100k+ contract let alone 100 times that.

p.s. there are more drugs than just EPO for endurance that would have an effect also

 

[Libertine Seguros]

all this BS about football being a skill sport not an enduro sport so there is no doping is a smokescreen

Nah, no smokescreen, I was just saying that because football is a skill sport not an enduro sport, the games go on for less time, and thus the required dosage to make the difference isn't as high.

 

[The Hitch]

Nah, no smokescreen, I was just saying that because football is a skill sport not an enduro sport, the games go on for less time, and thus the required dosage to make the difference isn't as high.

Football is a skill sport to an extent, but only up to a certain level. What players need is a certain level of control and accuracy with their feet, which they pick up at the academies. However once that is achieved power and speed become the most important qualities.

100 m sprinting isnt an endurance sport, but i think next to this thing of ours it is the most tarnished sport by doping. The doping there targets speed rather than endurance.
And strength sports are also rife with doping, only there the doping targets strenght.

While you are right that drugs that help endurance arent as needed in football i think anything that simply increases your physical capabilities would be of huge benefit, and thats probably the sort of thing we should be looking at instead, when assesing doping in football.

 

[FKLance]

I have no time to read this article now but I thought I would still bring this to your attention

"No systematic doping in football"

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a789548130&fulltext=713240928

What do you think of this?
Though I have always believed football has a clear doping problem.